Post by: serprex on December 03, 2019, 11:10:22 pm
What is War? (#post_whatwar) | How do I join War? (#post_join)
1. Building an Army (#post_on) | 2. Preparation (#post_two) | 3. Rounds (#post_three) | 4. Postbattle (#post_four) | 5. Penalties (#post_five)
1. Building an Army (#post_on) | 2. Preparation (#post_two) | 3. Rounds (#post_three) | 4. Postbattle (#post_four) | 5. Penalties (#post_five)
WAR
Thirty Two Players, Eight Elements. One victorious team.
Who will rise to the top?
Thirty Two Players, Eight Elements. One victorious team.
Who will rise to the top?
What is War?
War is the largest event held on the forums, and the core of the Forum Major Event Cycle. At the start of War, 8 Generals, one for each element besides :water :death :air :aether, choose a team of three soldiers in an exciting auction. Then these teams of four build a vault of cards - the lifeblood of the team for the rest of war. In this conflict of limited resources, teams will face off using decks built from whatever they have within their vaults. Victors will salvage scraps off their opponents, and the defeated will have to discard some of the cards they hold dear. Each round, Event Cards will appear to alter the usual flow and add new layers of strategy. Teams will run out of cards in vault and begin to fall. One by one, eleven teams will be defeated. The last one standing will be the victor of War #13, and their element's banner will reign supreme over the forums.
At least, until the next War begins...
How do I join War?
Applying for war is a very easy process. At the very start of any war, War Auctions (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/war-auction/) will be open for posting applications. Generals are not against bidding on new players, but they really appreciate players with enthusiasm to perform well in war.
If auction is over but you still would love to be a part of war, there's still a chance! PM the Warmasters your application in order to be considered when a substitute is required.
What follows are the rules describing every aspect of War. Both newer players and old veterans are advised to read it carefully, so that you are familiar with the workings of this intricate event:
1. BUILDING AN ARMY
1.1. GENERALS
War will have 8 Generals, one for each Element besides :water :death :air :aether. Masters are the Generals of their Element by default. If a Master is unable to join War as General, he or she will appoint a replacement General (Sr. Member or above). If a Master does not appoint a General, one will be picked by the Council. Generals start with 300 cards, which will be used for building their team and their vault.
Masters may still participate as a soldier if they can't commit to generalship.
1.2 PLAYER AUCTION
Players wanting to join War must start their own War application topic in the War Auction board (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/war-auction). Players may ban up to 2 elements from bidding on them. However, each ban increases the minimum bid for that player by 5 cards. Players must include their in-game name. All war matches must be played by them through that same in-game name.
Applications cannot change once bidding starts.
There are no guarantees you will be drafted by who you want. Drafted players who refuse to participate will be removed from the event & banned from next War.
- players may have up to 2 bans and up to 2 favourites
- min bid is 5 + 5*number_of_bans
- max bid is 40 cards
- minimum raise is 5, although generals may always bid 40
- generals may not have more than 3 winning bids at any given time. Tied max bids count as winning bids
- if a player did not receive a bid in the last 24 hours, the player is locked on the current winning general. If a player has multiple max bids at that deadline, the favourite will win by default. If multiple favourites or no favourites, the player gets to choose. If the player does not make a choice in 24 hours, the choice will be randomized by WMs. No additional bids can be made while the player is making their decision
2. PREPARATION
2.1. SECRET FORUM SECTION
Each team has a hidden subboard visible only to its members, Warmasters, and non-participating Administrators. All discussions held here MUST be kept secret.
Your secret forum section will contain a "Round Boosts and Rosters" thread. Each round, post the boosts assigned to each soldier in this thread.
2.2. MEMBER ROLES
1. General: Responsible for coordinating the team.
2. Soldiers: The rest of your team. The soldiers will be able to consume certain boosts (described later in this post.)
2.3. THE VAULT
The Vault is your heart in War. Not only does it supply cards for deckbuilding, but acts as "hit points" for the team. If a team falls below 90 cards, they will be eliminated. These cards do not include pillars/pendulums/mark cards.
The leftover cards after subtracting Auction costs from the initial amount of 300 will be used to buy cards to form the team starting Vault. You have an infinite supply of pillars/pendulums/mark cards, which do not need to be purchased from the market.
Cards in the Vault are always unupgraded. During deckbuilding, unupgraded cards may be taken from the Vault, and transformed into upgraded cards for that deck, up to the limits mentioned below. If you move an upgraded card back to the Vault, it becomes unupgraded.
Important! Vaults are virtual. Players are not given cards taken from the Vault, nor are any cards removed from their account if they lose. Players must own the cards on their Elements game account in order to use them. If a player doesn't have a specific card in their account, they cannot use it, even if that card is listed in the Vault. Try to pick cards that your teammates are able to access.
3. STARTING A ROUND
War consists of multiple rounds. Each round lasts one week, and will consist of two phases: Deckbuilding (4 days) and Dueling (3 days.)
3.1. DETERMINING OPPONENTS
Opponents will be determined randomly by Warmasters, with the constraints that, if possible, no team will play another team more than once within a given round and no team will face more than two generals in a given round.
Duel pairings will be made public by Warmasters. Event Cards designed by Warmasters will be included, which will have a global effect upon all teams during that round.
3.2. DECKBUILDING
Teams must build a deck for each player fighting during the round. Each Soldier is able to use one boost per round. The boost used must be different than any boost used by another Soldier in the team. These boosts must be submitted in the private board in the "Round Boosts and Rosters" thread. You simply need to say the player name and the boost used.
Lieutenant Upgrades (+3)
Extra Salvage (+2)
Tinkerer - Off-Element pendulums now count as your own Element for deckbuilding percentage and upgrade rules. You must use your own team's mark.
Mercenary - Deck only has to be 40% in-Element.
Gambler - Salvages 3 Upgrade Tokens for winning their match.
Alchemist - Can transmute cards with a 1:1 ratio. (see Transmutations (#post_michealbay) for more information)
Extra Salvage (+2)
Tinkerer - Off-Element pendulums now count as your own Element for deckbuilding percentage and upgrade rules. You must use your own team's mark.
Mercenary - Deck only has to be 40% in-Element.
Gambler - Salvages 3 Upgrade Tokens for winning their match.
Alchemist - Can transmute cards with a 1:1 ratio. (see Transmutations (#post_michealbay) for more information)
Deckbuilding rules:
- combining all decks may not use more than the Vault carries. Upgraded cards in decks are counted as unupgraded cards in the vault.
- at least 50% of the cards must be in your Element. "Mark of ..." cards are considered in the element they feature. Non-elemental cards besides Quantum Pillar are considered in-element.
- each card has an unupgraded & upgraded 'upgrade modifier'. The sum of a deck's upgrade modifiers must not be below zero. A reference of the upgrade modifier tables can be found here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jty8SQTYmNiwpKC8kv5ZfuEe_6NPFHhHeP4DmiaXKjw/edit#gid=0).
- Generals and Soldiers are given 12 and 6 upgrade points respectively.
- teams may spend a Upgrade Token to grant 1 extra upgrade point to a deck. There is no limit to how many Upgrade Tokens may be spent per round, however, Event Cards may change the ability of Upgrade Tokens each round, so pay close attention.
You must not edit your decks, salvage, discard, etc. after the deckbuilding period ends. Doing so will result in a penalty, regardless of what the change was.
3.3. DUELS
Players will contact their opponent to try find a time that suits both. If the fight does not happen, both players lose by default, unless one player is clearly more active in trying to find a suitable time. Warmasters will determine who the most active player is. Please try to clearly contact your opponent by forum PMs and keep screenshots/chatlogs as proof of activity.
Matches are best-of-five, which means that each battle's winner is the first player to win 3 duels. Remember, you must play all duels with the same deck and mark.
3.4. INACTIVE PLAYERS
If it looks like a member won't be able to fight during a round, the team has various options:
1. Temporarily replace a member with any other member. Temporary replacements use the same exact deck, number of upgrades, and mark as recorded for that player. Note: Mark cards in the original deck may be freely changed into their corresponding pillars if the sub doesn't have them.
2. Permanently replace a member with a player who submitted an application, but didn't end up on a team.
3. To permanently replace a General (as leader of the team), every other member must agree that the General needs replacing, and a consensus must be reached on who the new General will be. Warmasters will remove the General from the team at no cost. If a new player needs to be added, see above.
Note that a substitute may not use ANY cards the player they are replacing does not have.
If a team is abusing temporary replacements or substitutions (e.g. not letting players play even when they are available), please inform the WMs immediately with information. Warmasters will consider this on a case-by-case basis.
3.5. DISCONNECTS & DESYNCS
- In the event of a disconnect (Opponent not responding, CPU takes over), the players should play it out vs the AI on both sides (unless both agree to restart the duel).
- If the same player wins in both "games", they are considered the winner of that game. A screenshot of the winning turn vs. the opponent's AI must be provided in order to claim a win or replay.
- In the event both players win or lose, and both present screenshots, a re-duel will be ordered.
- If it is obvious that a game will never end (e.g. if both players have zero net damage output -- where they can both heal off the damage done each turn easily -- and will never deck out, and both players have no means of breaking the stalemate), that game is voided, and players replay.
- If a desynchronization error is detected and leads to weird circumstances, take screenshots immediately. Then the players should replay the match, unless it was clear who was going to win.
- If you lose access to the Elements the Game during a game , the opponent should have the CPU take over, and they should play vs the CPU. If the opponent wins, the game is a loss for the person who lost connection. If the CPU wins, the game should be replayed with same deck and mark, unless the player who lost connection can prove that they'd win despite any series of draws from the opponent.
