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Offline OldTrees

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Re: No one can win any arguments, ever. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49005.msg1067197#msg1067197
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2013, 09:31:36 am »
...did you seriously try to convince people of stuff on 4chan?

It might've been one of those relatively good parts of 4chan. Try /b/.
I know of 2 Btards in real life. I tried to convince them that trolling is not worth their time. The one I met in high school was convinced. The one I met in college corrected me.
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Offline Higurashi

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Re: No one can win any arguments, ever. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49005.msg1067307#msg1067307
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2013, 05:47:05 pm »
Basically, of course you don't want to be contradicting someone if you ever want to convince them of something. Almost any other method is more effective and respectful, and many methods are very effective while still not forcing you to compromise logic, rationality or having to suck up to anyone. In the end, winning an argument just means someone has learned something from the exchange. That's the only way to win anything in life.

I've once read somewhere, can't remember where, that people don't exactly care about learning anything or about truth. They just want to win, or at least not lose, to feed their egos or something along those lines. It's true that such tendencies are less prominent in some people than others, and such people can appear to argue and learn rationally. But on a subconscious level, I'd think that everyone is at least somewhat affected by the backfire effect. You can't be a mentally normal human without having an ego.
Mm, I don't know. I've known a lot of competitive teenagers alright, my little brother being one of them, but people usually grow out of that since it's just a manifestation of identity-seeking and insecurity. Egos are a very fragile thing when they don't have much experience yet, and thus very defensive.

I don't think a mature, rational individual is ever forced into a backfire effect unless it's earthshaking to their existence. Some people need their strong beliefs in order to keep on trucking, but I don't think most people are ever forced into the backfire effect. Having an ego doesn't equate to irrationally responding with your emotions just because something contests one of your beliefs. I've come to know a lot of open-minded people and if I may be a bit presumptuous I think your bitterness could be cured in the same way mine was. I was a wronged, lonely and angry teenager coming out of a terrible childhood.

That said, sure, most young people think it's too much work to be open-minded. They're generally pretty uninformed and lazy, but it's getting better. More and more are taking an interest in society, and the age where people are getting more involved seems to be lowering. Even the net ain't so bad; you just have to find the constructive communities. The net tends to make people follow existing trends where they are even more than normal.
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Offline kimham8a

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Re: No one can win any arguments, ever. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49005.msg1067572#msg1067572
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2013, 02:48:21 am »
Why do you have links to random advertisements BloodShadow?
So you consider the article I linked an advertisement?
At the time, yes. There may be something wrong with my computer, because every few words in your paragraph had a link to something like "Solid Savings Coupons" or something.
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Offline BloodshadowTopic starter

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Re: No one can win any arguments, ever. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49005.msg1067676#msg1067676
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2013, 08:40:08 am »
I see no advertisements in the article text itself.
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: No one can win any arguments, ever. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49005.msg1067748#msg1067748
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2013, 02:25:36 pm »
Why do you have links to random advertisements BloodShadow?
So you consider the article I linked an advertisement?
At the time, yes. There may be something wrong with my computer, because every few words in your paragraph had a link to something like "Solid Savings Coupons" or something.
I do not see these links. Check your computer for viruses and malware.
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Offline sixers

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Re: No one can win any arguments, ever. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49005.msg1067897#msg1067897
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2013, 09:51:35 pm »
That is for the common sense, average person, discussion type of argument. That's how the average person reasons. That's not how it's done in science and academics.  (at least that's the veil they hide behind, they are probably just as illogical and biased as everyone else. [still, i truly believe we are making progress {at least, i want to believe}] )


Offline 1011686

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Re: No one can win any arguments, ever. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49005.msg1209697#msg1209697
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2015, 08:49:35 am »
i have both seen and and felt the backfire effect.
Very often if i hear someone saying something that disagrees with what i've read (i trust books a lot), i will try and engage them in a conversation. But, i tend to be more persistent and pedantic than most people tolerate, and they ignore my logic.

On the other side, sometimes i say what i think is correct, but a teacher tells me i'm wrong. I will often ignore any evidence they give if it doesn't don't directly contradict what i've said, and once i have (usually) been cobvinced, i feel that they could have explained it better, when they probably talked as informativly as me
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Offline kaempfer13

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Re: No one can win any arguments, ever. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49005.msg1209731#msg1209731
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2015, 02:02:49 pm »
I think the best way to overcome the backfire effect (if applicable) is to base your logic on something the other person already believes in. This is a lot easier to accomplish in science than anywhere else, since (supposedly, hopefully) both believe in scientific prove.
Also it should help a lot to:
- see an argument as a way to gather information as opposed to a battle (you would not want to accept losing a battle, even if your initial reasoning was wrong; especially if your initial reasoning was wrong, because then losing adds insult to injury)
- believe that the best way to argue is to consider the other guys opinion as unbiased and thouroughly as possible (like that any logic will be based on at least something you already believe in and you can choose which one sounds more logical to you)
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