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Offline teffyTopic starter

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Facts about chances to win a rare in the special spins https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41498.msg514289#msg514289
« on: June 23, 2012, 07:42:14 pm »
Hello. I´m proud to present you some ways how to find out, what the chances are, to win a rare card in special spins. I also show some additional info (more added later). I used several ways to calculate that, a computer simulation, and I also tried a pure mathematical way. I present you 3 estimations, but first: How are special spin coded ? Xenocidius explained it this way:

Spoiler for Xenocidius´ explanation:
I am not sure if this was asked already but my question is, How are cards picked for the bonus spin? Is it just like regular spins where it picks X amount of cards or is it from all the rares in-game except of cource nymphs/marks. Also from which pool are the cards picked  for the slot change (Where you can change a slot up to 3 times).
Exact same as the regular spins; 4 random rare cards (note that some may be the same). When you respin it picks from those same cards.
Spoiler for all the things some players don´t want to read:

The computer model:
You needn´t really model, the drawing of 4 cards out of 27 rares. You make 3 arrays (vectors) with 4 entries each - the 3 slots - and randomly choose natural numbers between 0 and 3. To regard the fact, that some of the chosen 4 cards can be pairs, you calculate chances of that, and regard that in your model, using another random number.
Spoiler for why no systematical testing:
It´s much easier than trying all combinations; when 4 different cards are chosen, we "only" have 4^12= 16777216, but when we have a pair, we would have to change the algorithm, not all ways would have the same probability.
Using random numbers, we need a few simple if - conditions, e.g. when we would get a pair, we simply rename all "rare 3´s" slots into "rare 0´s". Means 0 is chosen with 50% probability.

Here is a table, using combinatorics for the 4 chosen rares.
Spoiler for hidden Table 1:
      chance
cumulative
4 different rares:0,792562109
0,792562109
one pair:
0,198140527
0,990702637
two pairs:0,003962811
0,994665447
three of a kind:
0,005283747
0,999949195
four of a kind5,08053E-05
1


First (weakest) Estimation (Computer based, Java Program)
Spoiler for Hidden:
First, we simulate X games, and count, how many rares are in all 3 slots. These are the rares, which are theoretical winnable. Here´s a table for 10.000.000 games. A direct win counts as one available rare.
Spoiler for table:
0 rares winnable12,7%
1 rare winnable52,0%
2 rares winnable30,8%
3 rares winnable4,4%
4 rares winnable~0,06%

This shows an interesting fact: The player can often not choose, which rare he´ll win, because in 64% of all games, he can has max one choice. However he can try to choose a strategy to maximize the chance to get one. This table also gives us some (weak) estimations of win chances.

Upper border: The player can win in max 87,3 % of all games simply because in 12,7 % of all games, there´s no rare card to win. This estimation is independent of the players strategy.
Lower border: Imagine, the player gets shown all 4 rares, and he randomly picks one of them. Then he wins  ~ 12,7%*0+ 52,0%*0,25+ 30,8%*0,5+ 3,3%*0,75+ (8,36%+0,06%)*1 ~ 33,8% of all games.
Summary 1:
33,8% < win chance < 87,3 %

But we can do better:

Second better Estimation (Mathematical way)
Spoiler for Hidden:
Now, we include a spin strategy of players, but we also simplify a bit. We say that always 4 different rares are chosen. Then, the calculated probabilty is a bit lower than the real one.
We use the following strategy of the user:

A pair: Spin the remaining card as much as possible and if it doesn´t match with the others,spin the other 2 slots again.
Three different cards: Different strategies are possible. I used the following one: Spin slot 1, until you get a pair, then spin the other one, till you get the card or til you can´t spin the slot anymore. If you don´t win, spin the other 2 again as often as possible/needed.

We get:
Spoiler for Hidden:
chance
win rate
3 of a kind0,0625
1
one pair0,5625
0,719127655
3 different slots
0,375
0,574455261


A chance estimation of the winchance is the scalarproduct of the two columns, which is ~68,24%. When we also consider the fact, that we can have pairs in our 4 chosen cards, then we get another border (using Table 1): 74,8%.
Summary 2:
The chance to win a rare is between 68,2% and 74,8%, when you choose the described strategy for 3 different cards in the initial spin.


It´s interesting, that OldTrees got a similar result using a different strategy, when you find no pairs in your initial spin (assuming 4 different cards are chosen). His estimation is quite much hidden, not many players have ever seen it, or understood, what it means.
OldTrees gets 69,84% and would get 76,1% for an upper border. Means OldTrees´ strategy seems to be a bit better.  However, we don´t know what happens, when there are pairs in the 4 chosen cards. Here´s his estimation:

Spoiler for OldTrees´ calculation:
interesting parts in yellow, my annotations in white
Update:

The correct strategy
For no pairs spin the slot with the most spins remainingFor 1 pair spin the unpaired slotWhen a slot is locked spin the other slots to match it
This strategy has been tested for any number of rares from 3 to 40

If anyone can provide means of converting a table of X and Y values into a polynomial that would help.

Currently I have only seen evidence of 4 rares in the spins so the probability
Starting with
AAA: 1       
AAB: 0.719127655                                         (I get the same number, in my program, and Table 2)
ABC: 0.617195129                                         (0,574455261 for my strategy)

Since the chance of starting with                    Also see Table 2
AAA is (1/r2) or 1/16 if r=4
AAB is (3)(r-1)(1/r2) or 9/16 if r=4
ABC is (r-1)(r-2)(1/r2) or 6/16 if r=4

For a total chance (assuming R is 4) of
0.698457479

(if R is dependant on the number of rares in the game and not a constant then it will get rare fast.)
Total chance if R is 20
0.072648547

Third (best) Estimation (Computer based, Java Program)
The last logical step is to use the chances of Table 1 to really simulate games and also consider the fact that some of the 4 chosen cards may be the same card.
 I also did 10.000.000 tests

I got 72,5 %, which is within the borders of part 2.

TL;DR:


33,8% < 68,2%  <= chance to win sth with teffy´s strategy ~ 72,5 % < 74,8% < 87,3%

69,84% < win chance with OldTrees´ strategy < 76,1%

Note:
69,84% > 68,2%
but
76,1% > 74,8%

Have fun, trying simulations on your own.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 07:56:55 pm by teffy »
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Offline teffyTopic starter

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Facts about chances to win a rare in the special spins https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41498.msg514290#msg514290
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2012, 07:42:31 pm »
 Some other interesting tables may soon follow.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 07:57:06 pm by teffy »
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Offline teffyTopic starter

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Facts about chances to win a rare in the special spins https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41498.msg514293#msg514293
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2012, 07:43:23 pm »
and more room for additional content
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 07:57:15 pm by teffy »
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Offline teffyTopic starter

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Facts about chances to win a rare in the special spins https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41498.msg514300#msg514300
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2012, 08:00:28 pm »
another post, because I know, what could soon be written in my other posts.
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Facts about chances to win a rare in the special spins https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41498.msg514373#msg514373
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2012, 11:32:48 pm »
Following.

Note: My estimation was done by hand using algebra calculating the return of multiple branches of strategies (eliminating inferior strategies). There might have been a typo somewhere. It assumed no duplicates in the set of 4. I am glad the size [4] was confirmed.

Excel derived win chance when 4 different rares are in the spin
Spoiler for Hidden:
A0A0B11/4*Win + 3/4*Fail0.25
A0A0B21/4*Win + 3/4*A0A0B10.4375
A0A0B31/4*Win + 3/4*A0A0B20.578125
A0B1C11/4*A0A0B1+3/4*Fail0.0625
A0B1C21/4*A0A0B2+3/4*Fail0.109375
1/4*A0A0B1+3/4*A0B1C10.109375
A0B1C31/4*A0A0B3+3/4*Fail0.14453125
1/4*A0A0B1+3/4*A0B1C20.14453125
A0B2C21/4*A0A0B2+3/4*A0B1C20.19140625
A0B2C31/4*A0A0B2+3/4*A0B2C20.252929688
1/4*A0A0B3+3/4*A0B1C30.252929688
A0B3C31/4*A0A0B3+3/4*A0B2C30.334228516
A1A1B11/4*Win+3/4*A0B1C10.296875
A2A1B11/4*Win+3/4*A0B1C20.33203125
A2A2B11/4*Win+3/4*A0B2C20.393554688
A3A1B11/4*Win+3/4*A0B1C30.358398438
A3A2B11/4*Win+3/4*A0B2C30.439697266
A3A3B11/4*Win+3/4*A0B3C30.500671387
A1A1B21/4*Win+3/4*A1A1B10.47265625
A2A1B21/4*Win+3/4*A2A1B10.499023438
A2A2B21/4*Win+3/4*A2A2B10.545166016
A3A1B21/4*Win+3/4*A3A1B10.518798828
A3A2B21/4*Win+3/4*A3A2B10.579772949
A3A3B21/4*Win+3/4*A3A3B10.62550354
A1A1B31/4*Win+3/4*A1A1B20.72265625
A2A1B31/4*Win+3/4*A2A1B20.749023438
A2A2B31/4*Win+3/4*A2A2B20.795166016
A3A1B31/4*Win+3/4*A3A1B20.768798828
A3A2B31/4*Win+3/4*A3A2B20.829772949
A3A3B31/4*Win+3/4*A3A3B20.87550354
A1B1C12/4*A0A0B1+2/4*A0B1C10.15625
A2B1C12/4*A1A1B1+2/4*A1B1C10.2265625
1/4*A0A0B1+1/4*A0A0B2+2/4*A0B1C20.2265625
A3B1C12/4*A2A1B1+2/4*A2B1C10.279296875
1/4*A0A0B1+1/4*A0A0B3+2/4*A0B1C30.279296875
A2B2C12/4*A0A0B2+2/4*A0B2C20.314453125
1/4*A2A1B1+1/4*A1A1B2+2/4*A2B1C10.314453125
A3B2C11/4*A3A1B1+1/4*A1A1B3+2/4*A3B1C10.409912109
1/4*A2A2B1+1/4*A2A1B2+2/4*A2B2C10.380371094
1/4*A0A0B3+1/4*A0A0B2+2/4*A0B2C30.380371094
A2B2C22/4*A2A1B2+2/4*A2B2C10.406738281
A3B2C21/4*A3A1B2+1/4*A2A1B3+2/4*A3B2C10.521911621
2/4*A2A2B2+2/4*A2B2C20.475952148
A3B3C11/4*A3A2B1+1/4*A2A1B3+2/4*A3B2C10.50213623
2/4*A0A0B3+2/4*A0B3C30.456176758
A3B3C22/4*A3A1B3+2/4*A3B3C10.635467529
1/4*A3A2B2+1/4*A2A2B3+2/4*A3B2C20.604690552
A3B3C32/4*A3A3B2+2/4*A3B3C20.630485535
I redid my calculations and I think I was wrong.
New strategy: If 4 different rares, then
don't break pairs,
when A3B2C1 spin B,
when A3B2C2 spin B or C,
when A3B3C1 spin A or B,
and when A3B3C2 spin C.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 05:33:44 am by OldTrees »
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Offline fsk

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Re: Facts about chances to win a rare in the special spins https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41498.msg517071#msg517071
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2012, 06:14:50 pm »
That isn't the strategy I use for the Arena spin.  I already have 6x of all the old rares, and only need the new shards.

If I spin 2 eternities and a shard of focus, I'll respin the two eternities trying to get the shard.

 

anything
blarg: