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Offline majofaTopic starter

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Sideboard #3 - Suggestions and Feedback. http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=38928.msg483795#msg483795
« on: April 19, 2012, 08:59:50 PM »
Please post feedback and suggestions. Thank you.

Offline RootRanger

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Re: Sideboard #3 - Suggestions and Feedback. http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=38928.msg489521#msg489521
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2012, 02:27:53 PM »
I think we should go back to Double Elimination next time.

No matter how good someones deck and sideboard are, there's going to be something that clearly beats it. And it should be like that, otherwise some things would be OP. But my problem is that with the current format, someone with an excellent deck only needs one matchup against one of their counters before they are eliminated. With double elimination, I believe that there would be more skill in the event because it takes two unfavorable matchups to be eliminated instead of one.

Last sideboard, many people did not play their matches, especially in the loser's bracket. But if you think that a small chance at winning will hold people back from getting their matches done, just look at how many people played their matches in the group stage when they had already been mathematically eliminated. Double elimination might even encourage activity even more than the current format, as well as making the even more fair and skillful.

World Cup was fun to try, but I do not feel that it is the ideal system. Not for this event, at least.
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Offline hainkarga

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Re: Sideboard #3 - Suggestions and Feedback. http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=38928.msg493887#msg493887
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2012, 08:38:04 PM »
@RootRanger
I do not know if world cup is ideal or not but i guess it turned out to be just the opposite of what you predicted. Multiple people went up to knockout rounds even after losing twice. Double elimination would give only two chances. And compared to previous event, everyone without exception finished all their matches and the event was only 1-2 days longer than was set to last.
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Re: Sideboard #3 - Suggestions and Feedback. http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=38928.msg493910#msg493910
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2012, 09:25:33 PM »
@RootRanger
I do not know if world cup is ideal or not but i guess it turned out to be just the opposite of what you predicted. Multiple people went up to knockout rounds even after losing twice. Double elimination would give only two chances. And compared to previous event, everyone without exception finished all their matches and the event was only 1-2 days longer than was set to last.
There were 6 people that were eliminated even though they only lost 1 match.
There were 2 people that were eliminated after losing their 3rd match.

I don't see how this is fair.

And also, with Double Elimination, more people would get their matches done, btw. They'll never be mathematically eliminated until their final loss.
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Offline hainkarga

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Re: Sideboard #3 - Suggestions and Feedback. http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=38928.msg493920#msg493920
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2012, 09:43:18 PM »
I'm sorry if there is some calculation i don't know about but i see all the eliminated players with either 2 or 3 losses, none of them eliminated for losing only once. Two went up after losing 2 matches and were eliminated after 3rd loss.

Who are the 6 people who got eliminated for losing only once ?
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Re: Sideboard #3 - Suggestions and Feedback. http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=38928.msg493936#msg493936
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2012, 09:59:18 PM »
I'm sorry if there is some calculation i don't know about but i see all the eliminated players with either 2 or 3 losses, none of them eliminated for losing only once. Two went up after losing 2 matches and were eliminated after 3rd loss.

Who are the 6 people who got eliminated for losing only once ?
I really shouldn't need three posts to explain this.
Alright, go here.
Yeah? Notice how 7 people are 3-0? Mhm, well, 6 of them are eliminated with just one loss in the world cup stage.
With double elimination, it would take two losses to be eliminated.
If you still don't get it by now, I guess you could just re-read my posts. I don't know what else to say here.
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Offline hainkarga

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Re: Sideboard #3 - Suggestions and Feedback. http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=38928.msg494312#msg494312
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2012, 05:07:10 PM »
Huh no need to get cranky, peace. But i thought you were comparing the system as a whole vs double elimination. Instead you rip apart and seperate the 2nd stage of the event and compare only that against double elimination. That is a bit messed up way of thinking. While 6 people got eliminated on their first match, 26 other people had multiple chances and each player had 3 chances to get up to knockouts.  So it is like people had multiple chances to prove their decks strength to rise to do 4 more matches. I gather your problem is getting eliminated in those final 4 matches.

In double elimination your deck might be one of the strongest yet meet a counter on the first match, which means you have to win like 9 more matches to rise up to the final which increases the chances that you will meet another counter tremendously. Meanwhile a worse yet luckily matched deck could go much further than you on the winners bracket easily.  A terrible deck could win 1-2 matches while your awesomesauce deck loses by accident on the first. Now you get to win at least what ? 3 more wins to catch up ? The rule of "No loser gets eliminated immediately" alone does not instantly make everything about double elim fair. Its fairness hugely depends on RNG.

Besides it gets frustrating for several people to do 10ish matches compared to like 7 in this system. Last tpvp was a headache. You are comparing apples with oranges by taking only some of the results into consideration.

At the end of the day:

* Double elim gives double chance to everyone, no more no less, while lasting 2-3 rounds longer. Early losers have to win more games.
* World cup gives 3 chance to everyone for knockout, then 0 chance at knockout while granting the winners extra upped cards + matchup with the relatively weaker (by means of upped card count and win count) opponents. Everyone does same amount of matches.

I'm not an expert, but i guess either could be good depending on the perspective. Personally i don't care much between both systems.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 05:18:17 PM by hainkarga »
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Re: Sideboard #3 - Suggestions and Feedback. http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=38928.msg494463#msg494463
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2012, 09:53:18 PM »
Huh no need to get cranky, peace. But i thought you were comparing the system as a whole vs double elimination. Instead you rip apart and seperate the 2nd stage of the event and compare only that against double elimination. That is a bit messed up way of thinking.
Could you quote where I appear to be comparing only the 2nd stage of the event? Be specific.

While 6 people got eliminated on their first match, 26 other people had multiple chances and each player had 3 chances to get up to knockouts.
"3 chances" would suggest that a player would reach knockouts after already losing twice, and winning on their third chance. This only happened once in the entire event.

So it is like people had multiple chances to prove their decks strength to rise to do 4 more matches.
Actually, only 2 people played 4 matches in the knockout round. 8 people played 1 match. A more reasonable statistic is 2, as that is close to the average of matches played per person in the knockout round.

I gather your problem is getting eliminated in those final 4 matches.
I've already stated my problem pretty clearly. Don't try to make this a personal issue just to make me look bad. Do you see my saying that you're only arguing against me because you won? Nope. And I would expect you to maintain the same level of conduct.

In double elimination your deck might be one of the strongest yet meet a counter on the first match, which means you have to win like 9 more matches to rise up to the final which increases the chances that you will meet another counter tremendously.
The chances of that one of the strongest decks will be eliminated in World Cup is larger than the chance that it will be eliminated in Double Elimination. This seems obvious, but I suppose I could write out the match behind this if I really have to.

Meanwhile a worse yet luckily matched deck could go much further than you on the winners bracket easily.  A terrible deck could win 1-2 matches while your awesomesauce deck loses by accident on the first. Now you get to win at least what ? 3 more wins to catch up ? The rule of "No loser gets eliminated immediately" alone does not instantly make everything about double elim fair. Its fairness hugely depends on RNG.
Again, the chances that a terrible deck could go further than a strong deck is larger with World Cup.

Besides it gets frustrating for several people to do 10ish matches compared to like 7 in this system. Last tpvp was a headache. You are comparing apples with oranges by taking only some of the results into consideration.
Ok, true, a maximum of 7 matches is easier to play than 10. However, the average amount of matches per person in double elimination is 4. The average amount of matches per person in World Cup is also 4. While someone could potentially have to play more matches in Double Elimination, the average player has to play just as much in World Cup as in Double Elimination.

* World cup gives 3 chance to everyone for knockout,
Well, not really. Someone could lose twice and miss knockout. This happened 7 times.

Everyone does same amount of matches.
Only in the group stage. Focus on the entire event, hain.


Hain, you've misunderstood my posts, misunderstood my argument, and misunderstood the event.
Honestly, do you really have the better argument? Or do you just want to believe you were right?
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Re: Sideboard #3 - Suggestions and Feedback. http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=38928.msg494479#msg494479
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2012, 10:22:16 PM »
wow. no, you are right.
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