- All games can be appealed to WMs, but there must be indisputable evidence provided that one player would have clearly won. Whether one player would have clearly won is decided strictly, and providing more information makes it more likely that an accurate ruling will occur.
- Warmasters are the final arbitraters on all matters. If you have any issues, contact WMs IMMEDIATELY.
3.6. ADDITIONAL RULES
3.6.1. MINOR ERRORS
Minor mistakes will not result in automatically losing a match. Instead, the player will be given the opportunity to fix their mistake and complete the match. A card penalty will be imposed due to the mistake, however. These errors include, but aren't limited to: copying the wrong deck from vault, having the wrong mark code in vault deck, assigning someone a deck with mark cards or nymphs they do not own (note that in this case any substitutes won't be able to use these cards either).
If the player detects the error before any cards are played in a duel, he can immediately stop the duel and fix his deck, without any loss in match record. But if any cards were played, that duel counts as a loss due to illegal deck. This is only one lost game though, not a lost match.
3.6.2. UPGRADES AND UNOWNED CARDS
If a player absolutely cannot build a deck with the upgrades required, he must provide proof. Then he may play the match out replacing the upgraded card with unupgraded version.
If a player does not own cards in a deck (either due to a minor error, or while subbing), he must replace mark cards with pillars of that element, and other cards with relic cards. If a mark card was upgraded, the replacement pillar may be upgraded as well. Arrangements will be made for players who do not have sufficient relics.
3.6.3. HYDRAS
In light of previous events, we will be allowing Hydras in this war. This refers to a group of more than one people using the same forum account. If a hydra registers, they must state how many people are part of the account and to what capacity clearly in the application. The hydra can use only one game account, as specified in the application, for all matches.
4. POSTBATTLE
4.1. WINNING A BATTLE
The winner of the duel starts a new topic in the "Battle Results" section, indicating the teams, the member roles, & the score. Member roles are abbreviated (Gen, Lt, Sld). For example if "LordOwner" from :water fights "KingKiller" from :air & wins 3-1, he will start a topic titled like so:
(Water Lt) LordOwner 3 - 1 (Air Gen) KingKiller, or if they were subbed, (Water Sld) (Sub) LordOwner 3 - 1 (Air Lt) KingKiller (use SUB to indicate that someone else played instead of LordOwner)
In that topic, LordOwner will post his deck, and should summarize the match. KingKiller will then reply to that same topic with his deck. He may also talk about the battle if he so chooses. Everyone may post in the topics after KingKiller replies.
If the player who played the match is not available to post their deck immediately afterwards, one of their teammates must do it.
The winning team salvages cards from the opponent's deck. The winning team picks 6 cards to copy from the deck of the losing player into their vault unupgraded. These cards become part of the Vault. If the reesult was a 3-0 win, 7 cards are salvaged instead.
If a deck contains no cards from market, then no cards may be salvaged. Thus all of them must be transmuted.
If a team wins three of its primary matches in a round (not ones due to EC), they will be awarded an upgrade token.
When salvaging cards into your Vault, you may choose to transmute them instead. The rules for this are detailed below:
4.2. TRANSMUTATIONS
For a specific deck, instead of salvaging the full 6 cards you may choose to transmute some instead. Two cards from salvage can be transmuted into any card. You may transmute as many pairs as were salvaged.
4.3. LOSING A BATTLE
When a team loses a battle, they have to discard cards from the deck used and/or the Vault according to the chart below. Cards that are left in the deck after discarding are returned back to Vault. The discards may not be pillars/pendulums/mark cards, as these do not exist in the Vault.
Note: Discards happen before Salvage (so no discarding cards salvaged/transmuted this round).
| Round | Discards |
| 1 | 6 |
| 2 | 12 |
| 3+ | 24 |
- "Discards" may only be chosen from the losing deck. If there is less than the required non-pillar/pendulum/marks cards in the deck, the remaining cards are taken from vault.
4.4. WINNING WAR
A team wins War by being the last team standing, or by having the largest vault out of all participants in the last round if none of them remain standing. The winning team of War earns:
- a forum award icon: (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/awards/d5eb9767752e48c1598f1609ff9e0c3d_d5eb9767752e48c1598f1609ff9e0c3d_war8.png)
- the forum "Reigned by" image will be changed to show which Element won
- a Mark/Nymph reward code will be given to each worthy member (as decided by an administrator)
If two or more teams still have at least 90 cards in their Vault, the next round begins.
5. PENALTIES
Penalties are issued when a team somehow breaks the rules or disrupts War. A penalized team must discard from their Vault at the round's end. The following are guidelines, and Warmasters will determine penalties on a case-by-case basis.
Minor penalty: 5 cards. For small mistakes which do not disrupt the course of the event.
Medium penalty: 20 cards. For larger infractions which cause minor delays to the event.
Major penalty: 40 cards. For major infractions which seriously disrupt the event.
BACKROOM DEALS
Conspiring with other teams is forbidden. Even discussing already public information ruins the spirit of the event, making it less fun for everybody.
HAVE FUN!
War is a very exciting event and, despite being a lot to take in at first, is a fantastic opportunity for newer players to drastically improve their skills by working closely with experienced veterans. While the main appeal of War may be total Elemental domination, the primary goal for all players should be nice and simple - have fun!
Post by: serprex on December 09, 2019, 05:44:15 pm
Market is replaced with upgrade modifiers: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jty8SQTYmNiwpKC8kv5ZfuEe_6NPFHhHeP4DmiaXKjw (these numbers are almost final)
Vaults are 300 cards, elimination line is 90 cards, teams always play 4 matchs
Generals get 9 upgrades. Soldiers get 3 upgrades
Transmutation is now 2:1
Draft is replaced with auction
:water :death :air :aether do not have generals. Teams will be 4 players (1 general, 3 soldiers). This may change if we get more than 32 applicants
Sideboard & Discard have been removed. Alchemist is 1:1 transmute. Gambler is +3 upgrade tokens if you win. Removed limiting Mercenary to 4 elements. Lieutenant is +3 upgrades, not +4
Initial vaults do not have to be 50% in-element. Relics are allowed in vaults, & "relic" in previous wars is now referred to as "upgrade token"
Non-elemental cards besides Quantum Pillar are considered in-element
LordOwner defeated KingKiller
Post by: Wyand on December 09, 2019, 06:43:48 pm
2. What about the elements without generals? Can we use those elements?
Post by: iancudorinmarian on December 09, 2019, 07:06:37 pm
Yes, you can use those elements.
Post by: immortal feud on December 09, 2019, 07:35:54 pm
what is an upgrade modifier?
Post by: Wyand on December 09, 2019, 07:56:47 pm
Isn't this new stuff as well? I remember 50 as margin.
Post by: serprex on December 09, 2019, 08:30:47 pm
1. What is the reasoning behind less ups / sideboard removed?
what is an upgrade point?
what is an upgrade modifier?
Sideboard also gets weird with how it'd interact with upgrade modifiers. Upgrade modifiers essentially make each card have a cost, where some cards give more upgrades & many cards cost more than 1 upgrade. As a baseline pillars cost 0 & towers cost 1. Relics give 3 upgrades. Difference for unupped & upped are not necessarily 1, allowing us to have a world where Pufferfish isn't punished for being related to Toadfish. Reduced upgrade counts in decks derive from my observations of Trials & my current predictions of what impact this model will have
Post by: Zso_Zso on December 09, 2019, 08:34:32 pm
Does not compute...
Post by: andretimpa on December 10, 2019, 12:43:37 am
LordOwner defeated KingKiller
The only change that really matters in the grand scheme of things
Post by: JonathanCrazyJ on December 10, 2019, 04:47:05 pm
:'(
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on December 10, 2019, 05:04:46 pm
Players may ban up to 3 elements from bidding on them.What.
players may have up to 7 bans
they will be awarded a relicUpgrade token?
Relics give 3 upgradesPlease no :(
When salvaging cards into your Vault, you may choose to transmute them into cards of your own element insteadSo is it any card, or any in-element card?
Two cards from salvage can be transmuted into any card
generals may not have more than 3 winning bids at any given time. Tied max bids count as winning bidsThat's no fun, how is one to trollbid if you cannot even have more bids than players? I would have liked to be able to have at least 1 more winning bid. At least there is no max amount of total bids that I can see, but still!
Thirty Two Players, Eight ElementsNo variable team sizes to ensure everyone that joins can get in while cheapskates get smaller teams
Post by: serprex on December 10, 2019, 05:48:56 pm
Players may ban up to 3 elements from bidding on them.What.
players may have up to 7 bans
Compromised on 6they will be awarded a relicUpgrade token?
YesRelics give 3 upgradesPlease no :(
YesWhen salvaging cards into your Vault, you may choose to transmute them into cards of your own element insteadSo is it any card, or any in-element card?
Two cards from salvage can be transmuted into any card
Anygenerals may not have more than 3 winning bids at any given time. Tied max bids count as winning bidsThat's no fun, how is one to trollbid if you cannot even have more bids than players? I would have liked to be able to have at least 1 more winning bid. At least there is no max amount of total bids that I can see, but still!
Blame ianThirty Two Players, Eight ElementsNo variable team sizes to ensure everyone that joins can get in while cheapskates get smaller teamsand field all the Marks everywhere?
Yes. May have to improvise if we can't get 24 appications ofc
Thanks for the proofread
Post by: immortal feud on December 11, 2019, 12:23:19 pm
as an example say water wanted to play this deck
how could they upgrade it as either general or soilder
Post by: mathman101 on December 11, 2019, 02:01:36 pm
im still not at all sure how deckbuilding works
as an example say water wanted to play this deck
how could they upgrade it as either general or soilder
My understanding from what serprex explained in chat the other day, this deck would be this for a General:
General Base ups amount - (+9)
Nova - 6*(-0.5)
Arse - 1* (-0.8)
grabb - 3*(-0.5)
forest sp - 1*(+0.5)
deflag - 1*(0)
water pill - 5*(0)
squid - 3*(-0.3)
toadfish - 4*(-0.1)
SoPa - 1*(-2.6)
water pends - 2*(0)
fog shield - 1*(-0.5)
NM - 1*(-0.8)
Lightning - 1*(-0.1)
summing this gives; 9-3-0.8-1.5+0.5+0+0-0.9-0.4-2.6+0-0.5-0.8-0.1= -1.1
so this deck for a general could have negative upgrades resulting in it being illegal unless using relics or upgrade tokens.
Also take note that upgraded cards have a different ups modifier than their unupped counterpart. (deflag is 0, but explosion is -0.8)
Post by: serprex on December 11, 2019, 05:28:18 pm
Post by: PlayerOa on December 11, 2019, 05:33:13 pm
mathman gets it
Username checks out
Post by: immortal feud on December 12, 2019, 12:57:40 am
i dont want to build decks and then need to spens hours solving simultaneous equations to work out how to upgrade it or if its even playable.
General Base ups amount - (+9)
Nova - 6*(-0.5)
Arse - 1* (-0.8)
grabb - 3*(-0.5)
forest sp - 1*(+0.5)
deflag - 1*(0)
water pill - 5*(0)
squid - 3*(-0.3)
toadfish (upped) - 4*(0.2)
SoPa - 1*(-2.6)
water pends - 2*(0)
fog shield - 1*(-0.5)
NM - 1*(-0.8)
Lightning - 1*(-0.1)
9-3-0.8-1.5+0.5+0+0-0.9+0.8-2.6+0-0.5-0.8-0.1= 0.1
turned out this was a bit of a trick question, this is the only legal way to play the deck with general role.
i had hoped that 9 and 3 were the minimum upgrades and you couldnt have less but you could get more with positive multipliers.
let me stress again how much i HATE this
Post by: Wyand on December 12, 2019, 01:11:18 am
Post by: dawn to dusk on December 12, 2019, 03:05:19 am
Post by: InsignificantWeeaboo on December 12, 2019, 03:28:43 am
Are the cards of elements not in war going to be adjusted accordingly?
They're still in.
Post by: dawn to dusk on December 12, 2019, 03:55:15 am
Post by: InsignificantWeeaboo on December 12, 2019, 04:33:38 am
:death :air :water :aether Aren't in war
But their cards are still in
Post by: immortal feud on December 12, 2019, 06:21:21 am
Post by: serprex on December 12, 2019, 06:23:07 am
Post by: Wyand on December 12, 2019, 10:31:18 am
Post by: worldwideweb3 on December 12, 2019, 05:01:16 pm
Post by: Wyand on December 13, 2019, 12:17:04 am
Supernova getting -1? C'mon... this rule (along with the previous) makes SoSe decks unplayable. Think about it: maybe you get
2x12 quanta for one spell, but it isn't a free card, you have less chance to get a SNova in hand than a Nova... Plus you'll need
upped ppms (or entropy as mark) to use it effectively.
Chaos Power -0.5? No CP decks at all, or what? Starting with -3 ups... with both Psions and Wyrms getting -1 modifiers... good luck
playing those.
Upped Disco with -2... like +2 dmg equals -1 modifier, lol.
"Let's give good cards crazy negative modifiers and bad or less popular cards positive modifiers." I think it is a very bad approach.
Let players add 1-2 copies of Relics or a Schrodinger's Cat value in-element card for half-properly working decks? I don't like it at all.
Unupped War or what? Boring. I kinda feel that I'm not alone with my opinion that semi-upped (8-15 ups) has the most fun.
EDIT: Just checked a few of our decks from last War. No wonder they are getting negative modifiers (except for the Deathstalker deck, lol),
but the really shocking fact is, that most of them get -15 to -20 modifiers. I don't know where is the fun in this. Haven't checked
other Elements yet, what are your findings, fellow Generals?
Post by: iancudorinmarian on December 13, 2019, 08:44:23 am
Post by: Ginyu on December 13, 2019, 02:40:54 pm
Chaos Power -0.5? No CP decks at all, or what? Starting with -3 ups... with both Psions and Wyrms getting -1 modifiers... good luck
playing those.
You look at it from a wrong perspective. If you look through past wars, all unupped cards had a cost of 0 and all upped a cost of -1. CP having -0.5 means you only have to invest half the upgrade points than before. Of course, having less upgrades total this time will make a difference, but that is more a problem of the initial upgrades rather than the modifier of the cards.
For Auction, banning up to 6 elements (from only 8 total) seems huge. Maybe this number was made under the assumption of 12 teams? Also, is it true that favourite elements do not impact bidding this time (just a question, no critique)?
