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Elements the Game => Newbie Area => Tutorials => Topic started by: Scaredgirl on February 23, 2010, 05:57:29 pm

Title: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: Scaredgirl on February 23, 2010, 05:57:29 pm
9 Tips for Better Deck Building


1# Think of deck building as math
Forget Dragons and Fire Lances. Like all CCG's, Elements is basically just math. It all revolves around numbers and words like statistics, probabilities, etc. Unless you fully understand this, you will never be a successful deck builder.


2# Keep it simple
When you start playing Elements, don't try to make a super deck that can survive all situation and beat every single deck out there because that is impossible. Instead, try to keep it as simple as possible.

For example a popular Earth deck:
Mark of Time
17 x Earth Pillar
1 x Short Sword
6 x Graboids
6 x Shrieker

The whole deck has only 4 different kinds of cards and is based on only one thing: fast damage. At first you might think this deck sucks because it's so one-dimensional, but the reality is that it stomps most of the other mono-decks out there because although it's one-dimensional, it's really good at what it does.

Exception to this rule is rainbow decks which are supposed to be more complex. But even these seemingly complex rainbow decks generally have one "master plan" that the whole deck is based on. So in a way they too are simple.


3# Pick cards that work well together
Best way is to always have one strategy or "trick" around which you build your whole deck. Don't just take random cards like Dragons for direct damage if your deck is about something else like poison. Every single card in the deck has to serve a purpose and be a part of the team. All the successful decks have synergy between the cards.



4# Optimize the number of copies of each card
This is the core of deck building in all collectible card games. The more copies of a specific card you have in your deck, the more often you will draw it.

What is the optimal number of copies of a specific card? There's no perfect answer for that but you could do it like this:

- main cards (6-5 copies) that your strategy is based upon, and which you generally want to have in your hand as soon as possible. If you have a card that you have to have in your opening hand, always take 6 copies of it.

- support cards (4-3 copies) that help with your strategy but might not be needed to play early in the game. Good example of this would be a card that gives buffs to your main damage creatures. You cannot use the buffs before you have your creatures out, so having them in your opening hand is not crucial.

- extra cards (2-1 copies) that are not really a big part of your strategy but are useful at some point of the game. Good example of this would be taking a single Eternity just to prevent decking out.

There are of course many exceptions to the above rules (for example rainbow decks) but it's still something you might want to consider when building those first decks.

There are also situations where you should take cards based on how fast you need them, and not how many you need them.

For example if you have a time deck that uses Anubis, you really need to only one of them. However it's very important that you can play that one Anubis as fast as possible. If you have only of Anubis in your deck, that card will often be at the bottom of the deck, ruining your whole strategy. This is why you should probably take at least 3 copies even though you only need one.


5# Fine-tune the number of Pillars
Too often I have heard the words:"I'll take an extra pillar because you can never have too much quantum". Wrong. You CAN have too much quantum. Having extra quantum doesn't kill you opponent, your creatures and spells do. And if you keep drawing those Pillars instead of creatures of spells, you will lose.

Having too few Pillars is also a problem because it can lead to bad draws. This is why we need to find the optimal number of Pillars. Remember the 1st tip, it's all math.

There is no clear rule on how many Pillars you should take. It all depends on the quantum usage of your cards and whether or not you have upgraded Pillars. The optimal amount is usually something between 30-50% of the total number of cards in your deck, meaning that in a deck of 30 cards, you should have about 10-15 Pillars.

If you build an unupgraded 30 card deck and have no idea what the optimal amount is, I recommend you first take 14 Pillars, and then test it out. Remember, do NOT change the number of Pillars based an a couple of bad draws. This is a very common mistake people do. You should have at least 20 matches before you start seeing any real statistical evidence.

When you can play cards relatively fast without always having extra quantum, that is when you have found the optimal number of Pillars.

EDIT: You can also use QI theory to help you find the optimal number of Pillars. Link: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,5676


6# Keep the number of cards to a minimum
Take only as many cards as you absolutely NEED.

Having 60 cards in your deck doesn't make you cool or doesn't mean you do more damage than the other guy. Remember that Elements is math. If you have 60 cards on your deck, the chances of a bad draw become much greater than with a 30 card deck.

For example lets say you have multiple Anubis on your deck. It's an expensive card to play so it might not be good to draw too many of them early in the game because you won't be able to pay for them. Lets say you have a 30 card deck with 3 Anubis, the worst case scenario is that you draw all 3 in your opening hand. That sucks but you might still survive if the other 4 cards are for example Pillars. But if you have a 60 card deck with 6 Anubis, and you draw them all in your opening hand, it's pretty much game over because it's going to take a long time before you can do anything and during that time your opponent with crush you.

I have this rule: never take more than 30 cards in your deck if you have no way of drawing extra cards.

