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Offline deuce22

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Re: War #7 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50864.msg1151999#msg1151999
« Reply #264 on: August 19, 2014, 11:30:36 pm »
And UT is still alive!  *mindblown*

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Re: War #7 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50864.msg1152033#msg1152033
« Reply #265 on: August 20, 2014, 05:59:14 am »
Suggestion: Make pillars and pendulums free cards in all vaults, so they don't take up any space. Mark cards, however, should still need to be added into the vault in order to use, therefore, taking up space.
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Re: War #7 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50864.msg1152192#msg1152192
« Reply #266 on: August 21, 2014, 06:57:53 am »
Give unlimited conversion once you hit a certain threshold? (The point when your vault would be stretched thin)

Offline Avenger

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Re: War #7 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50864.msg1152198#msg1152198
« Reply #267 on: August 21, 2014, 09:23:32 am »
Suggestion: Make pillars and pendulums free cards in all vaults, so they don't take up any space. Mark cards, however, should still need to be added into the vault in order to use, therefore, taking up space.
Do i still have to say i put 10.000 pillars and pendulums in the vault?

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Re: War #7 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50864.msg1152255#msg1152255
« Reply #268 on: August 21, 2014, 04:14:40 pm »
Suggestion: Make pillars and pendulums free cards in all vaults, so they don't take up any space. Mark cards, however, should still need to be added into the vault in order to use, therefore, taking up space.

Discards or deckbuilding would need to be changed with this (otherwise I could send a 30 pillar deck and not having to lose a single card from the loss, while giving effectively no salvage).
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Offline Zso_Zso

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Re: War #7 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50864.msg1152258#msg1152258
« Reply #269 on: August 21, 2014, 05:12:57 pm »
Suggestion: Make pillars and pendulums free cards in all vaults, so they don't take up any space. Mark cards, however, should still need to be added into the vault in order to use, therefore, taking up space.

Discards or deckbuilding would need to be changed with this (otherwise I could send a 30 pillar deck and not having to lose a single card from the loss, while giving effectively no salvage).

I like the idea. Of course, total vault size would have to be reduced and salvage/discard amounts modified too. And of course we would have to discard real cards (not pillars/pends) and if there wasn't enough in the deck, then you would have to discard form the rest of your vault.
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Re: War #7 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50864.msg1152265#msg1152265
« Reply #270 on: August 21, 2014, 06:10:36 pm »
Something interesting about this idea is that having as many off-element pillars as you want in the vault opens up a lot of deck possibilities that would be infeasible otherwise.
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Offline CCCombobreaker

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Re: War #7 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50864.msg1152410#msg1152410
« Reply #271 on: August 22, 2014, 06:36:16 pm »
As Trials is coming into it's FINAL stage, and Masters will soon be decided, I felt it important that we renew the discussion from last War that ended with several Masters sitting out War entirely.  As of last War, it was ruled Masters who do not General cannot participate in War (although this was not formally added to the rules?)
Spoiler for Hidden:
Quote from: WAR RULES
War will have 12 Generals, one for each element. Masters are the Generals of their element by default. If a Master is unable to join War, he or she will appoint a replacement General (Sr. Member or above). If one or more elements don't have a Master, a General will be picked by the Council.

I think that their are 2 major points of view in this discussion.
1) We need as many quality players in War as possible, so we shouldn't exclude Masters who don't want to be General from the event.
2) Being General of your element is one of the primary responsibilities of being a Master, it is abhorrent for a Master of one element to be a soldier on another element's team in War.

There was a lot of discussion and arguing between these two points of view, and the final decision to completely ignore point 1) (and perhaps also the arguing) generally left everyone feeling bad about what happened.  My first warning is that feeling bad about what happened to Marsu (and also justaburd to a lesser extend) is not a good reason to move directly from point 2) to point 1).

Last War I would say I was pretty squarely in camp 2, as War feels like the biggest event in Elements (to me) and so Masters (the face of an element) should not be abandoning their element and fighting for another.  You got to choose which Element you were Master of, you should not take that lightly.  As TrO I understand people have their own reasons for choosing the Elements they do Trials for, but ultimately you should know that there is a prestige and responsibility with the position of Master (should you win that title) and you ought to do your best to fulfill those responsibilities.

However, since last war (and in organizing Trials), there is quite a bit to be said for point 1).  We do need as many quality people in our "premier" events as possible, and excluding people on technicalities that would otherwise participate is wasteful and causes unnecessary tension.  So I am proposing a couple of reasonable compromises to handle the situation.  I am not a WM, and ultimately it falls on the WMs to make the decision they feel is best for War.  But I felt very strongly I should share these so that they will at least be considered, as I know you are making changes to the event at a number of levels.