Post by: Wyand on December 13, 2019, 03:06:20 pm
Chaos Power -0.5? No CP decks at all, or what? Starting with -3 ups... with both Psions and Wyrms getting -1 modifiers... good luck
playing those.
You look at it from a wrong perspective. If you look through past wars, all unupped cards had a cost of 0 and all upped a cost of -1. CP having -0.5 means you only have to invest half the upgrade points than before. Of course, having less upgrades total this time will make a difference, but that is more a problem of the initial upgrades rather than the modifier of the cards.
Umm, which Wars? Last War (my only experience) there was a Market, and CS/CP costed only 60 which wasn't that expensive.
Post by: andretimpa on December 13, 2019, 04:06:33 pm
Chaos Power -0.5? No CP decks at all, or what? Starting with -3 ups... with both Psions and Wyrms getting -1 modifiers... good luck
playing those.
You look at it from a wrong perspective. If you look through past wars, all unupped cards had a cost of 0 and all upped a cost of -1. CP having -0.5 means you only have to invest half the upgrade points than before. Of course, having less upgrades total this time will make a difference, but that is more a problem of the initial upgrades rather than the modifier of the cards.
Umm, which Wars? Last War (my only experience) there was a Market, and CS/CP costed only 60 which wasn't that expensive.
Pretty sure CP counted as upped during deckbuilding last war :sillyspin:
Post by: iancudorinmarian on December 13, 2019, 04:15:43 pm
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on December 13, 2019, 05:28:33 pm
The numbers as they are now are actually good, in my opinion. I initially saw outrageous negative numbers in Darkness, but this is acceptable. I'd argue Vampire Stiletto could go for 0 unupgraded, since at current upgrade costs you would always upgrade it. Rustler, Fire Bolt, Armagio, Graboid, Virus and Lightning could probably do with -0.5 for both versions (to 1.5|1 ; -1|-1.5 ; 1.5 | 1 ; -1 | -1.5 ; 2 | 0 ; -0.5 | -1.5 respectively). Flying Weapon with -0.5 upgraded (0 | -1.5).
I think it's important that usual staple decks get weakened, and this achieves this much better than a pay once (or never at all) using market prices, but banning/crippling them with outrageous upgrade costs is not the answer. But as I stated, these costs are no longer outrageous. The benefit is that weird decks get buffed with additional upgrades and become stronger as a result.
Post by: shockcannon on December 13, 2019, 05:53:46 pm
Let's take a look at how many positive modifiers each element gets, keeping in mind that positive modifiers from upped cards are more valuable especially when they only drop by 0.5 from the unupped version (for example, rustler goes from +2 to +1.5 when you use it upped, which essentially means you're getting a free half of an upgrade since it doesn't drop from +2 to +1).
| Element | Positive Unupped | Positive Upped |
| :entropy | 7 | 4 |
| :gravity | 11 | 6 |
| :earth | 8 | 3 |
| :life | 8 | 2 |
| :fire | 3 | 1 |
| :light | 10 | 4 |
| :time | 6 | 3 |
| :darkness | 9 | 3 |
It should be evident, but one element really sticks out here. I realize that these numbers alone are useless because they're attached to cards with different levels of power, but the point is, every element has options if they want to get upgrades, but :fire has no flexibility from in-element positive modifiers. I'm fine and this isn't an issue for me, but it is an issue when every one else complains about their element and then receives buffs when in actuality they have plenty of ways to get upgrades to compensate.
@WMs I will admit I'm hesistant about this system being better than old market, but I'm fine to try new things. However, if you're going to listen to feedback and make changes to the market, make sure they're warranted changes and not just one element fishing for buffs when they're actually balanced quite fine.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that you might look at this and think, well fire have stronger decks overall than some elements so it makes sense that their decks will have less upgrades. Well actually, if you look at all the past wars, every element had access to the same number of upgrades. :fire may have had more expensive cards in the market, but once we had those cards in our vault we could upgrade our strongest decks just as much as any other team. That's no longer the case. Obviously, everyone had their strongest decks nerfed, but every element has more options for getting upgrades back through other cards than fire.
Post by: Wyand on December 14, 2019, 12:07:48 am
If you have trouble with those numbers on Entropy, I do not think you understand the concept very well. Only Discord gets an upgrade nerf compared to the default 0|-1 (and Nova unupgraded) which means using one available upgrade for your deck to upgrade a card. You do not subtract another -1 for it being upgraded, it is already included in the modifier.
True, I had a different picture about it. Tbf I still don't get why doesn't the table contain only the punishments,
why adding -1s to all unchanged upped cards? * It is pretty straightforward that an upped card takes an upped place
in the deck, these flying negatives look like everybody get a whipping. This method seems pretty inverted to me
compared with the naturally intuitive version. Because -0,5s look strange this way. Let's see if I understand it.
-0,5 for an unupped card - Because it is instead of a 0, it gets a half upgrade penalty for the deck.
-0,5 for an upped card - Because it is instead of a -1, it gets a half upgrade bonus for the deck.
Am I correct?
* Guess it is easier for GDocs to keep track of legality of the deck. I simply had a different thinking,
"modifier" meant to me 'this is how it will modify upgrade count in the deck'. Again, I'm not thinking like a programmer. Nvm.
Post by: Ginyu on December 14, 2019, 12:52:28 am
With the numbers as they are currently on the tables, you can easily calculate your total upgrades. Having to distract another -1 per upgraded card, if you only include the penalties, just makes it more complicated.
Post by: dawn to dusk on December 14, 2019, 01:18:59 am
Post by: immortal feud on December 14, 2019, 03:44:07 am
Post by: dawn to dusk on December 14, 2019, 04:03:24 am
Post by: Mobian on December 14, 2019, 06:40:48 am
Post by: Wyand on December 14, 2019, 09:28:40 am
Post by: serprex on December 15, 2019, 06:40:33 pm
What happened with Discard boost? Bring it back, 90 card threshold is already pretty harsh.
Discard: this encourages what's already a tendency we'd prefer to discourage where teams send their weakest decks against the strongest teams
90 cards: this is a result of teams never sending out a reduced roster
Post by: Wyand on December 15, 2019, 07:07:20 pm
What happened with Discard boost? Bring it back, 90 card threshold is already pretty harsh.
Discard: this encourages what's already a tendency we'd prefer to discourage where teams send their weakest decks against the strongest teams
Not necessarily. We simply used it to minimize possible losses meanwhile sending a suitable (but not weak) deck for the task.
90 cards: this is a result of teams never sending out a reduced roster
Reduced roster? What does that mean?
Post by: worldwideweb3 on December 15, 2019, 09:58:14 pm
Post by: serprex on December 15, 2019, 11:23:51 pm
Can we have an example deck pls just to make it a bit clear how these points work etc kthnxbye
Base = 6
6 Deja Vu = +3
6 RoL = -3
3 Luciferin = +4.5
1 Eternity = -0.5
4 Towers = -4
6 Sundial = -6
3 Hope = 0
1 Time Factory = 0
Post by: iancudorinmarian on December 16, 2019, 07:28:14 am
Post by: moehrpi on December 16, 2019, 04:18:22 pm
Maybe Alchemist is fine as it is, I might need to think about upgrade cost a bit more. With Transmutations generally it just put me a bit off. But with cards as currency it might be fine. I generally like the concept, it's just going to be a pain in the arse when it comes to deckbuilding.
tl;dr: I'd be happy with 10/7/4 upgrade points.
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on December 16, 2019, 04:57:24 pm
Total upgrades seem lowIt's 12/9/6 right now.
tl;dr: I'd be happy with 10/7/4 upgrade points.
Post by: immortal feud on December 17, 2019, 06:11:10 am
Post by: iancudorinmarian on December 17, 2019, 07:15:47 am
as a suggestion can we use Lt role twice if we roll 2 generals in the same round?No.
Post by: Wyand on December 19, 2019, 12:47:10 am
it is last War, it has to be a full experience!
Post by: Wyand on January 05, 2020, 11:45:44 am
made since then so this makes me curious, will any change happen?
Also: did any changes happen to the card 'prices' lately?
Post by: iancudorinmarian on January 05, 2020, 12:07:07 pm
What is the final threshold for elimination? Yep, the initial post states that it is 90, but there were some arrangementsIt will remain at 90.
made since then so this makes me curious, will any change happen?
Also: did any changes happen to the card 'prices' lately?
Unless serp made some ninja changes, no.
Post by: Wyand on January 05, 2020, 12:20:33 pm
wise to make it lower.
Post by: Wyand on January 05, 2020, 02:35:10 pm
Add 3 Disco = 9 ups. Having only the chance giving 3 more ups severely affects its usefulness.
Yeah, we can trick around with less useful cards to gain upgrades, but don't think
deckbuilding should be about "add crap cards to gain upgrades".
The same applies for a SoSeBow. 6 Upped SoSe and SNova = 6+3 ups.
You have 3 ups space if you don't add Disco, but you can also add less useful cards...
Post by: serprex on January 05, 2020, 04:35:06 pm
Unless serp made some ninja changes, no.
No ninja changes since at least before Christmas. At this point I consider the modifiers final
Post by: Wyand on January 06, 2020, 01:54:02 pm
Unless serp made some ninja changes, no.
No ninja changes since at least before Christmas. At this point I consider the modifiers final
Cmon consider upped SoSe for 0. And I quite don't get why Pest is -0.5. Already scary enough
(especially with bows and immo decks crippled) and it gets a bonus, too... why?
Post by: serprex on January 06, 2020, 05:40:44 pm
Fallen Elf has been changed from 2.5/1.5 to 2/1
Schr�ger's Cat has been changed from 2.5/2 to 2/1.5
Numbers are final. There will no future changes
Post by: Wyand on January 06, 2020, 07:01:28 pm
somewhat viable bows? WTH! At least we had those 2 creatures to somewhat mitigate the troubles,
but, nooo, Wyand still criticizing, let's ruin those options, as well! Don't be cruel, serp, revert those
changes... :'(
Post by: serprex on January 11, 2020, 12:43:49 am
Post by: MyNameIsJoey on January 11, 2020, 12:46:38 am
Post by: deuce22 on January 11, 2020, 12:57:36 am
Would teams like an extension of vault building until end of month?
ambivalent, but nothing wrong with providing more time, especially with new deckbuilding constraints
Post by: Wyand on January 11, 2020, 01:03:18 am
Ideally R1 should start no later than 01.27.
ps: Is there a vaultbuilding tool yet? Last year's version would be perfect, just delete prices.
ps2: And please, fix oetg vanilla! :-*
Post by: andretimpa on January 11, 2020, 02:13:04 am
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on January 11, 2020, 08:02:01 am
Would teams like an extension of vault building until end of month?Personally, I'm unavailable for an entire week soon, so this would be fabulous.
Post by: shockcannon on January 25, 2020, 09:28:34 pm
- "Discards" may only be chosen from the losing deck. If there is less than the required non-pillar/pendulum/marks cards in the deck, the remaining cards will be taken from other decks fielded this round, then salvage, & only after that from cards in vault.
Is this a healthy change for War? There won't be any fodder vaults like time had last war.
Post by: andretimpa on January 25, 2020, 10:16:55 pm
Post by: Wyand on January 25, 2020, 10:17:41 pm
- "Discards" may only be chosen from the losing deck. If there is less than the required non-pillar/pendulum/marks cards in the deck, the remaining cards will be taken from other decks fielded this round, then salvage, & only after that from cards in vault.
Is this a healthy change for War? There won't be any fodder vaults like time had last war.
How did I miss that? It is an awful change, punishing in a very awful way. I get the point that serp hates the idea of discard fodder,
but maximizing Vault size already reduced the usage of them.
If I understand correctly... you lose a match, the losing deck has 16 non-quanta cards, so you lose them AND 8 cards from your other
(winning!!!) deck. Why punish a winning deck? This is insane. Don't do that please. We have to run 24 non-ppm cards in a deck
to make other decks safe, or what?
It isn't that often for teams to run suicide decks, and just because of these rare exceptions there shouldn't be a rule which
punishes winning decks.
Post by: serprex on January 25, 2020, 10:22:44 pm
Post by: Wyand on January 25, 2020, 10:29:02 pm
Post by: serprex on February 04, 2020, 05:47:52 pm
Post by: mathman101 on February 04, 2020, 06:11:24 pm
it's impossible for teams to not face in R2 at least one team they faced in R1.
Does this mean that R2 will not be adjusted manually so that each team faces the 3 teams that were not faced in R1, as what that rule had been intended for?
Post by: serprex on February 04, 2020, 06:24:14 pm
it's impossible for teams to not face in R2 at least one team they faced in R1.
Does this mean that R2 will not be adjusted manually so that each team faces the 3 teams that were not faced in R1, as what that rule had been intended for?
I'll be doctoring the matchups in R2 to that effect
Post by: Wyand on February 10, 2020, 08:09:25 pm
I understand that we don't like discard fodders now, at the same time I feel that problem has been
already solved by other measures. Most of the time 15 discards from a deck will already kill that deck,
but in other cases you can save a few cards by having to discard that extra 9 cards from the vault.
Any opinions on this?
Post by: serprex on February 10, 2020, 08:21:01 pm
This year from R3 there is straight 24 discards from deck, and not 15 from deck + 9 from vault.
I understand that we don't like discard fodders now, at the same time I feel that problem has been
already solved by other measures. Most of the time 15 discards from a deck will already kill that deck,
but in other cases you can save a few cards by having to discard that extra 9 cards from the vault.
Any opinions on this?
First, we've already come up with an EC to mitigate the R3 discards. Second, transmutation is much cheaper than in the past
Post by: worldwideweb3 on February 10, 2020, 08:25:15 pm
Post by: Wyand on February 10, 2020, 09:00:58 pm
I thought all discards from deck rule got changed, yikes. Yh 15/9 or something is better
I think the only change happened, that you don't have to discard from other decks if you have less than 24 non-ppm cards in a deck.
First, we've already come up with an EC to mitigate the R3 discards. Second, transmutation is much cheaper than in the past
I admit I don't get it. R1 or R2 EC mitigated that? And I agree, transmutation is cheaper, alchemist role is more popular than earlier I think.
Still my opinion is that since a team loses 24 cards by every loss, giving some extra comfort space is generally is a nice thing to do.