Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)

[petersenk]

Why are you guys even complaining about rainbows (okok rainbow-denial is really evil)? Every second deck is a friggin fire/earth rush (thanks god there are SOGs).

Stupid fire golem's.  :|

[Rastafla]

Well i keep EMing rainbows in gold with my monogravity (3 nymphs) so just you all keep on using them.

[Rubik87]

I disagree with "rainbows are effective", and I disagree with banning supernovas and QTs.

I agree with the point made by someone else in another thread that people submit rainbows because that's what they have upgraded.

Of course it's hard to make a good deck if the oracle gives you a 'brick' (actually 5 bricks), so maybe then a rainbow could be the less worse.

I have no idea why people would consider SoGs to be annoying, it's really just 5 healing, can't you outdamage that? or simply pulv them away?

If there is a card that perhaps we should consider restricting maybe it is explosion. That's the card i'm looking to put in the deck i submit if i can.

[jmizzle7]

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[Manipul8r]

I disagree with "rainbows are effective", and I disagree with banning supernovas and QTs.

I agree with the point made by someone else in another thread that people submit rainbows because that's what they have upgraded.

Of course it's hard to make a good deck if the oracle gives you a 'brick' (actually 5 bricks), so maybe then a rainbow could be the less worse.

I have no idea why people would consider SoGs to be annoying, it's really just 5 healing, can't you outdamage that? or simply pulv them away?

If there is a card that perhaps we should consider restricting maybe it is explosion. That's the card i'm looking to put in the deck i submit if i can.

I agree with you for the most part, especially when you can have 12 explosions.  However, the problem (in my opinion) with SoG is not the simple 5 healing per turn, but the fact you can have 12 of them + other healing cards like Sanctuary and on top of that CC/PC like Antimatter/Deflag.  This shuts down most strategies except maybe quinted growth, but you can use a protected Thorn Carapace to stop that.  I still don't believe SoG should be banned, but I feel this represents a problem with game balance, but that's done elsewhere.

@Rastafla, not everyone has Gravity Nymphs.   

[Marvaddin]

Voted NO.  Why you ask, and you did say to explain.  EVERYTHING IS JUST FINE THE WAY IT IS.  If you haven't noticed by your previous polls, majority of people do not want any change at all.  So quit QQ'ing about the way the arena is and suck it up and play the way it is.

This IS NOT supposed to be super easy so everyone can make 50k electrum a day.  Give it up already, majority rules, and that means no change.  I request a topic lock please, because you cannot fix what is not broken.

This said when the poll had like, hmmm, 60 votes?

60 healing?  3 flying adrenalined staffs anyone?  60 healing is no big deal, especially since i have never played against an arena deck that has been able to get all 12 out.  We have weekly tournaments with more than enough restrictions to satisfy all your banning needs.  No restrictions = fun for all, and I mean this too, because there are 2000+ decks in all 4 arena categories that you can play against, yet we don't have anything close to that number in votes.  so the elements forum community should not dictate how all the non forum people should play the game.  I'm sure quite a few would join the forum after such a drastic change wondering why they can't play with certain cards any more.  There is just not enough people involved in the voting to make this kind of change happen ever.  It's around 110 people voting each time, so 110/2000 is not enough and until there is at least 50% of the people playing elements involved, any change should not happen.  It would not be fair to those that do not use the forum.

And this said when poll had, according to him, 110 votes. Tsc, tsc, tsc. And still feels confortable to say to others "read the thread before posting". Some people just dont know what themselves posted, huh? Or maybe ignore ethics to reach their goal.

Ps: Im not saying zanz will follow the poll, we know he rules, not the majority.

-edit-
ferox, firequeen, both use feral bonds, and both can get a full field of creatures.  both have 12 feral bonds, and with 23 creatures in play that is a crap load of healing (276 hp/turn), so why havent these fgs been nerfed?  thats too much healing, boohoo, no, just no.  sogs are fine.

Yeah, some FGs have healing, but they dont have all possible strategies to shut down the opponent deck together with it. Massive healing, + massive CC, + massive PC, + quanta denial, etc. How about if we allow SoGs and ban black hole, explosion, steals and pulvy, them? We could allow massive healing at cost of other strategies, like the idea? These FGs dont need nerfing, some of the rainbows in arena could use a nerf. Sorry, your argument is invalid.

The only problem I see with majofa's idea:

Example:
The oracle shows you a Steam Machine.
Life, Time, and Gravity lightens up (random) on the wheel.

So this way you are forced to make a Steam deck, possibly with a multiplied fire mark, and besides that you have 3 other elements that you use; and they may have close to no good use to you at all.

Of course, with the example above, you sure will make one creative deck, but most often than not your deck will drop out quickly from the league in subject; because others got lucky, and maybe spun some natural synergies that day.

Besides this it's a nice idea, though I doubt the Oracle is programmed to make any coherency between the things he would show.

Remember, you can always let your deck from yesterday in play if things go bad (supposing its not eliminated). Also, deck building will be harder for everyone.

Hmmmm... maybe deck building could allow towers and pendulum from any elements.

I disagree with "rainbows are effective", and I disagree with banning supernovas and QTs.

I agree with the point made by someone else in another thread that people submit rainbows because that's what they have upgraded.

Of course it's hard to make a good deck if the oracle gives you a 'brick' (actually 5 bricks), so maybe then a rainbow could be the less worse.

I have no idea why people would consider SoGs to be annoying, it's really just 5 healing, can't you outdamage that? or simply pulv them away?

If there is a card that perhaps we should consider restricting maybe it is explosion. That's the card i'm looking to put in the deck i submit if i can.

Rainbows ARE effective vs most decks. You usually need a counter deck to win vs them, if they have FGs advantages. If its what people have upgraded, possibly true, but they are platinum, and could have other cards, too. Even a partially unupped deck can be dangerous with FGs advantages. My duo deck is #5 of platinum right now and have 8 unupped cards out of 36 of the base deck.

5 healing, heh? Lol, 1 SoG. And 10 of it? Pulvy is good, you can destroy Ferox Bonds for example, but most rainbows have heavy PC. You need draw the pulvy, a PA, and still accumulate quanta to play them and use the skill, which is not simple with EQs and BHs around, too. Even if you do, you need outdamage it while not being outdamaged, and this is also difficult, because you dont have double draw by default and will probably fail to get your Hourglass running (how many PAs a deck usually has?). And... not all decks use earth and gravity for Pulvy work.

Explosion is also a nasty card, but its a normal card, so I would prefer ban SoGs. In fact, FGs dont use shards. I always thought about them as cards that help player to win vs the AI cheats. I still think they shouldnt be a plus to already extremelly hard opponents (although, some people with 3 Gravity Nymphs can think they are easy ).

[Asinickle]

I am voting for the Oracle limiting the number of elements you can use, as I think that added diversity to the decks would be more fun.
But then the issue comes of how many elements should be allowed for each card given by the oracle. Some require you to use an element that isn't the same as the card (werewolf and the sort), so the list of elements you can use would need to be custom made for every card if it was a strict elemental limit.
I'm thinking you should be able to choose 3 elements you can use, and then be able to use more by adding skill points into a skill, same as double marks and upgraded cards.
Also, by limiting the number of elements you can use, quantum towers and supernovas won't be an issue, and if they really want to use the skill to get a full rainbow, then the loss of other skills will balance it out.

For the SoGs- if it wouldn't take too much coding I'd like to see a limit of having 6 of them on the same side of the field. This would be just fine unless you are using a double draw deck (so only everyone in the arena), in which case you would either have to reduce the number of SoGs in your deck, thus reducing the likelihood of you drawing them, or have your hand get clogged with cards you can't play.

[whitevo]

umm i got idea, let oracle choose you 3 different card?
this way you will get 15 unmoveable cards.

Yeah you'd be able to get real creative with nearly half of your deck already determined by the oracle and likely most of the rest being taken up by pillars/towers

Woot i got support (my ego raized about 5%)

Seriously though, if there are too many rainbows out there, just play anti-rainbow decks or even post strong anti-rainbow decks on the forums so more people start using them against arena.  Rainbow decks will lose more and either people will switch or their decks will get pushed out quickly by the ones that do.

Arena Rainbow decks doesnt rly bother me that much either, sometimes i get right cards in my hand to just overcontrol them and i win, sometimes not. I gave idea out to support the ppl who doesnt like rainbow decks, but arena doesnt rly need any change, i LoWe it the way it is. I just hope more ppl would play arena and if some restrictions would help geting more ppl späm arena im happy to support good ideas.

[ralouf]

I dunno where every one seen all those SoG ? For my part, for plat league I usually lost vs 200 hp *3mark double draw rushy deck which put 5 LD in the 3 first turn or 7 big critters while playing BH and using PC. But that is the game yeah.

I rarely met big rainbow and I'm proud of the creativity and the variety of the deck which leave in the arena (Always in plat league).

Where I see SoG every where it is in silver league. Wow those player are so proud of owning fews SoG that they put them every where.. The result ? their decks suxx. They just looks like a rushy deck but after playing 2/3 creature they stop their attack and play SoG. and loose most of the time.

For me arena is fine as it is. If we implement some restriction it can be good though and make the deckbuilding harder.

[Terrilocks]

I'm pleased to hear Plat players are being more creative in their decks and not spamming SoG (as I would hope from those who obviously have been playing the game a long time), however Gold and Silver seem to be littered with them.

It's not that I mind using them AGAINST arena (in the same way they're vital against false gods), but the opposite is simply too much; a theoretical +60hp per turn on top of 200hp and draw/mark bonuses is just too much of an advantage.

My main problem with it is that it actually stifles creativity in vs arena decks as you always need to pack some heavy permanent control to stand a chance... which basically limits you to Entropy (Butterfly Effect) and Earth/Gravity (Pulverizer). I disregard Explosions as they can't really cope with SoG on top of the other shields, weapons, Bonds, Mindgates etc. they will probably throw at you.

That then severely limits your element choices: of all monos, only entropy has a chance and of all duos, you have to either mix something with entropy or go earth/gravity. So people inevitably choose rainbow.

Now the other problem is that SoG cost 3 random quanta. I'll say now I think Sancturies are much better balanced as they at least require 3 quanta from a specific element. This isn't so with SoG and people pretty much throw them in with any deck. This then means that whereas certain deck matchups might have been interesting and balanced (exploiting each others weaknesses etc.), the deck with SoG now always has a clear advantage... unless you have the heavy permanent control I mentioned earlier in which case you're probably using a rainbow.

Knowing this, many decks now also pack black holes as rainbows are really the only viable choice against a reasonable deck. There's not really much you can do about this though as you might try to counter by using a light deck (or combo) and then get screwed by your lack of permanent control againsst all those shards... (perhaps except entropy/light )

But yea, I personally refuse to use SoG in my arena decks as I feel they're nothing more than a cheap trick. Consequently my win rate hasn't been the best (still managed rank 34 in gold with mono entropy) but I'd like to think at least my matches were much more interesting for the opponeent.

Btw, I'm fine with quantum towers and supernova in the arena, but SoG are just too easy to add to any deck, and basically render the specific healing capabilities of certain elements (Life/Light/Earth/Darkness etc.) obsolete.

TL;DR Summary
SoG in Arena decks are overpowered. (they already have enough draw and life advantages etc...)
SoG in decks used to fight arena decks are fine. (we need them to survive False gods and False-god-like deck advantages, )
SoG in Arena decks require massive PC to remove effectively limiting you to entropy, earth/gravity or rainbow.
Unlike Sanctuaries, SoG are not linked to a specific element and so can literally be thrown in with anything.
All this combined massively reduces the viability of all but a few deck combinations versus Arean decks.
I have no problem with quantum towers and supernova in arena decks.

[petersenk]

It's not that certain cards such as SoG's, explosion, earthquake or whatever are overpowered _in Arena_. That's bullcrap. Open your eyes. Clearly, the AI has been simply granted too much bonuses. Quadrupple-draw, tripple-deck, double-health, and the list goes on... this way of "enhancing" the AI is simply a dead-end, for it leads to frustrating games/matches that are no fun whatsoever. There is simply no fair challange anymore. Where is the fun in that? And then, as mentioned by others, you're bound to use certain decks, or you won't survive more than 2 turns anyway... hahaha

The arena, as is, is completly broken. The cards are fine.

[bucky1andonly]

You're all wrong.  I was stomping the crap out of both gold and platinum with this deck.

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5fc 5fc 5fc 5fc 6rl 6rl 77e 77e 77e 77e 77e 77e 77g 77g 77g 77g 7dp 7dp 7dp 7dp 7dp 7dp 7dq 7dq 7dq 7dq 7dq 7dq 7f2 7f2Not only was I winning more than losing, but I was winning a lot of bonus spins in the process.  One 12 game winning streak yielded 4 rares.
Also, the deck is fast, obviously, being a destroyer rush.

Sogs do not heal enough.
Heavy CC beats this, but that is still roughly 50%
PC is great to come across, as there are only 2 pends and 2 gavels.
Games are fast, win or lose, and that is the best way to go, no need for long drawn out games just to end up losing.
If you don't have these cards, I dunno what to tell you.

It works, it wins, and OBVIOUSLY there are some decks that will counter it easily, but I'd rather win a lot and fast than use slow ass ccyb or some other slow stall deck.