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Offline TheonlyrealBeef

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Re: There Can Only Be One - Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24168.msg347042#msg347042
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2011, 09:44:43 pm »
5. BATTLE
The amount of battles will be based on the total # of upgraded cards between the two players.
#Battles
2-11Best-of-3
10-29Best-of-5
30Best-of-7
Question about this table... just how many battles will you have with 10-11 upgrades, best of 4? lol

Offline YawnChainHow

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Re: There Can Only Be One - Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24168.msg347263#msg347263
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2011, 06:05:52 am »
Players are allowed to challenge other players as many times as they like. As soon as you are done with one battle, you can start a new one.

[snip]

Losing player is eliminated from the event. Winner absorbs...
Which one is it?

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Re: There Can Only Be One - Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24168.msg347308#msg347308
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2011, 10:19:49 am »
The famous line from the Highlander movie is correctly: "There can be only one".
Just saying.

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Re: There Can Only Be One - Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24168.msg347616#msg347616
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2011, 10:02:39 pm »
derp
my milkshake brings all the boys to the yard and they're like "its better than yours" damn right, its better than yours! i can teach you but i'd have to charge!

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Re: There Can Only Be One - Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24168.msg347627#msg347627
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2011, 10:15:44 pm »
Players are allowed to challenge other players as many times as they like. As soon as you are done with one battle, you can start a new one.

[snip]

Losing player is eliminated from the event. Winner absorbs...
Which one is it?
Both, there's no limit to the amount of players you can challenge, but once you lose.. you're out.
(Although I can see where it can be kinda confusing)

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Re: There Can Only Be One - Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24168.msg350562#msg350562
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2011, 04:11:41 pm »
5. BATTLE
The amount of battles will be based on the total # of upgraded cards between the two players.
#Battles
2-9Best-of-3
10-29Best-of-5
30+Best-of-7
I found this new rule.

I like the concept, but I think it would make more sense like this:

#Battles
2-15Best-of-3
16-31Best-of-5
32Best-of-7
In other words..

#Battles
32-17 players left standing (>50%)Best-of-3
16-3 players left standing (<50%)Best-of-5
2 players left standingBest-of-7
This way numbers would have a meaning and wouldn't be "random". We would also have the epic final battle thing.


The famous line from the Highlander movie is correctly: "There can be only one".
Just saying.
Yes, you are right. I cannot believe I made that mistake. I'll fix it, thanks.


Quote
You may not win by decking out your opponent. If a player decks out, it does not count as a win for either player, and the duel continues. (If this happens, both players may change their decks)
What is the reasoning behind this rule?

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Re: There Can Only Be One - Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24168.msg350568#msg350568
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2011, 04:23:43 pm »
5. BATTLE
The amount of battles will be based on the total # of upgraded cards between the two players.
#Battles
2-9Best-of-3
10-29Best-of-5
30+Best-of-7
I found this new rule.

I like the concept, but I think it would make more sense like this:

#Battles
2-15Best-of-3
16-31Best-of-5
32Best-of-7
In other words..

#Battles
32-17 players left standing (>50%)Best-of-3
16-3 players left standing (<50%)Best-of-5
2 players left standingBest-of-7
This way numbers would have a meaning and wouldn't be "random". We would also have the epic final battle thing.
Your two tables aren't the same. One is based on power, the other is based on players left. Going by your first one: only 1-2 battle would be best-of-5. The second one could cause problems in the frenzy at the beginning of the event. (The numbers weren't random btw)

When this tourney is run again, I'd like to increase the amount of participants to 50-60, then the final battles would be between players with ~30 power. As it stands right now, there are 3 players left with 6, 13, & 13 power.

Quote
Quote
You may not win by decking out your opponent. If a player decks out, it does not count as a win for either player, and the duel continues. (If this happens, both players may change their decks)
What is the reasoning behind this rule?
Because you need to 'kill' your opponent, as in, drop their HP to zero. With this rule you would need to actively attack your opponent instead of just targeting his creatures and waiting for him to run out of cards.

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Re: There Can Only Be One - Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24168.msg350666#msg350666
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2011, 07:30:24 pm »
Your two tables aren't the same. One is based on power, the other is based on players left. Going by your first one: only 1-2 battle would be best-of-5. The second one could cause problems in the frenzy at the beginning of the event. (The numbers weren't random btw)

When this tourney is run again, I'd like to increase the amount of participants to 50-60, then the final battles would be between players with ~30 power. As it stands right now, there are 3 players left with 6, 13, & 13 power.
Yeah, I got totally mixed up when doing those tables, so the latter makes no sense. What I meant was that the system would be that when half the players are gone (on average), battles become best-of-5. Other option is to raise the duel number when 75% are gone.

Here's what the numbers would look if matches were done in tournament style:

1st Round: 32 players, each with a power of 1
2nd Round: 16 players, each with a power of 2
3rd Round: 8 players, each with a power of 4
4th Round: 4 players, each with a power of 8
5th Round: 2 players, each with a power of 16

So if we changed the number of duels for imaginary round 3, that would give us this kind of table:

#Battles
2-7Best-of-3
8-31Best-of-5
32Best-of-7
 

Which would mean this:

24 best-of-3 matches
6 best-of-5 matches
1 best-of-7 match

All those numbers are of course what would happen on average. It's probably not the perfect solution, but I like rules that are based on math. Is there a similar system on which the current numbers are based on, or are they just what "feels" right?


The number of participants is an interesting dilemma. Problem with going as high as 60 is that the more players there are, the less useful it is to gain more power.

Lets say only us two are left. You have 15 power and I have 45. My issue would be that I have more power than I need. Although gathering more power means that you have less, it's still not as useful as going from power 29 to 30 because I am wasting upped cards.

Something between 40 and 50 would probably be optimal.

One option would be to implement something like what I talked about earlier, the "special card" thing. Maybe we could give some players "special cards" that only they can use, and others "power" which translates to upped cards. You could then challenge other players based on whether you want upped cards or a specific "special card".

Or we could give players both.

Quote
Quote
You may not win by decking out your opponent. If a player decks out, it does not count as a win for either player, and the duel continues. (If this happens, both players may change their decks)
What is the reasoning behind this rule?
Because you need to 'kill' your opponent, as in, drop their HP to zero. With this rule you would need to actively attack your opponent instead of just targeting his creatures and waiting for him to run out of cards.
I dislike that rule. Beating a player who has upped cards advantage is hard enough as it is, and having a rule that prevents the building of deck-out decks, makes it even worse.

If unique deckbuilding rules were introduced, I think they should change the way players build their decks or choose their strategy, not simply ban certain types of decks. The latter doesn't really give us new interesting options, it only dramatically limits our current ones.

Offline majofa

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Re: There Can Only Be One - Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24168.msg350685#msg350685
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2011, 07:46:33 pm »
Quote
One option would be to implement something like what I talked about earlier, the "special card" thing. Maybe we could give some players "special cards" that only they can use, and others "power" which translates to upped cards. You could then challenge other players based on whether you want upped cards or a specific "special card".
TStar and I discussed this for a bit, but I decided not to implement it. When the event started there was a mad frenzy of games being played (10+ people gone within a couple hours)... If you gave people specific cards then that would severly cripple those that couldn't be on when the event started.

Quote
I dislike that rule. Beating a player who has upped cards advantage is hard enough as it is, and having a rule that prevents the building of deck-out decks, makes it even worse.

If unique deckbuilding rules were introduced, I think they should change the way players build their decks or choose their strategy, not simply ban certain types of decks. The latter doesn't really give us new interesting options, it only dramatically limits our current ones.
I can't agree with you here. This event is about 'killing' your opponent. Imagine two people fighting and one just deflecting blows from the other one..... does he hope his opponent dies from exhaustion? No. He has to finish his opponent off with attacks. I think this rules fits in well with the style of event.

Also, some have complained about that this was just gonna be a copy/paste tourney... but in looking through the decks, there were rarely any duplicate decks, especially once people started getting more upped cards.

Offline TStar

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Re: There Can Only Be One - Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24168.msg350704#msg350704
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2011, 08:09:18 pm »
I think the disadvantage of people not being online when the event starts is real.  Some players were able to pull in 5 or more victories before others even woke up in their country.  Not to mention an entire event pretty much ending in under a week is very far from ideal.  One possibility is to limit the number of matches players can have in a certain time period (one per 24 hours for example, or at least 6 hours between battles, etc) and call that cooldown period their recovery time.  Some players were upset that they had no time whatsoever between matches to try and build new decks or even catch their breath.

As for the copy/paste tournament issue, you already admitted as much in your statement.  In the beginning it was very cookie cutter because decks with just 1-2 upped cards are not really different from unupped League decks.  As players get more upped cards they get more options, and there are fewer players left so the chances of decks being repeated or very similar dramatically declines with the shrinking sample size.  The real concern is exactly as stated previously in that many of the stronger unupped decks are used in Leagues where there are very real prizes at stake and players will not use them to win an event when they would be required to post them publically as a result.  What ends up happening is that you get a bunch of copy/paste barely modded decks from the PvP Decks thread and a lot of subpar second-rate decks from players unwilling to reveal the secrets to everyone.  It's a system currently set up to discourage creativity in deckbuilding and discourage competitive League players from playing their best options.  I don't think that's really a positive consequence of the current rules.

To sum up, the event seemed to be too quick and too simple.  There was no challenge to players for deckbuilding, and plenty of discouragement from some players using their strongest competitive decks.  I saw very little about this event that separated it from a standard Champion's League match aside from an upped card limit and required deck posting.  The event turned out to lack enough depth, scope, and uniqueness to set it apart in my opinion and make it challenging and exciting.
Carpe Diem!!

Offline majofa

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Re: There Can Only Be One - Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24168.msg350742#msg350742
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2011, 08:51:21 pm »
TStar, I believe you were the one who led the charge on the hate of this event... and yet you still signed up for it. Then you went ahead and played sub-par decks, didn't even post them, and used your loss as fuel to spread even more hate for the event. Even starting the Feedback thread so you could say how bad it was.

I just went through the first 3 pages of the Battle Thread..... 31 different decks (not including mods).
The only decks that were used a lot were Scramble Shrieker (10 times) lulz, Devtal (6 times/3 players), and Grabow (5 times/all different). I hardly think there was a lack of variety.... you just have to look at it with an open mind.


Although I do agree with the cooldown period for a player after they finish a match (:: give them time to absorb their power). We'll have to address how long that time should be.

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Re: There Can Only Be One - Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24168.msg351081#msg351081
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2011, 12:47:50 pm »
Quote
One option would be to implement something like what I talked about earlier, the "special card" thing. Maybe we could give some players "special cards" that only they can use, and others "power" which translates to upped cards. You could then challenge other players based on whether you want upped cards or a specific "special card".
TStar and I discussed this for a bit, but I decided not to implement it. When the event started there was a mad frenzy of games being played (10+ people gone within a couple hours)... If you gave people specific cards then that would severly cripple those that couldn't be on when the event started.
All it needs is a 24-hour cooldown after a win before you can fight again. I actually had that rule at first, but changed it because I underestimated the speed at which players manage to fight battles, and I thought it would be a good idea to let players fight multiple battles one after another. Clearly it wasn't, because it led to event ending way too soon.

Quote
I dislike that rule. Beating a player who has upped cards advantage is hard enough as it is, and having a rule that prevents the building of deck-out decks, makes it even worse.

If unique deckbuilding rules were introduced, I think they should change the way players build their decks or choose their strategy, not simply ban certain types of decks. The latter doesn't really give us new interesting options, it only dramatically limits our current ones.
I can't agree with you here. This event is about 'killing' your opponent. Imagine two people fighting and one just deflecting blows from the other one..... does he hope his opponent dies from exhaustion? No. He has to finish his opponent off with attacks. I think this rules fits in well with the style of event.
In many CCG's, Elements included, when you deck out, you lose. You don't really get "killed" by direct HP damage, but you are defeated, which is the same thing. I find it weird that something that results in a win in the game itself and all other events, suddenly is a rematch in this event.

Also the problem with rules like removing deck-out strategy is that it doesn't really make deckbuilding any more interesting, it just limits players' strategy options. It's the "wrong" way of making changes to deckbuilding imo. It's kind of like having deckbuilding rules that ban all Pendulums. It's not really a clever way of making players think new possibilities and strategies, it just transports us back in time when Pendulums were not in the game.

If there is a rule that deck-outs result in a rematch, it should be paired up with some other rules to make it interesting. Example of this would be an event that had two rules:

1. Deckout results in a rematch
2. If winner has more than 3 cards in his or her deck at the time of the win, there will be a rematch.

Not the most awesome event idea ever, but it's an example of how things could be made more interesting, because now players would have to come up with ways to keep themselves and their opponent alive long enough before they make that finishing blow.

As a stand-alone rule in this particular event, deckout=rematch rule just doesn't work very well.

There are probably many opinions about this, but I'd like to keep it simple and avoid "random" rules that are not part of the core idea of the event, which is the power thing and stealing power from others.

 

blarg: