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Offline serprex

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Re: War #9 - General Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59205.msg1214001#msg1214001
« Reply #60 on: November 08, 2015, 12:14:18 am »
There was a time when multiple subs were mandatory to penalize. Then some teams started to sub in order to avoid having to play as many games the following round

Offline rob77dp

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Re: War #9 - General Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59205.msg1214003#msg1214003
« Reply #61 on: November 08, 2015, 12:30:07 am »
Spoiler for big quote:
So...

These aren't just my sentiments, but are a collection from quiet a few people I've brought this up to. I'm sure you've all been noticing a trend where a few particular teams have been subbing their teammates' games like there's no tomorrow, usually with the general or the most veteran players as well. While I'm not suggesting teams are doing it on purpose in order to boost the probability of winning a match due to skill (though there's a positive correlation to newbie players and who are being subbed out), this at the very least creates an unfairness to their opponents - Newbies will make more mistakes in playing their decks, and part of War's spirit is integrating newbies into competent PvP players with the mentorship of the general and the veterans on the team. Thus, this incessant subbing is getting ridiculous; there literally were only 2 players on a team playing all 5 of the team's matches at some point.

With all this in mind, teams who don't sub (my team, in fact, has not employed ANY subs this whole War up till this juncture) can be disadvantaged and punished because their opponents are allowed to sub freely without sanctions. What I, a few members of team Air, and individuals propose is that if a team employs MORE THAN 1 sub per round, the subbed individual will receive no salvage for the win. And if they lose, they discard 1 extra card.

Inactive players is not an excuse. It is a general's responsibility to ensure teams are active and if not, arrange with a WM about getting a replacement.

Thank you for reading and please feel free to add on to our proposal or to refute it.

rob's idea (and I feel my team May be one of those aimed at by this original comment):

Before you agree to face an opposing sub, clearly state and record what level of salvage within the existing rule you will offer if you lose. If you win be glad that fortune has seen fit to smile upon you and be on your way I.e. -15 starts is a fair and proper penalty for losing.
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Re: War #9 - General Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59205.msg1214006#msg1214006
« Reply #62 on: November 08, 2015, 01:14:34 am »
There was a time when multiple subs were mandatory to penalize. Then some teams started to sub in order to avoid having to play as many games the following round

War logic at its finest
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Offline rob77dp

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Re: War #9 - General Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59205.msg1214025#msg1214025
« Reply #63 on: November 08, 2015, 05:21:35 am »
There was a time when multiple subs were mandatory to penalize. Then some teams started to sub in order to avoid having to play as many games the following round

War logic at its finest

Hmmmm, instead of allowing free subs why not have "two values" for vault/card counts?  One is standing/player count (not affected by subs) and the other is actual vault (negatively affected by extra subs)...?
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Re: War #9 - General Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59205.msg1214066#msg1214066
« Reply #64 on: November 08, 2015, 12:40:32 pm »
Quote
These aren't just my sentiments, but are a collection from quiet a few people I've brought this up to. I'm sure you've all been noticing a trend where a few particular teams have been subbing their teammates' games like there's no tomorrow, usually with the general or the most veteran players as well.

Name specific players and teams where this is happening. Since I feel this is slightly directed at us, too, I can assure you I subbed the minimum of games needed for war to happen regularly, since both Luminous and Propheon have been awol since round 2 and Oa isn't in the best conditions to play quite often.

Quote
While I'm not suggesting teams are doing it on purpose in order to boost the probability of winning a match due to skill (though there's a positive correlation to newbie players and who are being subbed out), this at the very least creates an unfairness to their opponents - Newbies will make more mistakes in playing their decks, and part of War's spirit is integrating newbies into competent PvP players with the mentorship of the general and the veterans on the team. Thus, this incessant subbing is getting ridiculous; there literally were only 2 players on a team playing all 5 of the team's matches at some point.
Again, if you prefer matches to not happen and teams to take walkover wins, you're free to say so.

Quote
With all this in mind, teams who don't sub (my team, in fact, has not employed ANY subs this whole War up till this juncture) can be disadvantaged and punished because their opponents are allowed to sub freely without sanctions.
Teams who don't sub have all their members available for deckbuilding and testing, and this is an advantage in itself already. It also helps the team's morale if deckbuilding phase isn't just a back and forth between 2 people.

Quote
What I, a few members of team Air, and individuals propose is that if a team employs MORE THAN 1 sub per round, the subbed individual will receive no salvage for the win.
This is already happening.
Quote
And if they lose, they discard 1 extra card.
So, it's better for a team to run suicide decks when not needed by vault. Perfect for war spirit and integrity.

Quote
Inactive players is not an excuse. It is a general's responsibility to ensure teams are active and if not, arrange with a WM about getting a replacement.
Really helps when all the possible replacements are as inactive. Or should a team be allowed to get players from outside the auction pool? That sounds increasingly stupid and unfair.

Quote
Thank you for reading and please feel free to add on to our proposal or to refute it.
Please, consider scrapping this proposal. I think subbing rules are at the best they have ever been.
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Re: War #9 - General Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59205.msg1214068#msg1214068
« Reply #65 on: November 08, 2015, 01:27:20 pm »
WM, please do not start changing rules midwar or else more drama will ensue.

I always allow full salvage, because the same could happen to my team. Changing the rules just so you don’t want people to call you, hmm, how can I put this nicely, "mean", that’s a weak excuse. This is a game, RL>games no matter what.

Call me naive or stupid, but I always encouraged my team members to value RL over this event. If some general would try to force me to neglect my RL, as a soldier, I would just quit war.

Don’t try to change rules just for your benefit.

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Re: War #9 - General Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59205.msg1214069#msg1214069
« Reply #66 on: November 08, 2015, 01:32:15 pm »
It's true that the prospect of playing a vet is very different to playing a new player regardless of deck. However, the only difference is in missplays, and personally i always hope my opponent won't  missplay. It cheapens my INEVITABLE  VICTORY  (cough, 0-5).
The only time which i am against a sub is if the player being subbed is active, or available. Basically, if all players respond to PMs promptly, nobody should be too upset if a sub is necessary.
Further  punishment  just seems like it would add to stress and damage  teams unnecessarily.
I could get behind:

1st sub free
2nd sub half salvage
3rd sub full salvage
Possibly: the same player can't do all the subs in a round if there are more than one.
EDIT: But change  nothing  mid-war.

Any more is ludicrous if we want to keep activty damaged teams active.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 01:35:50 pm by JonathanCrazyJ »
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Re: War #9 - General Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59205.msg1214070#msg1214070
« Reply #67 on: November 08, 2015, 01:44:11 pm »
Ofcourse, rules won't be changed for this war.
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Re: War #9 - General Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59205.msg1214082#msg1214082
« Reply #68 on: November 08, 2015, 03:23:12 pm »
Next War i prefer teams with 5 members,instead of 6.
Feedback and rating about all members (including General) after War will be usefull for next Auction.
This can be usefull too:
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/pvp-events/pvp-parasite-system/
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Re: War #9 - General Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59205.msg1214089#msg1214089
« Reply #69 on: November 08, 2015, 03:50:04 pm »
As the General who's perhaps the most guilty of subbing, I agree with what RR said. I really had high hopes for my team members, but three of them had to inexplicably go inactive from very early on in war. It's already hard enough on the rest of us three to test and manage five matches, especially with hard RLs too. Thankfully I've been able to keep up with my own match so far, but my teammates have all had to take some short breaks in the meanwhile. Thus we've had to do 2/3 subs every round since R4.

And we've done well, and that's something me and my teammates are really proud of. We've managed to juggle RL with War and we've come out successful. ian is actually saying the mature thing when saying that RL > the game, and we all must recognize that. Who knows, one RL event might just ruin us in this War for good. As such, I enjoy being rewarded for me and my teammate's hard work. We've put in more effort into this than others, and if we were served with penalties despite that we'd all probably lose motivation quite a while ago.

^These sentiments are why I've avoided posting in this topic till now. Also, your claim of veterans using their own skill and shunning newbies is really ill-founded. Firstly, most war decks and matchups are created to be counters and the skill level involved in those matchups is pretty low. Secondly, truly active newbies should be able to test out their deck and its matchups for long enough to acquire a great amount of skill in the time before their match. The generals can also really help out active newbies. If my team were more active, I was planning to help them in complex matchups by making some videos on optimal plays. If a newbie can pretty much match a vet if they are active and sometimes even exceed vets with enough practice, I really don't see your case.

A much bigger concern is that we simply don't have any active subbing opportunities; even outside the auction pool there will be at most 1 or 2 players capable of (and willing to) being active in war. Generals can't really help their teammates to be active: outside of a few connections most of us are completely disjoint without these forums (and its social media). If someone decides to leave this forum and its social media, we cannot contact them anyway. So for a Gen, each bid in auction is a gamble; for some it just falls apart. I don't see any reason to take from someone any more than they've lost in their gamble.


Next War i prefer teams with 5 members,instead of 6.
Feedback and rating about all members (including General) after War will be usefull for next Auction.
This can be usefull too:
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/pvp-events/pvp-parasite-system/


ftr, PvP Parasite system is no longer active. I would say it isn't really necessary, since PvP infractions often tie into forum infractions as a whole when it is tangible and provable. Maintaining a PvP parasite system is unnecessary when we have forum rules active as well as a few other minor systems.

That said, if you feel like PvP Parasites are a good idea, suggesting this to PvP Staff/Council would be a good idea. It's better to use the council forum for that though :)
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Re: War #9 - General Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59205.msg1214121#msg1214121
« Reply #70 on: November 08, 2015, 06:44:30 pm »
The existence of this discussion kinda infuriates me a little, but especially this :
Inactive players is not an excuse. It is a general's responsibility to ensure teams are active and if not, arrange with a WM about getting a replacement.

Sorry, we can't whip people and enslave them to play a game.
Sorry we can't tell them to screw their real life for us.
Sorry we can't attract enough people for war to IMAGINE having enough replacements, let alone active ones.

The attitude in your post is like a banker saying to a startup "Well you haven't made billions yet? Why won't your people work overtime, 24/24?". Thankfully, this is not real life, because in real life that causes many issues, notably stress, mental disorders and other things i'm not sure are appropriate to talk about in a PG13 forum.
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Offline Blacksmith

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Re: War #9 - General Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59205.msg1214145#msg1214145
« Reply #71 on: November 08, 2015, 08:48:31 pm »
So...

These aren't just my sentiments, but are a collection from quiet a few people I've brought this up to. I'm sure you've all been noticing a trend where a few particular teams have been subbing their teammates' games like there's no tomorrow, usually with the general or the most veteran players as well. While I'm not suggesting teams are doing it on purpose in order to boost the probability of winning a match due to skill (though there's a positive correlation to newbie players and who are being subbed out), this at the very least creates an unfairness to their opponents - Newbies will make more mistakes in playing their decks, and part of War's spirit is integrating newbies into competent PvP players with the mentorship of the general and the veterans on the team. Thus, this incessant subbing is getting ridiculous; there literally were only 2 players on a team playing all 5 of the team's matches at some point.

I believe that the main question here is weather people sub because it will increase their win chance or because they have to. I'm sure it's because they have to. The reason why Vets sub more often is because vets tend to be more active than beginners.

Giving penalties to teams who are forced to sub due to inactivity, internet problems or other things will only benefit the more active teams which already is ahead. 
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 08:50:59 pm by Blacksmith »
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