Dune Scorpion | Dune Scorpion

[RazorSkunk]

You shouldn't have unnecessary cards in your deck.

[$$$man]

You shouldn't have unnecessary cards in your deck.

As in cards, you Don't have to use to win.

[zse]

Is this a bug or is this card really supposed to keep damaging you every time you play a card EVEN AFTER you destroy it??

I got hit with it one time.  Killed it and still received damage with every card I played.  This seems a little TOO harsh since it effectively (time/momentum) has absolutely no way to protect yourself from it.

I mean once you get hit (especially if it is early) your kind of screwed.

The card is perfectly balanced, even if you take Momentum-ability into consideration. Look for example Lava Golem + Quintessence. That's exactly as bad 2 card combo, and there's really just 1 card that can stop it (Thorn Shield).

In case of DuneS, it's NOT that little bugger that's gonna kill you, it's the rest of the deck that needs to be build around the combo, so it will stall you so much that eventually you'll get too much poison. And if you can build a deck that is capable to stall opponent for some 15-25 rounds, isn't it appropriate that you can have a card that's able to finish the job while doing it, and you're not forced to wait for another 20 rounds...

[Xinef]

Some simple calculations for anyone who believes Dune Scorpion is hard to counter.

Player 1: 6 dune scorpions, 6 momentums, 18 other cards
Player 2: 15 pillars, 15 hitters (average rush deck)

Player 1 plays a momentumed dune scorpion, 2 cards, 4/5 quanta cost for 1 growing damage each turn + Neurotoxin.

Player 2 plays on average one pillar per hitter, so that's 2 cards per hitter. 2 poison damage on yourself, 5-15 on opponent depending on your hitters (frogs - ruby dragons). Ok, if you go for dragons you could play 2 towers per dragon, it's still 3 poison damage for you 10-15 damage for opponent per turn. If you go for cheap creatures on the other hand you could play less than 1 pillar per creature. If you play nova/immolation, it's just a replacement for pillars, card count per creature staying roughly the same.

Conclusion: Neurotoxin by itself 'deals back' less than 1/3 of the damage you do each turn. On average, against a rush deck. Killing a rush deck with Neurotoxin itself is nigh impossible.

But... of course the Dune Scorpion player has those 18 other cards in his deck. And momentumed dune scorpions deal 1 damage + 1 more poison each turn. That's roughly equivalent to a physalia, but with much higher initial cost (2 cards, 4 quanta against 1 card 1 quanta), but without the recurring ability cost. If we assume that an average physalia uses it's ability 3 times during a game then it seems that (not counting Neurotoxin) the 6 Dune Scorpion + 6 Unstoppable is equal in power and cost to 6 Physalias.

Conclusion 2: We are 'paying' 6 cards for Neurotoxin.

Conclusion 3: We are paying ~1/5 of our deck to 'return back' around 1/5 to 1/3 of damage per turn our opponent deals. Seems a bit powerful, but generally balanced, especially because if opponent goes first, he will play most of his hand (mostly pillars) before we set up the combo. And there is no guarantee we can set up the Dune Scorpion combo during the first few turns.

Conclusion 4: Against non-rush decks, it greatly depends on the deck. Quantum denial can stop the combo by draining or before a single scorpion is played. Healing decks can outheal poison. Most control decks can kill the scorpions thus suffering only from Neurotoxin.

What about other decks? Those that cannot outheal poison damage, nor prevent it with denial? Well, those are vulnerable to ANY poison based deck, so they should pack Purify if they have access to , or if they don't they have to deal with it. Some decks are vulnerable to poison.



Conclusion 5: IMHO Dune Scorpions are an average card, neither too strong nor too weak. Usually they are more of a nuisance than a game breaker (the previous version of Dune Scorpions was even better at this). Decks with a lot of scorpions/momentums are vulnerable just because they use so many cards to set up this combo fast. Decks with less (eg. 1 scorpion, 1 momentum) need to dig through the whole deck to set up the combo giving you ample time to finish your setup and kill their owner. If I were a stupid False God, I'd be afraid of 'em. But I'm not

[Avenger]

Xinef: you don't have to have 6 of the dunes. You need 3, tops, just to ensure an early enough draw.
You can even rewind it for further use (you are stalling anyway), in case the opponent has purify.
If the opponent has a large deck and no purify, they will die from a single early dune prick.

[Xinef]

Yes, but that greatly decreases your chances of playing one early, so opponent often has enough time to setup. Playing your scorpion when opponent has already played a dozen cards decreases the usefulness of Neurotoxin greatly. It's a trade between reliability and the combos impact on the rest of the deck. You still need momentums or other buffs, so if you take less of both your chances of an early one decreases rapidly.

As for rewinding, you have to do it after it attacks at least once, so it rarely saves it from CC. And you still need more momentums than your opponent has purifys. So, you should either have spare scorpions and momentums, or quint it. I personally prefer using a single quinted momentumed scorpion against FGs, but that's because I use an anubis and 2 quints.

So yes, Dune Scorpion is one of those cards (like EQ, Discord, Devourers) that may be accused of being OP because they win many games if played early enough, but are much less useful if used late, so you have to very carefully choose the right amount. And definitely, Dune Scorpion decks are not the most reliable, which is their main weakness.

[zse]

... And definitely, Dune Scorpion decks are not the most reliable, which is their main weakness.

No way, ESco the Half-Blood Killer (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,11715.0.html) disagrees!
I have >90% win rate on Half-Blood and >80% on PVP2 (not good on FG). So DS-deck can be reliable, but the thing that it gets sooo slow to play with. And like Xinef said, this one too can be out-rushed and OUT-PLAYED by skilled PVP player. But lets be honest here, how often you think rush decks should win against control decks, if the control deck is able to stall over 15 rounds?

[safko01]

The card is perfectly balanced, even if you take Momentum-ability into consideration. Look for example Lava Golem + Quintessence. That's exactly as bad 2 card combo, and there's really just 1 card that can stop it (Thorn Shield).

I suppose your right about the golem/quint combo ... if you ignore phase shields, wings, fog, bone wall, dissipation shield, ice shield, dusk mantle, and procrastination.

Then I guess you could then say well you could do golem/momentum which then I would counter with fire lance, rage potion, lightning, shock wave, congeal, ice bolt, siphon life, Potentially aflatoxins, basilisk bloods, and rewinds.

So as you can see the lava golem combo is not as powerful as the momentum/dune scorp because it has a lot of different cards to counter it.


Xinef I guess after reading your argument you make some good points but IMHO opinion I still feel that the nuerotoxin ability should require an upkeep cost or something because although you made a lot of good points when it came to the chrysoar point you made you did forget one thing.  Chrysoar does require quantum to continue poisoning you while the nuerotoxin just requires one successful prick.  I could potentially be happier if this card at least was a little more expensive to put out.

[zse]

The card is perfectly balanced, even if you take Momentum-ability into consideration. Look for example Lava Golem + Quintessence. That's exactly as bad 2 card combo, and there's really just 1 card that can stop it (Thorn Shield).

I suppose your right about the golem/quint combo ... if you ignore phase shields, wings, fog, bone wall, dissipation shield, ice shield, dusk mantle, and procrastination.

So as you can see the lava golem combo is not as powerful as the momentum/dune scorp because it has a lot of different cards to counter it.

Yes, I did ignore those cards, because they just stall Golem doing it's damage, they don't stop it.

I could argue that stalling of neurotoxin can be done with
Holy Light, Miracle, Emphatic Bond, Druidic Staff, Black Hole, Amber Nymph, Drain Life, Vampire, Liquid Shadow, Vampire Stiletto, Black Nymph, Stone Skin, Antimatter, Purple Nymph, SoD and SoG.
Your list had 8 cards, I have 16... But this debate is pointless and leads nowhere. There is, and more importantly, should be powerful combos of 2+ cards that make non-rush decks viable.

[safko01]

Yes, I did ignore those cards, because they just stall Golem doing it's damage, they don't stop it.

If you read my original post my whole point is that the effect can not be stopped no matter what card you play once you get pricked.  As you point out I can play cards to delay the damage but even the very act of playing those cards is building up the counter more.  Once effected by the dune scorpion only purify can reverse it.

And it costs no additional quantum or anything for this effect.  I'm 8 pendulums away from making my first dune scorpion deck.  I will have a better understanding of how this card works after I use it more.


Until then I withdraw from this debate

[RavingRabbid]

I think this card is overpowered and should be dealt with. It creates an ongoing condition that is exacerbated by what victim does and can only be countered by one card in one element.

Use the one element with the one card.

[Xinef]

... And definitely, Dune Scorpion decks are not the most reliable, which is their main weakness.

No way, ESco the Half-Blood Killer (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,11715.0.html) disagrees!
I have >90% win rate on Half-Blood and >80% on PVP2 (not good on FG). So DS-deck can be reliable, but the thing that it gets sooo slow to play with. And like Xinef said, this one too can be out-rushed and OUT-PLAYED by skilled PVP player. But lets be honest here, how often you think rush decks should win against control decks, if the control deck is able to stall over 15 rounds?

When speaking of win rates, I usually call it "efficiency", while ability to play a certain combo before winning or losing "reliability". Eg. a deck with 6 Dune Scorpions and 6 Momentums might be more reliable but less efficient than a deck with 3 Dune Scorpions and 3 Momentums.

So, Dune Scorpions are less reliable than eg. decks without a combo (simple pillars + hitters rush), so they are not the most reliable
As for efficiency, your win rate seems quite good, but it's hard for me to judge based on this. I'd have to see how well Dune Scorpion decks do in tournaments and similar events.

EDIT:
Or maybe I'll try your deck sometime and that'll suffice to change my mind 97% win rate with a deck very reliant on a combo might indeed mean it is close to 97% reliability, which is not so short of 100% reliability, and I don't know a deck with a higher reliability than that

Xinef I guess after reading your argument you make some good points but IMHO opinion I still feel that the nuerotoxin ability should require an upkeep cost or something because although you made a lot of good points when it came to the chrysoar point you made you did forget one thing.  Chrysoar does require quantum to continue poisoning you while the nuerotoxin just requires one successful prick.  I could potentially be happier if this card at least was a little more expensive to put out.

I did not forget it, I mentioned it when I assumed a Chrysoara uses it's ability on average 3 times, so that I could compare 1 + 3 cost to the 3 + 1 cost, so that the conclusion would be the main difference is you pay the same quanta, but 2 cards instead of one, for the same effect + neurotoxin, so neurotoxin is worth "1 card".
Of course chrysoara and scorpions differ in a few more ways (scorpion stopped by sundial, chrysoara stopped by quantum denial etc.) but they are still similar 0/1/2 base damage + 1 poison / turn creatures.

As for neurotoxin having an upkeep cost... I guess that would only make sense if the state of being neurotoxined had an upkeep cost for the opponent, and to be honest seems the most fitting, but that would extremely nerf the card, so I'm waiting for other suggestions