War #3 Suggestions

[Corrum]

I had a thought. 

How about taking a snapshot of vaults just after they are completed before rounds start so at the end of the war people have a better idea of vault building strategies used by various teams and can see/discuss glaring vault building mistakes.

corrum

[Shantu]

Yep, I would like to see the starting vault too. The discussions are not always clear and.. they are not visual. 

[Kael Hate]

Back on Topic

ALTERNATE PAIRINGS

1. Each team makes decks up to the amount allowed. Less if prefered. Each of these decks is to challenge another element. An element can only be challenged once per round.

2. If 2 elements end up challenging each other, they duel best of 3 as usual. The loser discards 12 cards.

3. If a team challenges an opponent and the opponent did not return the challenge. The opponent forfiets 6 cards to the challenger.

Advantages -
 - Teams choose where they are commiting players and cards.
 - Teams only have to fight an element once per round and can choose to forfiet cards if they would rather fight elsewhere.
 - No random pairing luck creating an advantage for any team.

Ok I fleshed these out a little more, I hope they make sense to everyone as they do to me.

Advantages -
Rounds can be shorter and quicker because the deckbuilding is a positive action, not a responsive action.
Luck doesn't suck you out against bad matchups.


This is a replacement set of rules for the war. It is suggestion only and not official in any way.





3. STARTING A ROUND
War consists of multiple rounds. Each round consists of three phases:

DeckbuildingDetermining OpponentsDuels[/list]

3.1. DECKBUILDING
Teams may build as many decks as they are able to up to the number of players on the team (traditionally 8 ). Each of these decks must have an opposing team that it will be sent to attack. An oposing team can only be attacked by one of your decks at a time. A team is not required to attack more than 1 opponent if they do not wish to but will be at a disadvantage if they are attacked by an opposing team.

Example of Time declaring attacks

	Player
	General
	Lieutenant
	Sergeant
	Grenadier
	Rifleman
	Scout
	Private
	Cook
	-
	-
	-
	-
	-

As a new rule in War #2, teams now have the option to convert some of their cards. This means that they can replace any card in their Vault with a Pillar or a Pendulum of their element. Converting helps teams to avoid a situation where they would be otherwise forced to build "suicide" decks. Converting will be done by the Vault Organizer who posts on the Vault topic which cards are converted, and then editing the Vault. Teams can convert a maximum of 12 cards per round.

*Illegal decks rule removed* - You simply don't field a deck if you cannot.


3.2. DETERMINING OPPONENTS
At the end of the deck building phase all teams will have their challenge card revealed.
If 2 teams attack each other then a duel occurs. If an attack is not met by an opponent that player has raided the opposing team.

Example of a fresh line up.

TEAM

CHALLENGES

CHALLENGES

CHALLENGES

CHALLENGES

CHALLENGES

CHALLENGES

CHALLENGES

CHALLENGES

CHALLENGES

CHALLENGES

CHALLENGES

CHALLENGES

CHALLENGES

CHALLENGES

xxx

Scout

Lieutenant

Cook

Sergeant

Private

Grenadier

-

General

-

Lieutenant

-

Lieutenant

Sergeant

Scout

xxx

-

Scout

-

-

Lieutenant

Sergeant

-

-

-

-

-

Grenadier

Grenadier

Private

xxx

Rifleman

Private

Scout

-

-

Private

Grenadier

-

Rifleman

-

-

-

-

-

xxx

Grenadier

Sergeant

-

-

Grenadier

Rifleman

Rifleman

General

-

Cook

Rifleman

Lieutenant

Cook

Private

xxx

-

General

Cook

-

Sergeant

General

Grenadier

Grenadier

-

-

Rifleman

-

General

Lieutenant

xxx

-

Grenadier

-

-

Grenadier

Sergeant

Cook

Rifleman

Lieutenant

Cook

Private

-

-

General

xxx

Private

-

General

Sergeant

Lieutenant

-

Lieutenant

-

Grenadier

Rifleman

Lieutenant

Scout

Rifleman

-

xxx

Lieutenant

Lieutenant

Cook

Scout

Scout

-

Cook

-

-

Grenadier

Rifleman

-

-

General

xxx

Cook

-

Cook

Private

Private

-

-

Grenadier

-

General

Lieutenant

Private

-

Rifleman

xxx

Scout

Private

Sergeant

General

General

General

General

Sergeant

Cook

Grenadier

Cook

Rifleman

Scout

Scout

xxx

-

-

-

-

-

Scout

-

-

-

Rifleman

-

Sergeant

Private

-

xxx

General

-

Private

-

-

-

-

Cook

Sergeant

Scout

Cook

-

-

-

xxx

Scout

Sergeant

Sergeant

Sergeant

-

-

-

Scout

Lieutenant

-

-

Private

-

Rifleman

xxx

From this chart we can easily see who has chosen to face who this round. using Darkness as an example.

