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Offline Dwerg

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Re: War #4 - Round 8 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34293.msg433034#msg433034
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2011, 11:40:45 pm »
not sure if we're getting a bit out of topic here, as this is not the war feedback but the round 8 thread.
But ye, I'm favorable to all the event cards, I like it cause they gave us room for deckbuilding and strategy.
I find it lame that people cry about it same way I find lame when people cry saying their deck was better and should have won, and we should have a best of 9000 instead of Bo5.
If you want something purely based on skill, go play chess or jen-i's "peace" event.
this is war, so man up and take a chance, if you're really good, losing won't hurt your pride and you won't have the need to undervalue other people's victories blaming it on event cards, rng, whatever.

Even if I end this event without a forum icon, I won't be sad, man, I learned a lot, built some sexy decks, played some fun matches, and that is what I'm here for.
I hope war stays unpredictable as it is now(or even more), otherwise it'd get old quite fast.
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Offline CCCombobreaker

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Re: War #4 - Round 8 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34293.msg433073#msg433073
« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2011, 12:19:14 am »
I really like event card part 1.  If it was the only event card this round I'm not sure anyone would be really disappointed or upset.  It allows for both versatility, surprise, and vault stress relief.  Great card. 

My objections are levied at the other two event cards: Marked and Pure.  And my objection is based on the idea that event cards should affect all teams as evenly as possible (and this seemed to be a key principle in all previous event cards).

I think the dangerous part of Marked and Pure is that they is has a multiplier in them, which can really change the round more than any previous event card.  There is a reasonable difference between normal decks 3 ups and Gen decks with 9 ups.  Those kind of matchups are harder (as they should be), but still winnable.  All other event cards added evenly to this difference (if used equally by both sides), but this event card multiplies it.  A normal deck now has 3 6 or 12 ups and a Gen deck has 9 18 or 36 ups.  That is a significantly different kind of up-hill struggle.  If a soldier runs a mono, less than half their deck can be upgraded, but a Gen can have a full upped deck.  This doesn't make games totally unwinnable, but it creates a huge disparity even if both teams use it maximally. 

Marked or Pure might have made more sense early in war when there are a lot of soldiers and no one is on the brink of elimination, but right now (especially with +0/-30) 6 teams face total elimination this round, including the top 2 teams, which will field 8 basic decks against 7 Gens and an Lt.  While I don't anticipate everyone running monos... the event cards should take that possibility into account to remain as fair as possible (I'd hope...).  If everyone had 30 card monos to run this round, Earth and Entropy send a potential 96 upgrades against a potential 240 upgrades (-144).  Where that difference would normally be 24 against 72 (-48)

I don't think it would be nearly as unbalanced an event card if it added ups instead of multiplying them.  If Marked was +6 ups and Pure was +12 ups it would still have significant impact, but in an unbiased way.  It still maintains the Gen +6 advantage that's worked well all war and still gives a significant bonus to teams that can run monos.

Which leads to my other objection: that Marked and Pure favors teams based on the contents of their vault.  All the other event cards affected everyone pretty evenly regardless of vault contents (reinforcements may have helped certain vault make ups slightly more, but it gave all teams the same basic vault bonus to use as they please).  Marked and Pure totally help teams that have specific vault make ups: for every mono you can run, you get a bonus (super bonus if Gen mono)... and if you can't run a mono, too bad?  True it was a surprise for everyone so no one was planning to keep a mono or two stowed in the vault, but isn't it pretty unfair to randomly reward people for having certain vault contents? 

This problem could also be mitigated some by this kind of card happening earlier in war when teams still have large vaults that (by vault building rules) have a lot of in element cards.  But at this point in the war Marked and Pure are really a slap in the face and kick in the nuts, respectively, to teams whose vaults are composed primarily of duos (which almost always run off-element marks so they can use in-element pends) or rainbows (although some can run rainbows with in-element marks).  They have no opportunity to benefit from Marked or Pure, and that was decided arbitrarily.  The theme of Marked and Pure is cool... but it is much the same as rewarding teams for running rainbow decks this round, which would be quite unfair to any team that doesn't have novas or qts left in their vault.

I would agree with several others who have voiced how cool a lot of the event cards have been this war (including card 1 this round!).  Pretty much all the events have added new and interesting dimensions without changing clearly advantaging any specific team.  I also understand you are in the crappy position of having handed out this event card and feeling you have to defend it against this vocal minority, and we all just kind of have to deal with it (because there's no real precedent for changing/repealing event cards this war).  But I think it brings to light several things that should be handled with extreme caution and a lot of thought when creating an event card in the future, and at what points in the war certain cards become unfair.
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Re: War #4 - Round 8 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34293.msg433076#msg433076
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2011, 12:22:11 am »
I was excited upon seeing the event cards because I thought that Team Air could run a new 72 upped card stall.


Unfortunately, there were a few things wrong with that sentence.

Offline ak65ala

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Re: War #4 - Round 8 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34293.msg433222#msg433222
« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2011, 05:05:58 am »
Back from my vacation!

My team is no more....

As for the event cards, I love them all.  Please don't lose the faith.

I just know the internet is like every other human interaction.  It takes 5x the number of good things to outweigh the bad.  Complain once and you have five days of complements just to get things back into balance. That is just how we humans are.  And some things are never erased.  As we tell our children, "If you have nothing nice to say, just say nothing at all."  Now, there is a difference between complaining and constructive criticism... but... I digress...

The one thing I am looking most forward to is how the Warmasters (and administration) will end it all.  I have not crunched the numbers, but it looks to me like another four or five rounds or so before the final battle.  I am very very curious how it will be done in three.  I know you have something up your sleeves. 

Offline Jappert

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Re: War #4 - Round 8 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34293.msg433240#msg433240
« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2011, 06:09:09 am »
Quote from: ak65ala link=topic=http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34293.msg463085#msg463085 date=1322715958
The one thing I am looking most forward to is how the Warmasters (and administration) will end it all.  I have not crunched the numbers, but it looks to me like another four or five rounds or so before the final battle.  I am very very curious how it will be done in three.  I know you have something up your sleeves.
30 card discard and no salvages this round!

Offline Avenger

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Re: War #4 - Round 8 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34293.msg433275#msg433275
« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2011, 07:49:49 am »
Quote from: Higurashi link=topic=http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34293.msg462776#msg462776 date=1322682709
Quote from: Scaredgirl link=topic=http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34293.msg462724#msg462724 date=1322675537
I kind of regret implementing Event Cards in War in the first place. No matter what the cards are, it always leads to the vocal minority complaining about something, instead of just doing their best with what the organizers throw at them. I mean during this War, when though we have had the most interesting Event Cards yet, people still complain every single round. I guess complaining is a big part of the internet, but to me this has a very negative effect on the whole event and makes me question why we are wasting our time even developing these cards.
On the flip side, I've seen a lot of praise for the Event Cards this War. In fact, this one's the first one to cause any larger group to be upset, and that's to be expected considering its potential impact. Not all of the Event Cards can be perfect after all, and there's always a negative vocal minority in Events.

I recall complaints during past Wars very well, and in those instances it was bad enough to remove event cards. I can see how that impact remains to cause disappointment with this part of the community, but you could gather a lot of motivation from the praise this War :>
Yes, so far the event cards were excellent or ok. This one is unfair. Single deck teams are already "awarded" with 9 ups. Now they can have 18/36 easily. I doubt anyone but fire will go with the 3rd option.

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Re: War #4 - Round 8 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34293.msg433396#msg433396
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2011, 06:23:28 pm »
Quote from: Avenger link=topic=http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34293.msg463140#msg463140 date=1322725789
Quote from: Higurashi link=topic=http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34293.msg462776#msg462776 date=1322682709
Quote from: Scaredgirl link=topic=http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34293.msg462724#msg462724 date=1322675537
I kind of regret implementing Event Cards in War in the first place. No matter what the cards are, it always leads to the vocal minority complaining about something, instead of just doing their best with what the organizers throw at them. I mean during this War, when though we have had the most interesting Event Cards yet, people still complain every single round. I guess complaining is a big part of the internet, but to me this has a very negative effect on the whole event and makes me question why we are wasting our time even developing these cards.
On the flip side, I've seen a lot of praise for the Event Cards this War. In fact, this one's the first one to cause any larger group to be upset, and that's to be expected considering its potential impact. Not all of the Event Cards can be perfect after all, and there's always a negative vocal minority in Events.

I recall complaints during past Wars very well, and in those instances it was bad enough to remove event cards. I can see how that impact remains to cause disappointment with this part of the community, but you could gather a lot of motivation from the praise this War :>
Yes, so far the event cards were excellent or ok. This one is unfair. Single deck teams are already "awarded" with 9 ups. Now they can have 18/36 easily. I doubt anyone but fire will go with the 3rd option.
I actually expect Earth and Entropy to choose the first one, while Fire is most likely going to choose the second if I got their Vault straight. Unless, of course, by converting they can get something different than yet another rush. x)
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Re: War #4 - Round 8 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34293.msg434558#msg434558
« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2011, 09:37:27 pm »
Speeches Given:

 :aether: "Victory to the Pure!"
 :air: "Victory to the Pure!"
 :darkness: "Victory to the Pure!"
 :death: "United we Stand!"
 :earth: "United we Stand!"
 :entropy: "United we Stand!"
 :fire: "United we Stand!"
 :light: "United we Stand!"
 :time: "United we Stand!"
 :water: "United we Stand!"

Team Gravity didn't select an EC and will not receive any benefit.  Teams Aether and Earth were late with their PMs and will face a penalty.

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Re: War #4 - Round 8 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34293.msg434561#msg434561
« Reply #44 on: December 03, 2011, 09:44:30 pm »
Quote from: kevkev60614 link=topic=http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34293.msg464445#msg464445 date=1322948247
Speechless teams do not receive any benefit.
:aether :gravity :earth sup?!?

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Re: War #4 - Round 8 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34293.msg434562#msg434562
« Reply #45 on: December 03, 2011, 09:47:35 pm »
Quote from: Jappert link=topic=http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34293.msg464449#msg464449 date=1322948670
Quote from: kevkev60614 link=topic=http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34293.msg464445#msg464445 date=1322948247
Speechless teams do not receive any benefit.
:aether :gravity :earth sup?!?
I just got on to see this damn early morning work. We are screwed since we did the converting one.
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Re: War #4 - Round 8 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34293.msg434564#msg434564
« Reply #46 on: December 03, 2011, 09:55:35 pm »
Wow, some teams are really going to be hurt by this. Even if they don't get penalties, these event cards could help out a lot.

Luckily, those teams are all playing Death. :D
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Re: War #4 - Round 8 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34293.msg434572#msg434572
« Reply #47 on: December 03, 2011, 10:24:03 pm »
Quote from: kevkev60614 link=topic=http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34293.msg464445#msg464445 date=1322948247
Speeches Given:

 :aether: "Victory to the Pure!"
 :air: "Victory to the Pure!"
 :darkness: "Victory to the Pure!"
 :death: "United we Stand!"
 :earth: "United we Stand!"
 :entropy: "United we Stand!"
 :fire: "United we Stand!"
 :light: "United we Stand!"
 :time: "United we Stand!"
 :water: "United we Stand!"

Team Gravity didn't select an EC and will not receive any benefit.  Teams Aether and Earth were late with their PMs and will face a penalty.
As expected. Event card #2 would only be preferable over #3 if the team had enough pendulums / pillars other than their own element, which is rare at this stage of war. The only other possibility would be having multiple nova decks since only one deck wouldn't be worth over event card #1. Rest of the decks with your own mark would be mono which makes #3 superior. And Event card #1 is superior to both of the other cards for those who have their vaults unbalanced or want to surprise their enemies. We could go with any of those since our element & vault are awesome :)
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