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Offline Higurashi

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Re: Elements the Role-Playing Game http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55524.msg1153346#msg1153346
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2014, 03:25:17 PM »
Ah yes, power-gaming. 'Tis an age-old debate, especially with old-fashioned GM's. I'll use Ilyana as an example to show my point, since she's obviously min-maxed:
I want to role-play a physically feeble, clumsy and immensely talented magician who has trouble tapping into her enormous power and isn't really aware yet of the powers hidden behind the veil of normal reality. Her aloofness is connected to this, but again she doesn't know and this will be developed upon later as she becomes more experienced since she's still young and naive right now. With all this in mind, I'd be maxing out her Luck stat if there was one, as this plays into the chaotic, fumbling and oblivious powerful force of nature I enjoy playing in many games (Chaos Sorc in D&D anyone?). As it is, there is no Luck stat, so I'll have to role-play that part, but the low Dex helps me in this regard and helps add to her charm.

The fainting spells due to hyperactive metabolism is a straight rip from the Ilyana in Fire Emblem alright, and it's because I want to try role-playing a physically feeble character for once. With all that in mind, I don't want to drop dead the second combat starts; not because I want to "win" the game, which is what power-gamers aim for, but because dying easily without a chance to use my great magical powers simply isn't -fun-.

Her high Charisma partially stems from her extremely strong connection to the otherworldly powers; because they feel like part of normal nature to Ilyana, she would have no problems whatsoever with befriending or leading otherworldly creatures, and of course partially because I need her to have high charisma to be useful. When it comes to charisma towards normal beings, my explanation naturally gets more contrived, but fact remains that she was born with extreme intellect, a calculating mind that others may come to trust to make the right decision, and an aloofness that prevents her emotions from influencing her decisions. At the same time, she feels a connection to all living things and would sacrifice much to protect life; it's just that she hasn't ever felt truly at home in the normal world. Her love for running comes largely from this feeling; exercise helps her disconnect from the petty affairs of everyday life. In fact, her connection to other realms have strengthened in times when she has managed to empty her mind and let it wander in thought of the endless possibilities of the stars and outer space.

In addition to this, she's a beautiful young woman who obviously needs protection and help in the real world. This is something people notice very quickly because of their protective nature or because of their own agendas. Because of this, I'm still debating whether to invest in Summoning for her or not; if she managed to summon otherworldly creatures to talk to, perhaps her entire character conflict with the real world would become void and she'd have protection by her own means as well. Perhaps it would be best saved for "Epic" levels when she's older and more experienced.  All this in mind, I will be further showing why people may or may not come to trust in her once I get the chance to role-play her.

So in summary: characters aren't always min-maxed because of power-gaming. It may be because it's what the player wants to role-play and because they don't want to be useless in combat, since it's not -fun- to be unable to play your character.
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Offline Naesala

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Re: Elements the Role-Playing Game http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55524.msg1153355#msg1153355
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2014, 04:25:59 PM »
So in summary: characters aren't always min-maxed because of power-gaming. It may be because it's what the player wants to role-play and because they don't want to be useless in combat, since it's not -fun- to be unable to play your character.
I agree with this quote 100%

I am an experienced game master and player, with several years of experience in both. My suggestions aren't because I've been "babyfed" by RPG videogames. In all honesty, I tend to want to play weaker characters in roleplays where the rules are vague. When the rules are concrete numbers, I become much more concerned, as weak characters can die easily.

The way I keep seeing this spoken about and ruled is a specific kind of game feeling. It feels like AD&D, where warriors are strong early weak later, Mages are weak early but unstoppable later, and rogues hit the medium. It also feels like the older style roleplaying games in that it's low fantasy and that character death is very easy to occur.

But let's compare that to our setting. Elements has a very high fantasy feel (everything is composed of quanta, False Gods roam around, etc.) It's not unreasonable to expect our characters not to be demigods but at least show some measure of prowess. Additionally, we want to encourage people to play characters they like, not choose a build that can do something productive and then make a character.

I use the term classes whether there are classes or not. Classes is a term I use with any RPG, even casual forum roleplaying with no rules, because it helps explain an archetype and communicates what they can do/are meant to do. Whether I use general gaming terms (Tank) D&D classes (Fighter) or other fantasy terms (Warrior), I'm still trying to give people an idea of who I am without having to give my entire backstory.

The most important rule in every roleplaying book (even frequently written in some books) is to have fun. With most people I know, the fun of roleplaying is in three parts: Being able to escape to a character you'd like to be, being able to do cool things with your powers, and developing your character through interactions. Right now, the first two parts of that are very limited. You claim that I can be anything, any class, but then the rules are built so no, not really. You want to shy away from the typical class system, but the current system highly encourages min-maxing and falling into an archetype.

I'm glad your considering another skill tree, as this will loosen up some of the problems with the game. It's definitely a step in the right direction. However, right now I have to choose between scrapping my character or completely reworking her, or dropping out. I don't know which I feel like doing yet, I'd prefer we came to a better consensus.

Rant over
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Offline TikoTopic starter

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Re: Elements the Role-Playing Game http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55524.msg1153369#msg1153369
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2014, 06:12:06 PM »
So my assumption of powerplay turned out to be rudeness maybe? If that is so, I apologize for it; may could've rephrase that. Yet no specific character were accused, and it was meant as more of a precaution on my side. So why the urge to rant? Why do you feel so offended if you know it does not apply for you?

That aside, let's have a look at your character:

Spoiler for Ivanna:

All seems to be in place, she looks well balanced for a lvl 1 character that can handle many different situations. I have no real idea of where will she develop further on higher levels, but I take it you have a clear picture on that. So, what turns out to be the problem is the armor you're wearing conflicts with your under-average strength, and I believe that was the starting point of your frustration. As per the current rule added, you'll get 30% Fumble and -3 reaction time. Does this penalty sound that unrealistic and punishing? If you're so weak then why do you cling so much to that Heavy armor which is clearly more than your body can handle?
 
Also, what prowess are you expecting on lvl 1? There's 19 more levels there to do just that.

The game is open for all and any suggestions or changes, and I'd be happy to hear them. Just take your tone down a bit, and provide reasons or examples with them.



As for character death: Yes, you can die easily. But you will only die if you do stupid things. Every GM handles death differently, but characters should never be forced into fatal situations, unless they provoked it for themselves. And even then, the GM always has the power to save a character. I  for one, may be an 'old-fashioned' GM, but I do understand a player's attachement to his/her character and would never kill any for my own amusement. Promise. All my encounters will be planned and modified exclusively for the PC-group to overcome, and while some may seem more difficult than others, you will always have several options to succeed - if there's any doubt with my past experience. That is also the main reason I implied min-maxing isn't necessary. Your character will be always useful, both in- and outside of combat.

That said, from you I didn't expect any less from what you presented, Marisa. Sorry again for the misconception.

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Offline Naesala

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Re: Elements the Role-Playing Game http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55524.msg1153389#msg1153389
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2014, 08:04:41 PM »
I am completely for the 30% fumble and -3 reaction, I feel that is a perfectly fine punishment for wearing very heavy armor. I do not like that it locks me out of two types of spellcasting. I do not see what is wrong with my tone, I am just trying to explain my view on this and I was showing problems. At this point you have addressed most of the problems, with the promise of non-magic skill trees and allowing me to wear the armor. It's just the fact that I can't cast in it. If you wanted to add a reasonable spell failure chance, fine, but I don't see why I would be unable to cast at all in armor.