CHALLENGES	VS	OPPOSED	RESULT
Lieutenant	VS	Grenadier	DUEL
	VS	Private	LOSS
	VS	Rifleman	LOSS
Cook	VS	Private	DUEL
	VS	Scout	LOSS
Private	VS		RAID
Rifleman	VS		RAID
	VS	Private	LOSS
Grenadier	VS	Grenadier	DUEL
General	VS		RAID
Scout	VS	Rifleman	DUEL
	VS		BYE
Sergeant	VS		RAID

Note:
Where both sides have comitted, a DUEL occurs, the loser must discard 12 cards the winner salvages 6 from the opponents deck.
Where you have commited and the opponents did not, you have succeeded in a RAID, they must forfeit 6 cards to you.
Where you have not commited and the opponents did,  you have been plundered and suffer a LOSS, you must forfeit 6 cards to the opponent.
Where no team has commited nothing happens

3.3. DUELS
Players will contact their opponent and try to find a time that suits both. Players have 4 days to make the fight happen. If the fight doesn't happen, both players lose by default, unless one player is clearly more active in trying to find a suitable time. Warmasters will determine who the most active player is, and their word is final.

We are using a "best-of-three" method, which means that each battle consists of up to 3 matches with the winner being the first player to get 2 wins. Remember, you have to play all duels with the same deck and the same mark.

3.4. INACTIVE PLAYERS
If it looks like a team member won't be able to fight during a round, the team has 3 options:

1. Temporarily replace that team member with any other team member, including the General. Temporary replacement player will use the same deck and mark that the original player would have used. Replacements (Generals and Lieutenants included) can never use any upgraded cards. They always use unupped versions of those upgraded cards.
If you substitute a player that has already played this round then he may only salvage 6 total from all battles he participates in.  
2. Permanently replace the inactive member by buying any of the players that weren't bought during the auction phase. Price of the player is 6 cards. This new player joins the team as a full member, and stays with the team until the end of the event. A team can do this action only once during the whole War.

3. Forfeit and take a loss.

[home_wreckaz]

Alright... so seeing there's 13 teams, I actually hope that one team doesn't have to end up going against more than 4Lt/general in a single round... us death actually got it pretty bad this round with 5 generals and 3 Lts and being at round 6, each lost means a discarded deck.

So I've been thinking about it, since there's essentially 13 elements, meaning 13 generals and 13 Lts in total and a maximum of 9 matches per element each round, we give Generals,Lts and other players a different number of points and each round, a team's matches cannot exceed a certain number of points, else there must be a reseed.


For example, I'm thinking that generals would be 2 points, Lts 1 points, other players 0 points then this makes total points sum up to 39 assuming the amount of teams are kept at 13.Since there's only 13 teams, having a maximum point of 3 would require a lot of reseeding so I'm thinking it would be best to have maximum point an element's match should have would be ideally 4 or 5.

This means that in a worst case scenario, one element will only play up to either 4 or 5 Lts or if we're talking generals, a maximum of 2 generals or 2 generals + 1 Lts.

The above went unnoticed? :c

Having to form decks against multiple decks with upped cards is a significant difference as compared to only playing with decks with unupped.

[Kael Hate]

Alright... so seeing there's 13 teams, I actually hope that one team doesn't have to end up going against more than 4Lt/general in a single round... us death actually got it pretty bad this round with 5 generals and 3 Lts and being at round 6, each lost means a discarded deck.

So I've been thinking about it, since there's essentially 13 elements, meaning 13 generals and 13 Lts in total and a maximum of 9 matches per element each round, we give Generals,Lts and other players a different number of points and each round, a team's matches cannot exceed a certain number of points, else there must be a reseed.


For example, I'm thinking that generals would be 2 points, Lts 1 points, other players 0 points then this makes total points sum up to 39 assuming the amount of teams are kept at 13.Since there's only 13 teams, having a maximum point of 3 would require a lot of reseeding so I'm thinking it would be best to have maximum point an element's match should have would be ideally 4 or 5.

This means that in a worst case scenario, one element will only play up to either 4 or 5 Lts or if we're talking generals, a maximum of 2 generals or 2 generals + 1 Lts.

The above went unnoticed? :c

Having to form decks against multiple decks with upped cards is a significant difference as compared to only playing with decks with unupped.

The points thing isn't popular or really good on how it works, but we understand the pairirng sissue and looking at other methods

[Gocubbies1212]

i liked the event cards.  leave out the: upgrade all insert element name here cards though.  different, less OP cards in their place. 

[Gocubbies1212]

whoa where did my post and dragoon's post go?? 

about just keeping the flawless victory event card throughout whole war...

[Dragoon1140]

whoa where did my post and dragoon's post go?? 

about just keeping the flawless victory event card throughout whole war...

Wrong thread buddy. 

Anyway, the same could be said here too, but it is just duplicating information.

[kobisjeruk]

3.4. INACTIVE PLAYERS
If it looks like a team member won't be able to fight during a round, the team has 3 options:

1. Temporarily replace that team member with any other team member, including the General. Temporary replacement player will use the same deck and mark that the original player would have used. Replacements (Generals and Lieutenants included) can never use any upgraded cards. They always use unupped versions of those upgraded cards. Penalty for using a replacement is that you cannot salvage any cards if you win!

"Replacements (Generals and Lieutenants included) can never use any upgraded cards. They always use unupped versions of those upgraded cards."

i suggest we scrap this^ ruling. as seen in War#2, some decks, specifically ones with the upgrade bonus will work optimally (or in some case, could only work) if the upgrades are intact. having this ruling means replacing General or Lieutenant will have a much bigger impact on the duel (consider the case of Team Time vs Team Aether Round 2, Team Fire vs Team Water Round 4, Team Aether vs Team Darkness Round 7) so much so that you might as well give the winning slip to the opponent instead of subbing.

consider this extreme case:-

Code: [Select]

5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rj 5rj 5rk 5rk 5rk 5rk 5rk 5rk 5rt 5rt 5rt 5rt 5rt 5rt 6u2 6u2 6u2 6u2 6u2 6u2a General deck such as this will only work if you  have the Chaos Power as upgraded. Let say Team Time made it to Round 9 with just this deck alone and unfortunate event befell the general. having the ruling as so will mean certain death to team time chance of staying in the war for another round.

(you can reason people should not be making deck with focus on the upgrade bonus but thats not how it work. you cant fault people for doing so. you certainly should not penalize people any further than taking away their salvage bonus)

also there are ways to abuse this ruling to be in your favor if you're facing a general or lieutenant
not accusing any teams of doing so but if one can predict what the others are going to use and if they can somehow 'manipulate' the schedule, either by rushing or delaying the scheduled time, instead attempting to play while the general or lieutenant wont be around for their duel, that will obviously favor them since this ruling will cripple the general's or lieutenant's deck if they predicted correctly what they will face.

keep the fights fair, scrap it

[jmdt]

Subs need to be able to use upped cards if the deck calls for upped cards.  That will stop all the inactive, rushing, crazyness involving duels with generals and lieutenants not wanting to be subbed.

[Boingo]

3.4. INACTIVE PLAYERS
If it looks like a team member won't be able to fight during a round, the team has 3 options:

1. Temporarily replace that team member with any other team member, including the General. Temporary replacement player will use the same deck and mark that the original player would have used. Replacements (Generals and Lieutenants included) can never use any upgraded cards. They always use unupped versions of those upgraded cards. Penalty for using a replacement is that you cannot salvage any cards if you win!

"Replacements (Generals and Lieutenants included) can never use any upgraded cards. They always use unupped versions of those upgraded cards."

i suggest we scrap this^ ruling. as seen in War#2, some decks, specifically ones with the upgrade bonus will work optimally (or in some case, could only work) if the upgrades are intact. having this ruling means replacing General or Lieutenant will have a much bigger impact on the duel (consider the case of Team Time vs Team Aether Round 2, Team Fire vs Team Water Round 4, Team Aether vs Team Darkness Round 7) so much so that you might as well give the winning slip to the opponent instead of subbing.

I agree with scrapping this rule.  I'm sure there was a reason for it when it was created, but for the life of me I can't figure out how this helps.  I believe we lost at least one match subbing our general (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,15245.0.html) which, after seeing how close the matches were with the unupped cards, may well have been a win with the upgraded cards.

[Scaredgirl]

The original idea behind not letting subs use those upped cards, was that during War #1 Generals were also Masters, and it was supposed to be epic when you have to fight a Master.

If we talk about the theme, idea is that Generals are Lieutenants are more skilled, therefore have the ability to use those upped cards. Subs are not as skilled, therefore have to use nerfed versions of the decks.

While letting everyone use upped cards is kind of lame theme wise, it does make sense because it makes the event run more smoothly because it helps to make duels happen. So yeah.. it's probably best to get rid of that rule.


Related to this, I also want to get rid of the whole "Substitute" role. It was supposed to help, but it actually does the opposite because instead of having a whole team of "main subs", you only have one.