There have been hints and whispers of the Auction being turned into a Draft.  So I will try to explain my possibilities in terms that apply to either a draft or an auction.  I will also note that these solutions are not as simple as "they can't join" or "they can join", this is because I believe there should be some cost associated with being Master but not General.  Also my possibilities all maintain that the non-General Master remains on their Elements team for War.  I understand not feeling ready to be General, or not having time to commit to being General, but if you can participate in War, you can be on the team you are Master of.  There is no compelling reason you can be in War but not on the team you represent as Master. 

Possibilities:
A) Masters have an opportunity before the draft/auction to step down from being General and appoint a General in their place (as before). 
That Master may then enter the draft/auction but is (1) unavailable to all other teams and can only be obtained in the first round or at maximum cost OR (2) must be drafted by their team in the first round or purchased by their own team immediately at the maximum cost.

-The downsides here is Masters can use the rule to essentially lock in a "first pick" (even at max cost) by designating them the General.  It would need to be worded in such a way that players being appointed General have the option to say "NO", and this may cause some timing and complexity issues.  Also A(1) means that a Master who appoints a General might sit out War if the General they appointed does not select them.  While this feels very unlikely for a number of reasons, it could be a point of contention.  A(2) is a little more uncomfortable in a draft, as it feels like they are being forced to "use their first pick" on the Master.  But I would point out that this is not meaningfully different than if the General was the (max cost)/(first pick).  And I would expect that will be reasonable, as players who are capable of being General should go in the first round of a draft or receive max bids in an auction.
-The upsides are Masters can participate in War as non-Generals.  They remain in their own element.  It has a minimal impact on the other elements.  And it is not terribly complex.  A non general master A(1) must ban all other elements and if selected by their element, it must be done in the first round (or if bid on by their element must receive a maximum bid) or B(1) must be selected by their element in the first round (or must receive a maximum bid from their element's general).  These can be established by very clear and concise rules.

B) Masters have an opportunity before the draft/auction to step down from being General and appoint a General in their place (as before).  If they do so, they cannot participate in War.
However, if a Master puts a maximum bid on a player or uses their first round draft pick on a player, and that player consents, the title of General is passed to that player effective immediately.  That player will then continue the draft/auction as the General, and the Master will remain on that Element's team.

-This solution is very similar to the first with a few differences.
a) It places a clearly emphasis on the player receiving the General title's willingness to accept the title. 
b) It removes the possibility of a Master appointing a General and then the General not selecting the Master to join there team (and thus the Master not participating in War).
c) Masters have to decide to participate in War or sit it out before the auction/draft, but if they choose to participate, they have some time after that to determine and reach an agreement with who their General will be. 

I feel I have not entirely detailed either solution as it would need to be as rules of the event, but I hope they can serve as ideas the WMs can build upon to find a meaningful way to let Masters who don't want to General (for whatever reason) to participate in War, but remain on the team of the Element of which they are Master.

Also I feel it is important to start giving this topic serious consideration now, as I think this could easily be classified as one of the worst handled issues during last war.

*this post is subject to minor clarification updates, as I will likely reread it several times and find things I feel are worded poorly*
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 06:40:32 pm by CCCombobreaker »
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Offline Vangelios

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Re: War #7 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50864.msg1154247#msg1154247
« Reply #272 on: September 06, 2014, 12:04:19 pm »
Frankly, I hope that changes come, OFC need not be in the way I suggested
I don't see  aether so strong in Leagues, (ie in real  ETG) with shards or not, and I would like to see the rules before saying whether I want to participate.
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Re: War #7 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50864.msg1154384#msg1154384
« Reply #273 on: September 07, 2014, 10:09:51 am »
I know that the war is soon but I'm thinking about the ups cards,
would be better to do in % instead fixed numbers

Gen 1/2 ups cards,  LT 1/3 and soldier 1/5

I think more fair because we know that 6 ups in a deck of 30 is 20% but 6 ups in the 60 cards decks is only 10%

War also one with more ups should be more dynamic
« Last Edit: September 07, 2014, 10:12:53 am by Vangelios »
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Re: War #7 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50864.msg1154385#msg1154385
« Reply #274 on: September 07, 2014, 10:25:41 am »
I know that the war is soon but I'm thinking about the ups cards,
would be better to do in % instead fixed numbers

Gen 1/2 ups cards,  LT 1/3 and soldier 1/5

I think more fair because we know that 6 ups in a deck of 30 is 20% but 6 ups in the 60 cards decks is only 10%

War also one with more ups should be more dynamic
I'm in favor of this. It would be a change to wars before and would open up some more deck choices. But I think that it should be Gen 1/3 Lt 1/5 Soldier 1/10.

I also think that if we keep the voting system we should change the maximum bid for a player. The teams with the best/expensive players make it to the best ranks instead of it being a balance.

It should be
Spoiler for Hidden:
Where Y is how far a team goes and X how expensive it was.
instead it is
Spoiler for Hidden:
Where Y is how far a team goes and X how expensive it was.
therefore it has to be changed.  Last war the highest cost for a player was 14/290≈4.8%  I think it should be increase to at least Y/X≈7%.
Where Y is the cost of the player and X is the starting coins.
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