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Offline MyNameIsJoey

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Re: 11th Trials - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64311.msg1262373#msg1262373
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2017, 06:15:08 pm »
This is a suggestions for both trials, war and brawl, where rules are very similar each year.

There should be a post made only of what rules have changed since last time.
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Offline Zawadx

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Re: 11th Trials - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64311.msg1262432#msg1262432
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2017, 02:57:23 pm »
Now that Phase 1 is over, we'd like some feedback on the new system. Was it too much work? Did it feel like a chore? Did you decide to not Trial because Phase 1 was too much workload? Were you frustrated by the points system? What were you aiming for with submissions, scraping a 2, managing a solid 3 or shooting for a 4? Were you daunted that a 4 seemed impossible, and even a 3 way too much work?

All feedback is appreciated. Phase 1 is always a topic of discussion for TrOs and trialists, and we want to come up with a system that's best for everyone. Your feedback would be a great help :]
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Offline MyNameIsJoey

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Re: 11th Trials - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64311.msg1262444#msg1262444
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2017, 04:44:47 pm »
I took for granted that everybody would have 2, and that the 3 and 4 would be subjectively given only to the elites(and not so elites, sometimes O.o)
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Offline Zawadx

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Re: 11th Trials - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64311.msg1262875#msg1262875
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2017, 08:26:53 am »
Next trials we'll probably remove all differences between masters and challengers in phases 1-3. This means masters and challengers would no longer have seperate phase 2s, and there would be no special points for beating masters. Masters would still get to final battle directly.

Thoughts? All remnants of master's tourney is going away, how do you feel about that? Do you think masters should get no benefits at all i.e. they souldn't get to final battle if two challengers have more points?

While you're here, I'd love feedback on my last post.
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Re: 11th Trials - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64311.msg1262876#msg1262876
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2017, 08:32:54 am »
Masters not getting to the final battle would ruin the whole point imo. There's no "defending master".

The rest seem okay, though I personally enjoyed facing other masters as a master instead of random people. If this is removed, I'd still like the extra 0.5 points that was given a few trials ago for beating a master in phase 2, but that's just me.

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Re: 11th Trials - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64311.msg1262878#msg1262878
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2017, 09:05:52 am »
It's hard to give feedback on Phase 1 until points are handed out: only once we know how our effort is rewarded will we be able to tell if "aiming for even higher" would have been too much work.

Masters tournament was great, but the fact that it took place during trials has always been a killer. You really want at least 8 masters participating, but that would not even have been possible this trials. Counting on 8 masters from last term being active AND defending is folly these days, so I have no regrets with it disappearing.

Offline MyNameIsJoey

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Re: 11th Trials - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64311.msg1262883#msg1262883
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2017, 01:18:24 pm »
Next time, consider appointing STANDIN to withdrawals instead of giving free wins, though I do understand that time can be an issue, I think it would be overall fairer. Anyway, a point to be considered imo.
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Offline TheonlyrealBeef

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Re: 11th Trials - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64311.msg1262892#msg1262892
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2017, 04:48:51 pm »
Also, some thoughts on Phase 2:
  • If you are going to have bans, please just arrange it via Trials Overseers by default and put a deadline to it on which all bans are published simultaneously. I personally think this is much easier for participants, it certainly is for me.
  • For the restrictions on deckbuilding mentioned in rules, avoid conditionals where possible. Right now, there were a LOT of them, like creatures that could not be banned, but only if they were from the opponents' main element; cards that would count as two bans if your opponent had the element twice. The more conditionals you add to rules, the harder it is to get a clear total picture.
  • Less restrictions on elemental usage. I'm personally not a great fan of being so restricted in which elements you can use. Also, monos just once? I'd rather see each off-element being unlocked by default for at least one usage, with phase 1 possibly unlocking additional usage.
  • Two weeks was good, if I knew bans in advance, it would have been perfect.

As for Phase 1 points: I think it was some really shady business. There should be clear guidelines on what is needed to reach how many points as well as an overview of why whom earned how many. Right now, you can't help but notice TrOs getting ridiculously many. Even if the rating happened fairly, TrOs had the advantage of being the only ones to know how Phase 1 would be rated: they knew exactly how much effort to put in, whereas the participants weren't told shit. This is a horrible system that promotes distrust towards TrOs.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 05:39:51 pm by TheonlyrealBeef »

Offline MyNameIsJoey

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Re: 11th Trials - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64311.msg1263108#msg1263108
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2017, 01:15:39 am »
we were discussing torb's point in chat, and this happened