Why only 30? Well, because you don't need more than 30. Sometimes you will deck out but you cannot try to "fix" it by adding more cards because then you will get more draws and lose twice as much.

If you do have a way of drawing extra cards (like Sundial of Hourglass) then you should probably take more than 30 cards although that also depends of what kind of deck you are running.

To find out what the optimal number of cards for you deck is, pay close attention on how many cards are left in your deck when the match is over. If you generally have 0-3 cards left, you are probably close to an optimal number.


7# Choose your mark carefully

Speed = Power.

Matches in Elements are very of them decided by speed. The player who first plays his cards and takes control of the battlefield, is often the winner.

When you choose your mark, don't just take some random mark. Remember that your mark guarantees you one quantum per turn making it very dependable. You need to ask yourself: "What quantum I need the most early in the game?". The answer to that question is what kind of mark you should use.

Also try to avoid using the mark to pay for cards with 3+ cost because it can be too slow. Marks are most useful when used to pay for cards with a cost of 1 or 2 quantum.


8# When playing a rainbow, balance your quantum usage

Having quantum usage spread around all 12 elements gives a higher probability of being able to play cards you are dealt.

If you have too many cards from one element, you will most likely not be able to use them all early in the game. On the other hand, if you have no cards from an element, that quantum is basically wasted.

Mistake I've seen a lot of people do, is that they like a specific card so much, that they take 6 of them, even though the total cost can be as high as 30+ quantum. This is a bad idea. If you get unlucky and draw 4-5 of them early, there is no way you can afford to pay for them all, and you are basically playing with a smaller starting hand.

Another mistake is not taking a single card from some of the elements. If you don't use an element at all, you should really try to find at least one card from it. When you draw this card, you will most likely have the quantum to pay for it so essentially the card is free. Even if there were some slightly better cards for your deck, the fact that you can play this card instantly, is a huge advantage because it makes your deck faster.

There are of course situations where one elements just doesn't have any useful cards for your deck. In this case you should just skip that element and not force yourself to take something just to balance the quantum usage.


9# Design your own decks
Don't just copy-paste a deck made by a veteran player and play that exact deck for the next 3 months because
there are no "perfect" decks out there. I'm sure all the decks in the Forums and Wiki could be improved somehow, especially with new cards are being introduced and old ones being rebalanced. This is why you should use these ideas only as a base for your own creations.

Start simple by changing one or two cards and see how it affects the overall performance. If you see a positive effect, change some more cards. Always remember to play at least 10 (or even 20+) matches with your new deck before making any conclusions on it's effectiveness because randomness of CCG's might give you statistically wrong results.
Title: Re: 10 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: -Phiryos- on February 23, 2010, 06:32:03 pm
Nice.

Would a tip about the importance of the trainer seem too obvious?
Title: Re: 10 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: Scaredgirl on February 23, 2010, 06:43:05 pm
Nice.

Would a tip about the importance of the trainer seem too obvious?
That's a good idea. I didn't add it because I thought it doesn't really have to do with deck building, but now that I think about it, it does have to do with deck building. It's actually a big part of it, especially for people who don't have piles of cash.

I'll add it. Thanks.
Title: Re: 10 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: PuppyChow on February 23, 2010, 11:37:56 pm
Quote
You need to ask yourself: "What quantum I need the most early in the game?". The answer to that question is what kind of mark you should use.

Also don't use the mark to pay for cards with 3+ cost because it's too slow. Marks are most useful when used to pay for cards with a cost of 1 quantum.
I disagree with this. What mark you take depends on your deck.

In a lava destroyer deck, I would take mark of earth even though you need that 5 fire quantum earlier since you need much less earth.

Many decks can use the mark to power 3, at least, cost cards, simply because the deck has lots of stalling or healing. If it's a speed deck, yes, 1-2 is the best, but for decks not based on speed 3-4 is easily do able (though devourers can screw it up easier).

Take, for instance, immortal adrenal druid staffs. I would rather take mark of aether to pay for the quintessence versus needing 5+ aether towers in my deck to insure I get one semi early. Taking mark of life would not only also reduce the life tower count (from maybe 10-12 to 7-9) to make room for the aether towers, but also could take away from the number of staffs, adrenalines, animate weapons, and quintessences. So bad draws would be much more likely.

Here's a revised edition of a mark tip :):

To choose a mark, you need to look at your deck and think a little bit. In many decks you should choose your least used quantum and go with that one, for instance an earth deck that uses graboids and shriekers. In some decks you may want to choose the one you need earliest, for instance a rainbow deck that relies on supernovas. In others you could use the one you'll end up needing the most of, for instance a light deck with lots of miracles.
 
If your deck relies on stalling and healing, your deck can usually power higher cost cards (3-4) with your mark. If it relies on speed, you usually only want to power 1 cost cards with it.

In most cases, you want to choose the element that makes bad draws appear the least, while at the same time keeping your deck working fine. So in a duo deck, if it's possible, you want to power one of your elements by simply the mark so your bad draws are greatly reduced.

Also of note is that in a duo deck where you need more than one type of pillar since the mark only just doesn't cut it, your pillar needs for the element of your mark are greatly reduced. In a gravity/earth deck where you would usually need 10 of each type to keep it running smoothly, having a mark of gravity would make it so you only need 5-6 gravity pillars and 10 earth pillars.
Title: Re: 10 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: Scaredgirl on February 24, 2010, 12:17:01 am
That tip #5 (like #6) is made for rainbow decks actually, the title is just wrong. I took them both from an old rainbow post of mine and made some adjustments.

Choosing a mark for a duo deck is pretty obvious but I guess I should add that there as well because it might not be so obvious for new players. Like it says there on the top with yellow letters, "work in progress". :)

But this paying a 4 cost card with a mark only is just silly. Please show me a deck that successfully pulls this off. If the card costs that much, you cannot have many of them in your deck, which means that they will more likely be on the bottom of your deck making you mark totally useless and your deck slow as a snail. Only thing you will be "stalling" is your own death.
Title: Re: 10 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: PuppyChow on February 24, 2010, 12:20:14 am
(Almost) Unupgraded life/aether :P.

10x life pillar
4x druid staff
4x quintessence
4x adrenaline
4x animate weapon
4x heal/4x pillar/4x whatever else you want

Mark of aether. :)

As long as you survive the 4 turns to play a quintessence, you can usually stall for 4 more. And after that it's hard to kill you.
Title: Re: 10 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: PuppyChow on February 24, 2010, 12:49:29 am
Quote
Another mistake is not taking a single card from some of the elements. If you don't use an element at all, you should really try to find at least one card from it. When you draw this card, you will most likely have the quantum to pay for it so essentially the card is free. Even if there were some slightly better cards for your deck, the fact that you can play this card instantly, is a huge advantage because it makes your deck faster.
I disagree with this too. I don't use any light in my deck, but it wouldn't be better if I took a miracle.

When you draw a card, you're also not drawing other cards. So taking a heavy armor just for the sake of taking something from earth doesn't make it good. You need to value every single card in a deck. If you hadn't put in that heavy armor, maybe your next card was that phase shield you needed to win. But you didn't draw it and instead drew the heavy armor and died next turn.

On top of that, you're making your deck more cards than it needs to be, so you have higher probabilities of bad draws.

You should choose cards that make your deck better, not choose cards from a certain element just because you haven't used that element at all.
Title: Re: 10 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: Scaredgirl on February 24, 2010, 01:35:58 am
(Almost) Unupgraded life/aether :P.

10x life pillar
4x druid staff
4x quintessence
4x adrenaline
4x animate weapon
4x heal/4x pillar/4x whatever else you want

Mark of aether. :)

As long as you survive the 4 turns to play a quintessence, you can usually stall for 4 more. And after that it's hard to kill you.
I have never played that deck so this is only talking in theory.

First of all to play a 4 cost card, it takes 5 turns, not 4.

That deck is that it uses 16 Aether Quantum and only has a mark to pay for them. That's way too much imo. What if you draw 3 of those Quintessence in your opening hand? You have a couple of dead cards in your hand for a long long time because no matter what happens you won't be able to pay for them. That's basically playing with a smaller hand, and is a huge advantage for the other player.

In a 30 card deck, I've never gone over 12 mark-paid quantum and probably never will.

Also there's of course the problem that you only have 4 of them in your deck. That means that it's not that unlike for you to not draw any of them early in the game, meaning it takes even longer than 5 turns for you to get that immortality.

I'm not saying that this deck sucks, but it's hardly any evidence that it's a good idea to pay for a 4 cost card with your mark only.


Quote
Another mistake is not taking a single card from some of the elements. If you don't use an element at all, you should really try to find at least one card from it. When you draw this card, you will most likely have the quantum to pay for it so essentially the card is free. Even if there were some slightly better cards for your deck, the fact that you can play this card instantly, is a huge advantage because it makes your deck faster.
I disagree with this too. I don't use any light in my deck, but it wouldn't be better if I took a miracle.

When you draw a card, you're also not drawing other cards. So taking a heavy armor just for the sake of taking something from earth doesn't make it good. You need to value every single card in a deck. If you hadn't put in that heavy armor, maybe your next card was that phase shield you needed to win. But you didn't draw it and instead drew the heavy armor and died next turn.

On top of that, you're making your deck more cards than it needs to be, so you have higher probabilities of bad draws.

You should choose cards that make your deck better, not choose cards from a certain element just because you haven't used that element at all.
This is not a matter of opinion really. It's pure math and general theory of deck building.

I'm not saying you have to take cards from all elements. I'm saying you should try to take cards from all elements. Of course if there are no useful cards available, you should skip that element. But remember, a good card that you can play is better than a great card you cannot play.

And I've never said taking cards from all elements means making your deck bigger. Read my tip #4.
Title: Re: 10 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: vrt on February 24, 2010, 02:41:38 am
Not getting stuck on a strategy, and being willing to experiment (even if in the trainer) is fairly important too. I stared myself to death on a gravity-based FG killer until I realised it wasn't going to happen..
Title: Re: 10 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: PuppyChow on February 24, 2010, 03:59:33 am
With your tip about marks, you seem to be dealing with absolutes. I was just saying that there ARE exceptions. Nothing is rigid, and you shouldn't give newbs the idea that if they follow a given set of rules, since that could actually make them bad deck builders.

As to you never using 12 quantum, have you EVER tried a earth/time with 6 graboids and 6 rewinds (and 6 quicksands)? It kills in pvp. You really should give it a try.

(And that deck I gave does work. It isn't the best, but it IS a case where 4 quantum to power the quintessences is ideal for that deck. If you tried it with aether pillars you would get even more bad draws.)

Quote
This is not a matter of opinion really. It's pure math and general theory of deck building.

I'm not saying you have to take cards from all elements. I'm saying you should try to take cards from all elements. Of course if there are no useful cards available, you should skip that element. But remember, a good card that you can play is better than a great card you cannot play.

And I've never said taking cards from all elements means making your deck bigger. Read my tip #4.
When newbs read "If you don't use an element at all, you should really try to find at least one card from it," they won't read it as you intended. They'll think you mean "Any good rainbow always uses all types of quantum." It doesn't matter what you mean, it matters what they think you mean. In other words, alter the meaning so it's more clear you don't HAVE to take all types of elements. Just leaving it at "don't overuse an element" is much better.

Leaving an element underused is perfectly fine; you're sacrificing some quanta for a better chance to draw your best cards that are NEEDED for your main strategy. I would always rather have an oty/RoF/permafrost shield I can't yet play than a heavy armor I can. Because I know I have a higher chance of drawing a supernova/quantum tower than I do an oty/RoF/permafrost shield.

You may have meant the right thing, but you should make your wording clearer.
Title: Re: 10 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: Scaredgirl on February 24, 2010, 11:48:28 am
As to you never using 12 quantum, have you EVER tried a earth/time with 6 graboids and 6 rewinds (and 6 quicksands)? It kills in pvp. You really should give it a try.

Yeah, I've played that deck. Read again what I said. I said I never go OVER that 12 quantum. I have used that 12 many times.

For example this speed poison I made uses 12 mark-paid quantum http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,365 and it works really well. Difference between your deck and this one is that all those cards cost only 1 quantum to play so even if I draw a bunch of them, I can still start playing them fast, instead of having to wait for 5 turns.


(And that deck I gave does work. It isn't the best, but it IS a case where 4 quantum to power the quintessences is ideal for that deck. If you tried it with aether pillars you would get even more bad draws.)

Well, that depends on how you define "works". I'm pretty sure we both know that the deck is not that great and fails big time in those situations I talked about. I think this has more to do about trying to desperately win an argument than to what "works".

If you wanted to make that deck perform better, you don't of course simply change the mark to pillars, you change other cards as well. If you want I can build a better performing version of that deck and show it to you.


Not getting stuck on a strategy, and being willing to experiment (even if in the trainer) is fairly important too. I stared myself to death on a gravity-based FG killer until I realised it wasn't going to happen..
Yes, that's what's I've done many time as well. There are many not-so-popular cards that I've tried to make work many times but always failed simply because the cards just suck :)  Also some people do the exact opposite and give up after a couple of tries, which is also not good.
Title: Re: 10 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: Laxaria on February 24, 2010, 03:30:52 pm
Interesting thread.

Perhaps add:

Quote
It is often more efficient, in the long run, to fine tune your deck to work well against a specific set of strategies at the expense of losing against others. In application to FG farmers, it is almost often better to fine tune a deck and use it in a manner that almost guarantees a win against easier gods, while letting you forfeit against the notably much harder ones. The time investment is reduced in battles while at the same time significantly increasing your time spent fighting for a win to grab a card spin.

This can also be applied to AI3 grinding. If you're against an elder with a discord and you are using a monodeck, if you have the best edge to counter the discord, go ahead. However, if the elder had just played it on the first few turns and you have not managed to set up a means to deal enough damage, forfeit. Although you lose 10 gold, you spend less time trying to fight for a win that may not always happen and more time in a battle that you might win.
Title: Re: 10 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: Glitch on February 24, 2010, 06:03:51 pm
For one of the tips put versatility.

If you can't decide between two cards, pick the one that'll be used more often.  E.G, when building a dark deck, two steals and a nightfall are arguably better than two nightfalls and a steal.
Title: Re: 10 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: plastiqe on February 27, 2010, 05:14:38 pm
As a player that has used dragons and fire lances to great effect in pvp, I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with a couple things on your list Scaredgirl.

#2  Keep It Simple

This title is incorrect.  Rule number 2 (or even rule #1) should be something like 'decide what you want your deck to be good at, pick a theme and stick too it'.  If you are just starting out in Elements and you want to make some quick cash then fast damage could be your theme, and then keep it simple could apply.  Success against false gods could be another theme and your exception could apply.  Or, if you're like me and are playing pvp, then you might want a "super deck" that is adaptable and has a chance to beat any deck you come up against.

3# Carefully fine-tune the number of your Pillars

While I don't disagree with the title of this tip, there are exceptions.  Cards like Fahrenheit and Dissipation Field get better the more quantum you have stored up.  This goes back to picking a theme for your deck, but sometimes your extra quantum will be what actually kills your opponent.

4# Don't take too many cards

You also need to account for how many copies of each card you take, which I think is the determining factor in how large your deck ends up.  Do you really need 4 copies of FFQ or will 2 suffice?  Perhaps this could be it's own tip, but a lot of deckbuilding is deciding just how many of each card you really need to bring.
Title: Re: 10 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: Scaredgirl on February 27, 2010, 05:59:29 pm
Interesting thread.

Perhaps add:

Quote
It is often more efficient, in the long run, to fine tune your deck to work well against a specific set of strategies at the expense of losing against others. In application to FG farmers, it is almost often better to fine tune a deck and use it in a manner that almost guarantees a win against easier gods, while letting you forfeit against the notably much harder ones. The time investment is reduced in battles while at the same time significantly increasing your time spent fighting for a win to grab a card spin.

This can also be applied to AI3 grinding. If you're against an elder with a discord and you are using a monodeck, if you have the best edge to counter the discord, go ahead. However, if the elder had just played it on the first few turns and you have not managed to set up a means to deal enough damage, forfeit. Although you lose 10 gold, you spend less time trying to fight for a win that may not always happen and more time in a battle that you might win.
Yes, this will be one of the tips. I'm calling it "Know Your Enemy". It's definitely a very important part of deck building, especially in PvE.


For one of the tips put versatility.

If you can't decide between two cards, pick the one that'll be used more often.  E.G, when building a dark deck, two steals and a nightfall are arguably better than two nightfalls and a steal.
Question of versatility is not a simple one. Many decks that try to be versatile become more well-rounded but also become weaker in all aspects. "One-trick-ponies" on the other hand do only one thing, but they do it extremely well.

A good example of this is Earth or Fire speed decks. Both of them are ridiculously one-dimensional, but also very effective. Sometimes it's better to specialize than to try to do everything.

This is why I don't usually advise newbies to build well-rounded decks because it almost always backfires, and they take cards that they don't really need, making their deck weaker in the process. Good example of this is taking defensive cards when fighting AI3.

3# Carefully fine-tune the number of your Pillars

While I don't disagree with the title of this tip, there are exceptions.  Cards like Fahrenheit and Dissipation Field get better the more quantum you have stored up.  This goes back to picking a theme for your deck, but sometimes your extra quantum will be what actually kills your opponent.
Yes, those two cards are an exception. I tried to give a general outline of what kind of strategy to use, instead of explaining all the possible scenarios with different cards. But you are right I should probably mention those two.


4# Don't take too many cards

You also need to account for how many copies of each card you take, which I think is the determining factor in how large your deck ends up.  Do you really need 4 copies of FFQ or will 2 suffice?  Perhaps this could be it's own tip, but a lot of deckbuilding is deciding just how many of each card you really need to bring.
Yep. This is what the deck building is all about and I'm definitely adding it. This is actually the core of deck building, and the #2 most important thing after "what cards to take".


Thanks for your feedback and ideas.

I should finish this post asap.
Title: Re: 10 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: plastiqe on March 06, 2010, 10:37:05 pm
The updated first post is a nice improvement SG, just gotta think of something for #9.  Couple thoughts I had:

Since rule #8 is about rainbow decks #9 could be about building mono decks. 

Or it could be about building pvp decks cause I see a lot of new players that join the pvp league asking for deck tips. 

Other things that you could expand on are the CCG concepts of metagame, card advantage and tempo.  Maybe just title rule #9 as Advanced Topics and provide a definition for each.

Grammar in #7... Matches in Elements are very often decided by speed.
Title: Re: 10 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: 918273645 on March 07, 2010, 12:59:11 am
Good tips! I notice the T50s revolve around these! But there is one thing... Where is #9?  ???
Title: Re: 10 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: TheMadEvil on March 10, 2010, 02:40:14 pm
not sure if this matters to anyone, but the hardest problem i have with building a deck here is the min/max - 30 cards is not a lot at all, it means you actually have at most 20 cards after quanta producers...this is very different from all other games i've played, which have a min of 50-60 cards, giving you much more leeway to include multiple copies. For example, MtG has a 60 card min, with a 4 copy max, as opposed to Elements's 30 card min, 6 copy max. 30 cards with 6 per means after 3 cards and pillars, you've pretty much hit 30 cards. This is a very hard concept to get over a lot of the time, and will only get worse when more cards are introduced.
just a thought, maybe making a note of how many of each card to use vs. how many types of cards (i know you list how many of each type - support, main, etc. - but how do i know which cards to cut and so on)
don't hate me if this is actually covered already, i might have misread or missed that section
Title: Re: 10 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: Kameda on March 10, 2010, 02:57:42 pm
Well, the mana in MtG don't stay there until you use it. It actually hurts you if you don't use until the final of your turn.
Title: Re: 10 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: Ashebrethafe on March 10, 2010, 04:10:44 pm
Well, the mana in MtG don't stay there until you use it.
Unless there's an Upwelling in play, which removes this rule, or you control Omnath, Locus of Mana (only preserves green mana, but that mana makes it bigger). Also, MtG limits you to playing only one land per turn, unlike Elements' pillars (but again, certain cards can relax or eliminate this constraint for you).
Quote
It actually hurts you if you don't use until the final of your turn.
If you're talking about mana burn, it's been eliminated now. The mana just disappears without causing damage. (Yes, this makes some cards better and others worse. No cards received errata to preserve the way they worked with mana burn.)
Title: Re: 10 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: Kameda on March 10, 2010, 04:24:11 pm
Wow o.o it's really been a long time since I stoped playing Magic o.o
Things have changed.
Title: Re: 10 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: Daneman on April 04, 2010, 12:48:21 pm
what happened to tip nine?
Title: Re: 10 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: Indivation on April 06, 2010, 06:59:14 am
Hmm... I'm bad at building decks... Thanks for the help!
Title: Re: 10 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: fung on April 06, 2010, 12:22:13 pm
before reading this post, I never realised deck building is so hard

This is very helpful, thanks alot Scarygirl
Title: Re: 10 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: xenontyler on April 09, 2010, 04:06:18 pm
thank you, il follow this
Title: Re: 10 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: jo_jo_the_joker on May 16, 2010, 09:40:52 pm
ty i have a good deck now :darkness
Title: Re: 10 Tips for Better Deck Building: example of easy fine tuned mono deck
Post by: tynyt on May 26, 2010, 06:09:25 pm
I just started
no upgraded cards... yet undefeated in pvp2!  (6 wins yesterday)

mark: time
6 x devonian dragon
4 x golden hour glass
3 x reverse time
17 x time factory

Most of the time you need 100 damage, so 10 dragon attacks should do the trick.
Play hour glass only when there's no dragons to play and you have 14+ quantum... if you have dragons and no quantum, you need no extra cards (unless you have 3- factory.)
Reverse time WILL make sure you do not loose sooooooo many times.

well... opening hand is almost allways: 3-5 factory 1-2 dragon

90% of games is 7th-9th turn win:
0-0 quantum gain total, 00-00 damage total, turn 1 only factories
4-6 quantum gain total, 00-00 damage total, turn 2 only factories
9-12 quantum gain total, 00-10 damage total, turn 3 a dragon (probably now... next turn for sure)
13-19 quantum gain total, 10-20 damage total, turn 4
18-26 quantum gain total, 30-40 damage total, turn 5 another dragon
22-33 quantum gain total, 50-70 damage total, turn 6 third dragon or hour glass
27-42 quantum gain total, 80-110 damage total, turn 7 third or fourth dragon (maybe now... maybe later)

this deck is not that exciting
this deck is very easy to counter
but
almost never a bad draw


ok... i go play pvp2 now... let's hope i loose some games today!





Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: Ge0metry v1.2 on May 27, 2010, 03:00:38 am
5# Fine-tune the number of Pillars
Too often I have heard the words:"I'll take an extra pillar because you can never have too much quantum". Wrong. You CAN have too much quantum. Having extra quantum doesn't kill you opponent, your creatures and spells do. And if you keep drawing those Pillars instead of creatures of spells, you will lose.

Having too few Pillars is also a problem because it can lead to bad draws. This is why we need to find the optimal number of Pillars. Remember the 1st tip, it's all math.

There is no clear rule on how many Pillars you should take. It all depends on the quantum usage of your cards and whether or not you have upgraded Pillars. The optimal amount is usually something between 30-50% of the total number of cards in your deck, meaning that in a deck of 30 cards, you should have about 10-15 Pillars.

If you build an unupgraded 30 card deck and have no idea what the optimal amount is, I recommend you first take 14 Pillars, and then test it out. Remember, do NOT change the number of Pillars based an a couple of bad draws. This is a very common mistake people do. You should have at least 20 matches before you start seeing any real statistical evidence.

When you can play cards relatively fast without always having extra quantum, that is when you have found the optimal number of Pillars.

It might help to put in a link to your "Quanta Index" thread to help people find the "optimal number of pillars".
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,5676.0.html
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: Scaredgirl on May 27, 2010, 11:43:43 am
5# Fine-tune the number of Pillars
Too often I have heard the words:"I'll take an extra pillar because you can never have too much quantum". Wrong. You CAN have too much quantum. Having extra quantum doesn't kill you opponent, your creatures and spells do. And if you keep drawing those Pillars instead of creatures of spells, you will lose.

Having too few Pillars is also a problem because it can lead to bad draws. This is why we need to find the optimal number of Pillars. Remember the 1st tip, it's all math.

There is no clear rule on how many Pillars you should take. It all depends on the quantum usage of your cards and whether or not you have upgraded Pillars. The optimal amount is usually something between 30-50% of the total number of cards in your deck, meaning that in a deck of 30 cards, you should have about 10-15 Pillars.

If you build an unupgraded 30 card deck and have no idea what the optimal amount is, I recommend you first take 14 Pillars, and then test it out. Remember, do NOT change the number of Pillars based an a couple of bad draws. This is a very common mistake people do. You should have at least 20 matches before you start seeing any real statistical evidence.

When you can play cards relatively fast without always having extra quantum, that is when you have found the optimal number of Pillars.

It might help to put in a link to your "Quanta Index" thread to help people find the "optimal number of pillars".
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,5676.0.html
Good idea. Thanks.
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: Svenningen on June 04, 2010, 05:43:56 am
#9
Dont sell nymphs. this will make u a better player. And telling others all the nymps u got will greatly enlargen ur e-peen
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: Plight on June 11, 2010, 09:02:23 pm
...ya that help i juss. :time
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: tmhopper on June 12, 2010, 02:27:39 pm
I think that having a mark for a 3 quanta card is fine.  look at this AI5 deck:

Code: [Select]
5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f7 6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn

Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: Ant-n-ero on June 12, 2010, 08:48:12 pm
I think that having a mark for a 3 quanta card is fine.  look at this AI5 deck:

Code: [Select]
5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f7 6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn
and what happens if your Fahren is drawn last or in the last 5 or so goes..... your dead.
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: nilsieboy on July 22, 2010, 09:43:39 pm
this are some realy great tips.
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: Toimu13 on July 23, 2010, 09:57:18 am
I didn't know a lot of this.  ty
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: tmhopper on August 04, 2010, 02:30:18 pm
I think that having a mark for a 3 quanta card is fine.  look at this AI5 deck:

Code: [Select]
5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f7 6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn
and what happens if your Fahren is drawn last or in the last 5 or so goes..... your dead.
Think about how unlikely this is.....
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: smuglapse on August 04, 2010, 09:37:40 pm
I think that having a mark for a 3 quanta card is fine.  look at this AI5 deck:

Code: [Select]
5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f7 6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn
and what happens if your Fahren is drawn last or in the last 5 or so goes..... your dead.
Think about how unlikely this is.....
drawn last = 1/30 or 3.3%
drawn last 5 or so = 1/6 or 16.7%
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: Ant-n-ero on August 05, 2010, 05:28:47 pm
I think that having a mark for a 3 quanta card is fine.  look at this AI5 deck:

Code: [Select]
5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f7 6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn
and what happens if your Fahren is drawn last or in the last 5 or so goes..... your dead.
Think about how unlikely this is.....
drawn last = 1/30 or 3.3%
drawn last 5 or so = 1/6 or 16.7%
which IMO, the last X goes are the most important, I'd at least add in 1 more and you will increase your win%/draw%/whatever by a million %(not entirely accurate but yer ^_^)
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: sSethia on August 05, 2010, 05:51:09 pm
I think that having a mark for a 3 quanta card is fine.  look at this AI5 deck:

Code: [Select]
5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f7 6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn
and what happens if your Fahren is drawn last or in the last 5 or so goes..... your dead.
Think about how unlikely this is.....
drawn last = 1/30 or 3.3%
drawn last 5 or so = 1/6 or 16.7%
which IMO, the last X goes are the most important, I'd at least add in 1 more and you will increase your win%/draw%/whatever by a million %(not entirely accurate but yer ^_^)
I would actually add 3 more just to draw them early for more damage. I think it's better that way.
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: karthikking on August 05, 2010, 07:07:34 pm
Is it me or does Dimensional shield kill that deck?
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: sSethia on August 06, 2010, 12:19:37 am
Is it me or does Dimensional shield kill that deck?
Well yeah for 3 turns. But it also stalls it and gives it more :fire for more damage.
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: Lokshott on December 09, 2010, 02:53:41 am
Great topic hope that people can get some use out of this!  >:D 8)
Title: 1 Tip for Better Deck Building
Post by: dragono on December 18, 2010, 10:07:16 am
If you want to have some or lots of rare cards for your deck:
1st: go to trainer
2nd: make a exact copy of your deck
3rd :now take its test(try if it can at least beat 5 elders out of ten)
4th: if it passes then use this deck for improving your deck ,if not make some affordable changes in it
5th: if that works use the deck for improving your deck
6th: use your deck to grind level three and top 50
Title: Balance between creatures/CC/permanent control/pillars & pendulums
Post by: Blues on December 21, 2010, 09:48:03 pm
When building a deck, how do I achieve a balance between
- creatures
- creature control
- permanent control
- pillars/pendulums     ?
How much of every card type should be in a deck?
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: Braindead999 on January 20, 2011, 11:24:09 pm
Hello Scaredgirl

thx for taking the time for posting all those guides.

One thing i've been trying to figure out is what are the ration in building a deck.

I notice your earth deck posted as an example.

has 30 cards:
17 Pillars
1 Weapon
6 low cost creatures
6 high cost creatures

i also noticed  no chance of using the graboid spell.

do you think that's a rule that can be applied to any mono deck?  (how about darkness element?)


thank you

edit: I just noticed Blues Post :D
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: ddevans96 on January 21, 2011, 01:12:16 am
Hello Scaredgirl

thx for taking the time for posting all those guides.

One thing i've been trying to figure out is what are the ration in building a deck.

I notice your earth deck posted as an example.

has 30 cards:
17 Pillars
1 Weapon
6 low cost creatures
6 high cost creatures

i also noticed  no chance of using the graboid spell.

do you think that's a rule that can be applied to any mono deck?  (how about darkness element?)


thank you

edit: I just noticed Blues Post :D
Graboid spell? If you mean the ability 'evolve' which turns it into a Shrieker, that is taken care of by the Mark of Time.

And while this can be applied to several elements, most elements have a better mono deck you can use.
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: Braindead999 on January 22, 2011, 06:10:09 am
ddevans,
yes ability sry not familiar with the game terms yet.
between this thread, the Q index and the trainer i think i got the basics.
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: vidurkhanna on April 20, 2011, 08:20:48 am
this was amazingly helpful!!

ty SG
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: d-von on August 19, 2011, 09:51:39 pm
nice, the pillar ratio explanation is incredible. i used to alwwways have a pillar problem whether being drawing to many or too little.
(imma noob)  :water  :)
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: Infinityforever on September 16, 2011, 10:03:15 am
This stuff is absolutly helpful. Once I cut the clutter, I got much faster kills. Thank you.
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: sprtstr14 on September 22, 2011, 08:28:44 pm
I loved, this. SG you rock!
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: Fluffy Ninja on September 24, 2011, 12:37:58 pm
Thx for the infomation,  ;D
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: NDeathy on September 24, 2011, 03:18:46 pm
Thanks alot for the tips! It will help me in the future!

Regards :P
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: ~Feng~ on October 09, 2011, 11:24:33 am
well thanks, that's very helpful. But can rainbow deck attend activity like war?
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: mrpklord on October 25, 2011, 03:25:20 am
These are some really pro tips, recommened for new/dumb players  ;)
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: Mallyce on October 31, 2011, 10:06:48 pm
Very helpfull thread, thank you! Pillar ratios is something that I especially needed to hear explained well.
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: togkiloki on March 08, 2012, 10:26:01 am
thanks for the tips, i kept drawing so many pillars until i figured what i was doing wrong out.
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: Aroodwen on June 22, 2012, 10:18:25 pm
Thankyou for the help
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: BumbleSting on August 09, 2012, 04:55:35 pm
Thanks for the tips, this absolutely helped me out a ton with the entire deck-making process, which can sometimes seem a bit daunting
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: zasdd on December 15, 2012, 12:34:29 am
Thanks, it helped me! :)
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: UTTERDARK on January 12, 2013, 04:08:12 pm
thx for the info really helpful
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: Renly on January 21, 2013, 05:24:35 pm
This one is much better than those so called tutorials.
Title: Re: 9 Tips for Better Deck Building
Post by: gogs2 on May 22, 2017, 09:48:20 pm
Yes, thanks for that tutorial.
blarg: