War #10 - Market Prices

[Physsion]

War #10 - Market Prices


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1i-Elvr7MGhluZpL0fqSGgY_CZmcFSoPooBDMuzNHlq8/edit#gid=0

[serprex]

As of the time of writing, Ith column is:

Code: [Select]

arrayformula(if(mod(row(A2:A472),2)=1,"",IF(D2:D472="Quanta", 0, CEILING((12*log(12*G2:G472*(L2:L472^3+(H2:H472+H3:H473)/3+G2)/(log(E2:E472+E3:E473+8, 2)+(28-H2:H472-H3:H473))+12, 2)-36)*if(and(B2:B472<>"Nymph's Tears",isnumber(find("Nymph",B2:B472))),1.3,1)))))

which in less spreadsheet-cell-names means..

Pillars cost 0,
Nymphs cost 130% of what's to be described
Frequency is the number of decks which contained the card. We double frequency for Nymphs & Shards,
The final result is rounded up,

This leaves us with the core:
12*log(12*(G*(L^3+H/3+G))/(log(E+8, 2)+(28-H))+12, 2)-36
E = Total usage of card
G = Number of decks using card
H = Quanta cost of unupped plus upped
L = Number of teams which used this card at some point


[mrpaper]

It seems to be mostly the prices of last war with a few changes... most of the work war done last war so I guess it's good. 

Also, it's great you guys made the usage of all the cards, it shows what people see as a bargain or too costy.  I don't know if it is the intention, but it also shows which elements we're the less used by others (hello life!).  So many of these cards should have a lower price to make them more attractive.  Lastly, it shows which cards we're totally ignored... so all of those should have a price set a bit or a lower if we want some changes in the meta of the war (not 50% off though),  as opposite to what you did to immortal as it is a lame card if you don't have sow to go with it (as long as sow remains costy of course).  I could say the same about the Seraph as well too which was used only once and should not received a bumped price!  I won't name em all here but it's easy to find all of them!

I think that cards that we're used by pretty much everyone we're seen as too good too pass on by too many so they should have a little higher price.

As for the prices changes so far.... devourers is a GREAT asset and should have it's price put higher.. not lowered.... I don't know if it was a mistake here.... but it is great with devtal,devquake, sopa duo and in every dark mono... see last war result as a proof!!

Lastly, last war light had too much high price cards while gravy had too much low price cards... as a whole it should be adressed in a way or another.

 

[mrpaper]

As of the time of writing, Ith column is:

Code: [Select]

if(mod(row(),2)=1,"",IF(D4="Quanta", 0, CEILING((12*log(12*(G4*(L4+1+(H4+H5)/3+G4))/(log(E4+E5+8, 2)+(28-H4-H5))+12, 2)-36)/if(and(H4=1,B4<>"Vampire Stiletto"),2,1)*if(and(B4<>"Nymph's Tears",isnumber(find("Nymph",B4))),1.3,1))))which in less spreadsheet-cell-names means..

Code: [Select]

Pillars cost 0,
Nymphs cost 130% of what's to be described
1-cost cards cost 50% of what's described (except for you, Vampire Stiletto)
Frequency is the number of decks which contained the card. We double frequency for Nymphs & Shards,
The final result is rounded up,

This leaves us with the core:
12*log(12*(G*(L+1+H/3+G))/(log(E+8, 2)+(28-H))+12, 2)-36
E = Total usage of card
G = Number of decks using card
H = Quanta cost


why the 130% and 50% rules?  Yo wan't nymph to be so hard to play?  And why double the frequency?

[serprex]

Nymphs were overpriced last war, leading to less frequent use, & their scarcity increases that infrequency of use. Nymphs are underused in War for reasons unrelated to their power level. The goal of the modification is to have Nymph Queen cost a bit more than Nymph's Tears. Previously Golden Nymph was going for 36. & yes, it's preferable that nymphs be overpriced rather than underpriced to maintain beginner friendliness of the event

I've removed the 1-cost bonus tho, as you're right, it's a bit arbitrary, the formula itself should reflect the low power level of 1-cost cards & SoPa's a redeemer

[Jenkar]

I'm curious as to the lack of arrayformula?