[21:08:22] ‹worldwideweb3› I think he felt more than TrO's knew how much to write/do. Don't think he knew we could ask for feedback before end of phase 1 on our tasks
[21:08:25] ‹ji412jo› You're currently 2 points ahead, Aves would need to beat me by 30% votes to go to final, so I'm expecting to face you, with something around the 5 upgrades disadvantage.
[21:08:33] ‹worldwideweb3› *that not than
[21:08:57] ‹ji412jo› ‹@worldwideweb3› we could ask if our tasks were worth at least 2 points, not for if they were worth more.
[21:10:20] ‹Ryli› Mine could have been more, but I switched task on the last day and wrote it up in an hour :silly:
[21:10:30] ‹worldwideweb3› we could ask that too jijo
[21:10:56] ‹ji412jo› ‹@worldwideweb3› I was told we could not, therefore if it was possible then I'll riot alongside torb.
[21:11:18] ‹ji412jo› 3 upgrades can make a big difference.
[21:11:55] ‹ji412jo› I did my phase 1 on the first day it was posted, I would have had a lot of time to try and upgrade it.
[21:12:01] ‹Physsion› Perhaps we weren't clear enough about exactly what could be asked for, I gave a few evaluations suggesting 3 or 4 points myself, not sure what the other two were doing
[21:12:32] ‹ji412jo› ‹@Physsion› Afda told me my tasks were worth 2 points, and that he could not tell me more.
[21:12:40] ‹worldwideweb3› zaw told me it's borderline 2/3 with 3 if I did more work on it
[21:13:04] ‹ji412jo› ‹@worldwideweb3› Seriously now?
[21:13:14] ‹worldwideweb3› I was happy with 3 anyways so it was fine
[21:13:28] ‹ji412jo› I'm taking this chat to S&F.

This needs, well its too late, so this needed to be much clearer. The difference between getting average (4) and max (8) points is huge. This sounds like a clear advantage towards some people.
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Offline deuce22

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Re: 11th Trials - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64311.msg1263109#msg1263109
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2017, 01:51:27 am »
Had some discussion this past week with Afda. Here are my thoughts on some things:

Bonus points
-Overall, way too many bonus point opportunities dilute the actual benefit of bonus points
-War bonus for generals and Brawl boss is fine
-WM bonus is fine
-War bonus for soldiers is way too high for soldiers from winning teams. Just because you were lucky enough to be on a good team and maybe show up for most of your duels does not mean that you deserve more points than a General who probably put in countless more hours of work and finished lower in the standings. Soldiers should get at most the same amount as the last place general. Based on the current ruleset, that would be 2 instead of 4.
-Same thing for brawl bonus
-Trials participation should not be awarded equally. Currently, losing 3 trials and winning 6 consecutive trials get awarded the same bonus...completely illogical. Perhaps change to 0.5 point for trials participation with max 2 points, and 1.0 point for each mastership with max 4 points.

Phase 1
-Waste of time for masters. Many may disagree with me, but trials IMO is about finding suitable challengers, not retesting masters with time-consuming BS. Why do masters have to repeatedly prove their worthiness when they've already done so multiple times. Phase 1 is more "Prove your activity level".
-Not a fan of selecting tasks based on elements to use in Phase 2, especially if you don't know your off-element opponents yet
-similar issue with available upgrades for phase 2. Just drastically increases likelihood of illegal decks
-Personally, I think phase 1 should just be tossed. Or at least award a flat number of points for completion, no graded scale.

Phase 2
-i'm not a fan of off-element duels. Often not facing same opponent, and sometimes not even the same elements. Reducing the amount of duels will benefit everyone.

Phase 3
-fine as is

Phase 4
-change up the deckbuilding and/or bans rules each year

Other thoughts
-Get rid of the "points" system altogether. Master and challenger have same amount of upgrades in final battle, except for bonus point difference
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:54:36 am by deuce22 »

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Re: 11th Trials - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64311.msg1263138#msg1263138
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2017, 02:43:54 pm »
Had some discussion this past week with Afda. Here are my thoughts on some things:

Bonus points
-Overall, way too many bonus point opportunities dilute the actual benefit of bonus points
-War bonus for generals and Brawl boss is fine
-WM bonus is fine
-War bonus for soldiers is way too high for soldiers from winning teams. Just because you were lucky enough to be on a good team and maybe show up for most of your duels does not mean that you deserve more points than a General who probably put in countless more hours of work and finished lower in the standings. Soldiers should get at most the same amount as the last place general. Based on the current ruleset, that would be 2 instead of 4.
-Same thing for brawl bonus
-Trials participation should not be awarded equally. Currently, losing 3 trials and winning 6 consecutive trials get awarded the same bonus...completely illogical. Perhaps change to 0.5 point for trials participation with max 2 points, and 1.0 point for each mastership with max 4 points.

Phase 1
-Waste of time for masters. Many may disagree with me, but trials IMO is about finding suitable challengers, not retesting masters with time-consuming BS. Why do masters have to repeatedly prove their worthiness when they've already done so multiple times. Phase 1 is more "Prove your activity level".
-Not a fan of selecting tasks based on elements to use in Phase 2, especially if you don't know your off-element opponents yet
-similar issue with available upgrades for phase 2. Just drastically increases likelihood of illegal decks
-Personally, I think phase 1 should just be tossed. Or at least award a flat number of points for completion, no graded scale.

Phase 2
-i'm not a fan of off-element duels. Often not facing same opponent, and sometimes not even the same elements. Reducing the amount of duels will benefit everyone.

Phase 3
-fine as is

Phase 4
-change up the deckbuilding and/or bans rules each year

Other thoughts
-Get rid of the "points" system altogether. Master and challenger have same amount of upgrades in final battle, except for bonus point difference

I disagree with many of these suggestions, and I'll make an attempt to argue why I prefer the current system to them.

Bonus Points

I think that many soldiers (though certainly not all) do contribute in meaningful ways to the success of their teams, especially those on the most successful teams.  It takes a team effort to build, mindgate, test, and so on, and it isn't just playing matches.  Likewise, a Brawl Boss is rarely uniquely responsible for the success of their team.

I'm completely ok with revamping the Loyalty Bonus, and giving past masters more points than losing players could make sense.  I do think, however, the intent of the bonus is to reward players for sticking to a single element, rather than to reward them for past successes, so I can also see a case for keeping it as is.

Phase 1

I don't think that the existence of Phase 1 exists only to prove a player's activity, or to actually even prove worthiness.  Perhaps the name of the round could be changed.  The point of the round is to give players a chance to think critically about aspects of the game and their element other than just raw playing skill - designing events, cards, and more.  It adds something to keeping Mastership as being more than just another PVP title.  Since a serious contender should in theory be able to complete any of the tasks, allowing players to choose which tasks to complete based on available elements and upgrades unlocked adds an aspect of macro-strategy that shouldn't be discounted.  This is Trials, not some extended version of a weekly tournament.

I also think that adding the graded scale added some relevance to the tasks, which had previously been free-2-ville, and I think that's a good thing. We want to encourage the most unique aspect of Trials to actually matter, and skill ought to be rewarded! 

I could certainly see some benefit to knowing opponents before Phase 1 is completed, but that necessitates adding a phase 0 for signups.

Phase 2

Players within an element are supposed to have a common list of opponents, and the only exception are the Warrior matches.  Reducing duels isn't needed, but I wouldn't be against increasing the time limit for the round to help ease whatever burdens might exist.

Phase 3

I also have no issues with Phase 3.

Phase 4

Some variation in deckbuilding and bans from year to year can't hurt, though I hesitate to stray too far from what makes Trials what it is.  I like the existence of the points accumulated turning into your upgrades, as it makes EVERY round and match and vote along the way matter for more than just being in the top 2, and playing with an upgrade advantage or disadvantage has an impact on both deck selection and banning strategy in a meaningfully skill-testing way.  The advantage is earned, not given, so it seems hardly unfair.
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Offline deuce22

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Re: 11th Trials - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64311.msg1263253#msg1263253
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2017, 02:12:03 am »
a couple responses to elk's comments

re: bonus points for soldiers - I never said, or even implied, that soldiers don't contribute to the war team. Typically, the general of any team (as long as he/she remains active) is going to do more work than almost any soldier. There are of course always exceptions, and there is no way to account for these when allocating bonus points in trials. But just because a team wins war does not mean all the soldiers were more active than anyone else in war (general or soldier). And the notion that war is only won by a team effort is also grossly incorrect. A good team certainly helps and makes winning war more likely, but I'm gonna guess around half the war winning teams were dominated by a single individual calling all the shots.

re: phase 1 - like I said, many people will disagree with my opinion on this, and I have no problem with that. The idea that phase 1 "adds something to keeping mastership as being more than just a PVP title" seems ridiculous to me. Trials IS a PVP event, and it provides winners with the opportunities to lead an element-based team in War and/or Brawl. Phase 1 and 3 are just additional things that slightly affect the PVP. As for the grading scale, see the above comments by torb and jijo on how well that is working out so far. The subjective nature of phase 1 needs to be removed, otherwise others like torb may quit as well mid-trials.

re: phase 4 - I understand your viewpoint on this, and I hold the same sentiments about preserving the structure of war. However, I haven't really had to change my deckbuilding for the last 4-5 aether final battles, which is kind of boring. Granted, Afda promised me the final battle would be a bit different this trials.

 

anything
blarg: