*Author

Offline BloodshadowTopic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4030
  • Country: ca
  • Reputation Power: 46
  • Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.
  • 吞天纳地,魔渡众生。天下万物,唯我至尊。
  • Awards: Ultimate Profile WinnerOpposites Attract
No one can win any arguments, ever. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49005.msg1066635#msg1066635
« on: May 05, 2013, 01:57:33 am »
http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/

Reading the first few sentences of the article above is enough for you to know what I'm talking about. Basically, if our beliefs are challenged by contradictory evidence, they only get stronger, because we just really, really don't want to admit that we're wrong.

So stop trying to argue logically and fairly. If you absolutely must win an argument, use deception, coercion, blackmail, or other dirty tricks as needed. Otherwise, just don't even bother wasting your time and effort.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

Offline Absol

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2383
  • Country: id
  • Reputation Power: 35
  • Absol is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.Absol is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.Absol is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.Absol is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.Absol is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.Absol is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.Absol is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.
  • Consectetur Adipiscing Elit
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday Cake
Re: No one can win any arguments, ever. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49005.msg1066638#msg1066638
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2013, 02:06:04 am »
Okay.
"Neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum, quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit."
"There is no one who loves pain itself, who seeks after it and wants to have it, simply because it is pain."

Offline kimham8a

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 964
  • Country: ca
  • Reputation Power: 16
  • kimham8a is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.kimham8a is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.kimham8a is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.
  • God of this world
Re: No one can win any arguments, ever. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49005.msg1066642#msg1066642
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2013, 02:08:56 am »
Why do you have links to random advertisements BloodShadow?
Hey there

Offline RootRanger

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3118
  • Reputation Power: 51
  • RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.
  • R A I N B R O S
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 13th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 9th Birthday Cake10th Trials - Master of FireElemental Conquest WinnerWriting Competition - Across(tic) the World of ElementsWeekly Tournament Winner1st Grandmaster Battle Winner - FireThere Can Be Only One - 2016 WinnerGold DonorChampionship League 2/2015 2nd Place9th Trials - Master of FireElements: A Game of Politics - WinnerEnder of War War #8 Winner - Team FireWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerChampionship League 1/2013 WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerWar #4 Winner - Team DeathChampionship League 3/2011 3rd PlaceWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerBeginners League 2/2011 2nd PlaceWeekly PvP Tournament WinnerWeekly PvP Tournament WinnerBeginners League 1/2011 2nd PlaceWeekly PvP Tournament Winner
Re: No one can win any arguments, ever. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49005.msg1066647#msg1066647
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2013, 02:24:13 am »
Good article, even though the conclusion it reaches has depressing implications.
Still, I feel like these conclusions are not applicable to every scenario.

Primarily, I would expect intelligent and reasonable people to be mostly immune to the backfire effect. I've changed peoples beliefs through arguments and my beliefs themselves have been changed because the people I argue with use logic to determine what they believe, at least to a more significant extent than most of the population. If this study were repeated to test only those with a high level of education or high IQ, I would expect the backfire effect to be false.

Additionally, the article does not account for people more towards the middle ground (or, if it did, I didn't read that far.) While the people who are completely adamant about their beliefs may never change, most people are not completely one sided. They may have a preference to a side, but not feel attached to it completely. Thus, they would be convinced through arguments and not really suffer from the backfire effect.

Nevertheless, this certainly was a very interesting article, as depressing as it is to read. Thanks for bringing it up. I guess I should stop arguing with some people if they just can't be changed.
Somehow still around, somewhat

Offline BloodshadowTopic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4030
  • Country: ca
  • Reputation Power: 46
  • Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.
  • 吞天纳地,魔渡众生。天下万物,唯我至尊。
  • Awards: Ultimate Profile WinnerOpposites Attract
Re: No one can win any arguments, ever. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49005.msg1066655#msg1066655
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2013, 02:53:22 am »
Okay.

If a thread bores you, do you have to make a snide comment about it?

Why do you have links to random advertisements BloodShadow?

So you consider the article I linked an advertisement?

Primarily, I would expect intelligent and reasonable people to be mostly immune to the backfire effect. I've changed peoples beliefs through arguments and my beliefs themselves have been changed because the people I argue with use logic to determine what they believe, at least to a more significant extent than most of the population. If this study were repeated to test only those with a high level of education or high IQ, I would expect the backfire effect to be false.