Spoiler for Ivanna Breakdown:
Right now, Ivanna would have to chose between stripping down and being able to cast her summon/telekinis but being extremely vulnerable (rendering her a mage), or leaving her armor on and being a weak armed, poor aiming tank. Looking at my stat choices and her design, I obviously want her focus to be summoning. She was a captain in a mercenary guild, so she has less field practice (low Str and Dex) but she has a nice shiny suit of armor and crossbow that've probably barely been tested. I have incantations on the side, namely for Telekinises and eventually Gpull perhaps. I have enough intelligence to perform my spells, and endurance to tank while the summons take the offense. A small amount of utility with a primary focus on summons and tanking. She'd be slow and clumsy (Armor penalties) but be able to work well with allies as a strategest (Int+Cha). Do I seem like I'm asking for to much? She is already heavily penalized in order to have her character design make sense, but with armor preventing spellcasting, then this doesn't work for a character concept at all.

As to "why cling to armor" there are a ton of reasons, in and out of character for a character like Ivanna to wear it. A feeling of security when one is weak. An emotional connection to the armor (as is the case here). Willingness to give up speed for defense. Heck, not knowing better. It isn't like I'm a cripple 1 STR or anything, I'm slightly below average for a human.

To reiterate: My only current problem is that armor prevents spellcasting. Everything else that bothers me is being addressed or has been addressed.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2014, 08:15:39 PM by Naesala »
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Offline TikoTopic starter

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Re: Elements the Role-Playing Game http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55524.msg1153400#msg1153400
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2014, 08:43:35 PM »
Very well, let's put all those bad things behind then, if there were any.

You have a point there. With the addition of the ST req-penalty (which frees up the option of more varied equipment for any char) it indeed turns out to be overly crippling with spell restrictions (mostly tested on your char, and also on higher levels based loosely on your plan against a bunch of various other chars and NPCs). I will look into it further tomorrow, but I'm confident to say that the Proficiency restrictions doesn't serve their purpose anymore and became renundant. Stat distribution should sufficiently limit your possibilities this way.

So, for the time being:


Wearing Heavy Armor and Shields will not hinder your spellcasting abilities in any way.



Please check your characters if this change may affect you, I'll update the rules later.
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Offline Naesala

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Re: Elements the Role-Playing Game http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55524.msg1153411#msg1153411
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2014, 09:33:25 PM »
Thank you! It's good to see you taking feedback and refining this. I'm very excited to play this when the time comes.
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Offline Drake_XIV

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Re: Elements the Role-Playing Game http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55524.msg1153434#msg1153434
« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2014, 12:41:23 AM »
Thought I could catch up and read when the weekend came along. Looks like I have more to peruse than I thought.

Offline Nepycros

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Re: Elements the Role-Playing Game http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55524.msg1153443#msg1153443
« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2014, 02:42:33 AM »
Thought I could catch up and read when the weekend came along. Looks like I have more to peruse than I thought.

Wasting your 6666th post here?! Come on, man.
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Offline TikoTopic starter

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Re: Elements the Role-Playing Game http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55524.msg1154859#msg1154859
« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2014, 06:34:54 PM »
I feel I should post factum apologize for the lack of progress or updates; but due to a sudden (yet somewhat expected) loss of a close family member I couldn't get my thoughts around the subject at all.

I hope you understand.



But, Shantu did make some basic outlines for (a) possible Physical Skill Tree(s), so I can only hope that he will post them soonish - but in the meantime I'd also like to hear your ideas about possible skills, specials or bonuses that could make these builds more colorful.

Thanks.
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Re: Elements the Role-Playing Game http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55524.msg1160507#msg1160507
« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2014, 12:43:08 AM »
Did someone say RPG? I'll join (if it's not too late, that is).
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Offline TikoTopic starter

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Re: Elements the Role-Playing Game http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55524.msg1162177#msg1162177
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2014, 06:40:02 PM »
Did someone say RPG? I'll join (if it's not too late, that is).

It's still in the planning phase so you didn't miss anything, but the project's on hold temporarily while War is happening. Take your time with Character planning until then.
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Offline propheon

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Re: Elements the Role-Playing Game http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55524.msg1162332#msg1162332
« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2014, 04:55:37 AM »
im joining a rpg for the 3rd time i hope this is not another one that will ask me to be patient for like 6 months
This Time!

 

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