Code: [Select]

arrayformula(if(mod(row(A2:A472),2)=1,"",IF(D2:D472="Quanta", 0, CEILING((12*log(12*G2:G472*(L2:L472^3+(H2:H472+H3:H473)/3+G2)/(log(E2:E472+E3:E473+8, 2)+(28-H2:H472-H3:H473))+12, 2)-36)*if(and(B2:B472<>"Nymph's Tears",isnumber(find("Nymph",B2:B472))),1.3,1)))))

[mrpaper]

Also, I saw you made an average cost card per element.. while it is fun to look at... it doesn't mean much unless you would do an average that would weight the number of time the card is used.  I mean sure having skeleton,aflatoxin, vulture and boneyard helps death average.. but they we're not used at all in war, while virus was not used much...  On the other hand, arsenic cost a ton and was used a lot!  So you can't really count average that way.

Also, I haven't heard anything from you guys about helping the elements that can't get any or very few in elements salvaging because other teams don't use em.  Aka a good stat would be to have the total of teams using cards from each element (outside of the in-element team).

I don't like much the dragon stat to justify the prices... the black dragon is clearly the better one because it meshes the better with pu and is a possible good combo with liquid shadow/black nymph.  While on the other hand phase dragon was not used at all and you just made the price go over 600% of last war!!  an algo won't justify everything for cards... it needs to be in line of how useful the card can be.  Otherwise, team darkness will pack tons of black dragons and team aether won't even spend a second talking about aether dragons.  Same could be said about air dragons being very powerful with sky blitz and that is receiving a big nerf in price that is unneeded.

Lastly I'd like to hear about nerfing the price of the totally (or mostly) unused cards from last war to help moving the meta a bit.  As nothing was done about that and seraph price is still put higher then last war too .

[serprex]

Dragon example is a bad example for arguing against algo; the algo is a generally impartial estimate. Dragons were normalized; algo thinks Phase Dragon should cost 8 because the algo says any card that was never used last war should cost 8. IANAWM so I'll refrain from discussing the modifications column; the few suggestions I made there have their cells highlighted

Helping elements with in element salvage is a topic that's a bit outside the scope of market prices

I'll see if I can get put together a weighted average cost (done)

[mrpaper]

here is some thoughts on the new prices...
I won't justify em one by one for now but will if needed...

black and azure dragon, price too low, phase dragon price too high.

nymph.. all seems good, but blue is the best one... not by that much, should be closer to other prices.

graviton mercenary, forest spirit, seraph, immortal and shrieker... have a price too high, chrysaora, dragonfly have a price too low.

trident price is too high.

antimatter price too high, while pandemonium, thunderstorm, mind flayer, and rain of fire all have a price too low.

emerald shield price is a bit too high.

for the rest I agree with what you guys have come up with!

[Physsion]

I'm working on manually balancing the prices every day, with community feedback from a pretty wide range of players. Everything in this spreadsheet is subject to change on what's basically an hourly basis.

I really appreciate the comments in this thread so far, but it may be easier to pop into chat and message me directly - I just don't want you to feel like your time analyzing the prices isn't worthwhile. Thank you so much, regardless!

I'll post a notification here when we begin approaching a finished list - hopefully within the next couple of days.

[mrpaper]

I'm working on manually balancing the prices every day, with community feedback from a pretty wide range of players. Everything in this spreadsheet is subject to change on what's basically an hourly basis.

I really appreciate the comments in this thread so far, but it may be easier to pop into chat and message me directly - I just don't want you to feel like your time analyzing the prices isn't worthwhile. Thank you so much, regardless!

I'll post a notification here when we begin approaching a finished list - hopefully within the next couple of days.

thanks... I know you take care of the feedback.. I can't often pop into chat unfortunately but I can write stuff here and there when I get a minute or 2!  Thanks again for all the work to make this war as fair as possible!

[Physsion]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1i-Elvr7MGhluZpL0fqSGgY_CZmcFSoPooBDMuzNHlq8/edit#gid=702717790

These prices are not final! This is a work in progress.

Looking for feedback from Generals and other players alike. If anything appears extremely over or underpriced, please let me know. I'll make an announcement when we lock in the final prices.



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