Additionally, the article does not account for people more towards the middle ground (or, if it did, I didn't read that far.) While the people who are completely adamant about their beliefs may never change, most people are not completely one sided. They may have a preference to a side, but not feel attached to it completely. Thus, they would be convinced through arguments and not really suffer from the backfire effect.

I think pretty much everyone has some beliefs that they're really adamant about. That, and people really hate to lose, especially on the internet. After all, on the internet we don't have to play nice all the time.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

Offline ZephyrPhantom

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7675
  • Country: aq
  • Reputation Power: 101
  • ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 6th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeFlavour Text Revival Competition - WinnerSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 2nd Birthday Cake
Re: No one can win any arguments, ever. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49005.msg1066665#msg1066665
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2013, 03:40:30 am »
Why do you have links to random advertisements BloodShadow?
Because an excerpt from a book isn't the point, it's the argument contained -within- that excerpt that you're supposd to focus on.

Quote
What should be evident from the studies on the backfire effect is you can never win an argument online.
But if you lose, doesn't that mean the other person has won? If the other person was won, from their point of view a "you" has technically won the argument and proved their facts "correct" (no matter how fallacious, and regardless of whether they are disproved later on)

Quote from: Kent State Incident
...The bias for the National Guard or the protesters was stronger the more knowledgeable the subject. The people who only had a basic understanding experienced a weak backfire effect when considering the evidence. The backfire effect pushed those who had put more thought into the matter farther from the gray areas....
Doesn't this and the corresponding argument in the article imply that there was a group that knew enough about the Kent State Incident to make a rational judgement, but were willing enough to concede to an opposing belief?

There should be someone in the world with enough skepticism or weak enough beliefs to be able to realize they cannot be right all the time in argument - in fact, the very existence of the 'judge' and 'jury' in a court system with a prosecutor and a defending attorney prove the awareness of the fact that there must be someone who is able to arbitrate without falling to any bias (including the backfire effect)?

From their respective Wikipedia articles :

Quote
A jury is a sworn body of people convened to render an impartial verdict (a finding of fact on a question) officially submitted to them by a court, or to set a penalty or judgment. Modern juries tend to be found in courts to ascertain the guilt, or lack thereof, in a crime. In Anglophone jurisdictions, the verdict may be guilty, not guilty, or (in Scotland) not proven. Juries are composed of jurors (also sometimes known as jurymen), who are by definition illiterates in the law and finders of fact, not professionals.

Quote
A judge is an official who presides over court proceedings, either alone or as part of a panel of judges. The powers, functions, method of appointment, discipline, and training of judges vary widely across different jurisdictions. The judge is supposed to conduct the trial impartially and in an open court. The judge hears all the witnesses and any other evidence presented by the parties of the case, assesses the credibility and arguments of the parties, and then issues a ruling on the matter at hand based on his or her interpretation of the law and his or her own personal judgment. In some jurisdictions, the judge's powers may be shared with a jury. In inquisitorial systems of criminal investigation, a judge might also be an examining magistrate.


As an example case : The Boston Massacre of 1770 was conducted at the time under popular opinion that the Britsh soldiers involved were murderser - from eyewitness reports, the colonists involved could've been anything from people throwing insults to be people that provoked the soldiers by hurling rocks. Despite the colonists believing the Massacre was a one-sided murder and potentially intimidating Loyalist/pro-British lawyers to decline defending the soldiers at the trial, John Adams instead took up the opposing standpoint despite the very likely possibility that majority opinion was against the British soldiers in the interest of a "fair trial".

Quote
The jury agreed with Adams and acquitted six of the soldiers after two and one-half hours deliberation. Two of the soldiers were found guilty of manslaughter because there was overwhelming evidence that they fired directly into the crowd. The jury's decisions suggest that they believed the soldiers had felt threatened by the crowd, but should have delayed firing.[63] Patrick Carr, the fifth victim, corroborated this with a deathbed testimony delivered to his doctor.[64] The convicted soldiers were granted reduced sentences by invoking Benefit of clergy, which reduced their punishment from a death sentence to branding of the thumb in open court.[65]

What stands out the most to me is the highlighted statement - despite the backfire effect implying that a dying victim of the massacre should condemn his 'murders' ("I'm dying because of these guys, they were shooting at me! That's evidence enough!"), he chose instead to support the idea that the crowd had wrongly provoked the soldiers, even if the soldiers had responded too soon.

Another thing to note is that the majority of soldiers were acquitted despite popular opinion that they had committed murder. John Adams, as a result, won 'his' argument based on the 'legal right to fight back', but was willing to concede the point that firing back did imply manslaughter - a 'middle ground', as Rootranger mentioned above that would accept a compromise of the two stories. ('Innocent' self defense vs. Murder)

There's a flaw in my argument, though : I'm using a rather outdated court case to argue a against a point that may have strongly changed due to the advent of the Internet. With the emphasis on speed, it is much easier for people to misbelieve things.

While I could potentially argue that one must 'scale' the environment (Boston Massacre to Boston, Internet to Earth) of the cases involved, I am unwilling to argue this point without finding further proof that the Internet does not alter either the backfire effect or the 'want to concede'. As a result I've stopped myself from arguing a point that may strengthen a 'backfire' on me despite the presence of a contradicting factor/('a correction') that may completely prove my argument invalid, at least until I find proof or another factor that lets me consider the argument of 'want to concede' further. The fact that I am willing to accept a damaging variable into my argument proves that it is possible to be 'self-skeptic' ; if it turns out that the presence of the Internet or other outside factors is wrong, then the most practical course would be to accept it until another contradiction to the 'fact' is exposed, in which then the process would repeat as I try to discern which side of the argument is accurate, or a combination of both of the arguments is accurate.

Another thing to consider :  A competitive card game PvP match can simplified to two players trying to prove that their deck is superior, with each individual deck representing an 'argument' made out of cards that they feel are better.
If people really hate to lose on the Internet, then what is the point of 'good sportsmanship' on this forum or card games in general? Why, if a player supposedly stubbornly 'believes' only his combination of cards will result in victory, do other players go back to reconfigure decks and change strategies, or even scrap decks altogether? (If you scrap a deck, you admit the deck's strategy was wrong to use since it cannot prove superior to other decks.)

Regardless of right or wrong, this was definitely an article that made me think for a bit. Thanks for sharing the link, Bloodshadow.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2013, 04:14:17 am by Zblader »

Offline Higurashi

  • Administrator
  • ********
  • Posts: 7835
  • Country: no
  • Reputation Power: 103
  • Higurashi is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Higurashi is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Higurashi is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Higurashi is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Higurashi is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Higurashi is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Higurashi is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Higurashi is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Higurashi is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Higurashi is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Higurashi is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Higurashi is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Higurashi is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Higurashi is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Higurashi is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
  • Æther in Æternum enim Æquilibrio
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 14th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 13th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 12th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 11th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 10th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 9th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 8th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 7th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 6th Birthday CakeWinner of Team PvP #6Slice of Elements 5th Birthday CakeWeekly Tournament WinnerFalse Gods Competition: Reloaded - WinnerSlice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday Cake4th Trials - Master of Aether3rd Trials - Master of AetherWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerSlice of Elements 2nd Birthday Cake
Re: No one can win any arguments, ever. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49005.msg1066862#msg1066862
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2013, 05:51:55 pm »
I'm glad you took the time to share some basic psychology. This is very valuable information for people on the net that haven't read and understood psychology. Though it had nothing new for me, and it's pretty annoying when the article insists that it has a certain effect on me and that's it's oh so shocking, I can see why a -lot- of people need to read about these things.

In my experience, though, this psychological function of ours doesn't produce the same result if you 1) know about it, and 2) account for it. Ever since I was a teenager and actually got on the net to debate things, I always kept empathy at the forefront of my mind. This is because of my upbringing, and I know it's not common.
Through understanding psychological functions like this one and many, many more, you can easily adjust how you present information to people. I've been in thousands of debates where I've changed my mind or changed someone else's mind, and it's all up to how you word things.

Basically, of course you don't want to be contradicting someone if you ever want to convince them of something. Almost any other method is more effective and respectful, and many methods are very effective while still not forcing you to compromise logic, rationality or having to suck up to anyone. In the end, winning an argument just means someone has learned something from the exchange. That's the only way to win anything in life.
:aether  http://elementscommunity.org/forum/guilds/991-thunderbolts-ho!-991/ :aether
Aether is the prime Element present in all things, providing space, connection and balance for all Elements to exist.
Aether represents the sense of joy and union, and the ultimate potential of all things.

Offline cometbah

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 151
  • Reputation Power: 1
  • cometbah is a Spark waiting for a buff.
Re: No one can win any arguments, ever. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49005.msg1066864#msg1066864
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2013, 05:55:16 pm »
Okay.

If a thread bores you, do you have to make a snide comment about it?

(S)he is refraining from logical argument and using 'deception, coercion, blackmail, or other dirty tricks as needed' =9

It's not like (s)he can win the argument, ever.

Offline Acab Jef

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 64
  • Country: nl
  • Reputation Power: 1
  • Acab Jef is a Spark waiting for a buff.
  • BURN!
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 4th Birthday Cake
Re: No one can win any arguments, ever. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49005.msg1066870#msg1066870
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2013, 06:42:54 pm »
Okay.

If a thread bores you, do you have to make a snide comment about it?

(S)he is refraining from logical argument and using 'deception, coercion, blackmail, or other dirty tricks as needed' =9

It's not like (s)he can win the argument, ever.

so if i read the article correctly, you get it? with just arguing with a logical argument?
I do not know if i get it all or not. :P
My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.

Offline BloodshadowTopic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4030
  • Country: ca
  • Reputation Power: 46
  • Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.
  • 吞天纳地,魔渡众生。天下万物,唯我至尊。
  • Awards: Ultimate Profile WinnerOpposites Attract
Re: No one can win any arguments, ever. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49005.msg1066929#msg1066929
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2013, 09:43:43 pm »
Basically, of course you don't want to be contradicting someone if you ever want to convince them of something. Almost any other method is more effective and respectful, and many methods are very effective while still not forcing you to compromise logic, rationality or having to suck up to anyone. In the end, winning an argument just means someone has learned something from the exchange. That's the only way to win anything in life.

I've once read somewhere, can't remember where, that people don't exactly care about learning anything or about truth. They just want to win, or at least not lose, to feed their egos or something along those lines. It's true that such tendencies are less prominent in some people than others, and such people can appear to argue and learn rationally. But on a subconscious level, I'd think that everyone is at least somewhat affected by the backfire effect. You can't be a mentally normal human without having an ego.

(S)he is refraining from logical argument and using 'deception, coercion, blackmail, or other dirty tricks as needed' =9

It's not like (s)he can win the argument, ever.

But there is no argument here. I can't care less about what opinions he may have. Seems like s/he was just trying to piss me off, which was uncalled for; the lack of basic civility is what I care somewhat about.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

Offline cometbah

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 151
  • Reputation Power: 1
  • cometbah is a Spark waiting for a buff.
Re: No one can win any arguments, ever. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49005.msg1066945#msg1066945
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2013, 10:15:53 pm »
I can't care less about what opinions he may have. Seems like s/he was just trying to piss me off, which was uncalled for; the lack of basic civility is what I care somewhat about.

And (s)he was also expressing that (s)he could not care less about your opinion.

I think it was a response that demonstrates very well the problems of philosophical sophism, although the response may not have been made with that purpose in mind.

Essentially: if your claim is true, then, according to yourself, you are wasting your time trying to convince people it is true. If it is not true, people are wasting their time looking at an un-truth.

Edit:
(I am not insulting/berating/otherwise direspecting you, by the way. I am only arguing, on philosophical grounds, that the act of making this particular claim is meaningless, similar to claiming the truthfulness of the statement 'there exists no truth')
« Last Edit: May 05, 2013, 10:21:40 pm by cometbah »

Offline Acab Jef

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 64
  • Country: nl
  • Reputation Power: 1
  • Acab Jef is a Spark waiting for a buff.
  • BURN!
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 4th Birthday Cake
Re: No one can win any arguments, ever. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49005.msg1066946#msg1066946
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2013, 10:18:24 pm »
Quote
Essentially: if your claim is true, then, according to yourself, you are wasting your time trying to convince people it is true. If it is not true, people are wasting theri time looking at an un-truth.

so everything you(everyone) do is wasted time?
My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.

 

blarg: