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Offline joegreenbeen

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Re: Elements the Role-Playing Game http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55524.msg1152974#msg1152974
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2014, 06:14:35 pm »
Hope that clears it up. We are glad to see so much interest. :)

Thank You! I fixed my character now. I can't wait, I hope more people will participate.

Offline TikoTopic starter

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Re: Elements the Role-Playing Game http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55524.msg1152975#msg1152975
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2014, 06:33:12 pm »
I forgot to mention (amongst a lot of other things.. thanks for jumping in, Shantu) that you can also change your Level too (from 1-20) for more extensive character planning.

I'd also like to say, that the test-campaign may take some time to assemble, so I ask for everyone's patience.
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Re: Elements the Role-Playing Game http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55524.msg1153055#msg1153055
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2014, 10:07:29 am »
Following and intending to join

Offline TikoTopic starter

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Re: Elements the Role-Playing Game http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55524.msg1153273#msg1153273
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2014, 07:06:27 pm »
A small update to the OP; if you have anything to add, feel free to suggest:

  • Grammar and a few EtG card transition error corrections.
  • Talent starting affinity fix: Savage (Air, Light, Life, Gravity), Adept (Water, Darkness, Death, Entropy).
  • Fixed some Tier (Holy Light - Blessing, Plate Armor - Stoneskin) and several minor errors on all Skill tree sheets.
  • Missing ST requirement penalty added. We'll see how it goes.
  • Added Fight example (more complex examples coming soon) with a sneak-peek of a possible NPC.
  • Added missing descriptions of Skill transfer, Obsession and Shared. (IV. Elemental Abilities)

Regarding the GM handbook: I decided to wait with it until the "testgame" is concluded. Too many possible fail factors.

Now back to campaign-making.



Spoiler for Marisa:
I was wondering if is it possible to link the embeds to their respective Gdocs pages for a better view? Or a seperate url line is much more simple? I'm starting to be afraid of the charlimit..

Also, this spoiler wouldn't be complete without a thanks for your time.
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Offline Higurashi

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Re: Elements the Role-Playing Game http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55524.msg1153280#msg1153280
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2014, 08:35:39 pm »
Sure, but adding a URL that points to the sheet makes it so the link is only clickable on the very edges of the picture of the spreadsheet. Perhaps a better option would be to have the subheader point to the document. I've done both now on the subheader and document preview of Elemental Abilities so that you can see what I mean.

And since you borked the html by editing, I fixed the subsequent spreadsheet previews too. It's no problem :>
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Re: Elements the Role-Playing Game http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55524.msg1153283#msg1153283
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2014, 10:06:32 pm »
I'll follow this, though sadly I haven't invested enough attention to this forum to regularly check. Is there a foundation plot set in the background that characters may be reacting to? Overwhelming entities, spirits guiding them, etc?
Perception is the source of misunderstanding.

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Re: Elements the Role-Playing Game http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55524.msg1153289#msg1153289
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2014, 12:02:35 am »
I'll join this because yay.

If I was to make a complaint about the rules, it would be that it looks like the rules heavily favour Intelligence over every other stat. This is because intelligence looks like it has to be used to do every interesting effect in the game (ie; spells.) with charisma being added to do another third of these spells, the summons. Strength, Dexterity and Endurance increase the power of the odd spell, but compare that to every other spell...

Moreover, (the heaviest) armour and weapons, which seems to be the sole reason you would ever invest in strength, stop you from casting all those handy-dandy spells. A tank would want to wear heavy armour and a shield, but suddenly doesn't want to because then he won't be able to cast gravity pull to attract everyone towards her. Unless you want me to take off my heavy armour, naked, cast gravity pull, then put my heavy armour back on, which... No. 7 strength is quite a devotion. Let me cast some spells with heavy stuff and shields.

Just at a quick glance. It's more than possible I've overlooked something.

Speaking of shields, can I dual-wield shields?

Offline Higurashi

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Re: Elements the Role-Playing Game http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55524.msg1153293#msg1153293
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2014, 12:22:58 am »
It's common for tanks to have to focus on either more durability, more offence or more utility. The difference between 1 or 3 defence is definitely big, but you still get access to Enchantments and Alchemy as a heavy tank. If you want to be a tank with more utility, it makes sense that you can just go with light armor.

That said, there could be medium armors that only disallow Summoning and, if we had a dodge stat, we could have Light Shields that allow all spellcasting. Bucklers and small shields do not hinder hand or finger movements.

Or we can just add another status effect called Taunted where you're most likely to attack the target that taunted you. From experience, tanks need either an AoE ability, a free action ability with range, or the ability to cause Taunt passively with melee attacks. All of these would probably be from abilities in Gravity, but could fit in many elements through themes like hypnotizing (Aether), charming (Life, Light?), controlling (Aether, Darkness) or manipulating (Darkness, Entropy).

Or we just add a Gravity Pull-like effect to some Enchantment in Gravity.
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Re: Elements the Role-Playing Game http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55524.msg1153312#msg1153312
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2014, 07:30:16 am »
Well, I'm allowed to use armors now, but you just blocked off the ability to spell cast while in them, so there's no point in it again. Now I just have a huge fumble chance or, like Frozen said, I can disrobe, cast, and redress. Regardless, the class options I had mentioned earlier are still not viable options in the current system. And I agree, intelligence is extremely more important as a stat because it opens so many options. Current Fighter/Rogue/Archer builds would most be "I hit them with my ___" every turn every combat, and the static numbers mean that wouldn't even be interesting or varied.
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Re: Elements the Role-Playing Game http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55524.msg1153314#msg1153314
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2014, 07:38:08 am »
Woahhhh

Is it too late to join?
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Offline Espithel

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Re: Elements the Role-Playing Game http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55524.msg1153321#msg1153321
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2014, 11:17:48 am »
What I would >really< like is for melee combat and ranged combat to have its own skill sheet/tree, just like enchantment/invocation/summoning. That would pretty much fix the entire problem.

If I was making this... ruleset, I would have a stat called finesse that functions similar to quanta, but is used for these two skills, giving characters with dexterity and strength more finesse. Finesse would be used to use skills and abilities in the melee/ranged skill sheet/tree, combined with elemental affinity.

Offline TikoTopic starter

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Re: Elements the Role-Playing Game http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55524.msg1153322#msg1153322
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2014, 12:00:27 pm »
I hope I'm awake enough to evaluate on these issues properly, but let me try nonetheless.
 
 
 
I'll follow this, though sadly I haven't invested enough attention to this forum to regularly check. Is there a foundation plot set in the background that characters may be reacting to? Overwhelming entities, spirits guiding them, etc?

Personally (as the GM), I'm only interested in your character's profession and a little personal background of how he/she ended up on the path of adventuring. From there I can easily link them into the story, but please keep it in mind that you will play Level 1 characters (which means you hardly stand out from everyday folk, but you already 'show potential'), and if you meant any great or heroic past deeds or epic backstory - please reconsider.
 
Everything else is for you to decide. Any additional hints of the character's attitude, beliefs, spiritual background or personal quests and friendships (with another character even) are always welcome, and can bring more life to the play. I may ask you to modify some things in your biography to sync it more with the main storyline, but even then it's not likely.
 
 
 
I'll join this because yay.
 
If I was to make a complaint about the rules, it would be that it looks like the rules heavily favour Intelligence over every other stat. This is because intelligence looks like it has to be used to do every interesting effect in the game (ie; spells.) with charisma being added to do another third of these spells, the summons. Strength, Dexterity and Endurance increase the power of the odd spell, but compare that to every other spell...

What you say may be true for first, that isn't exactly the case. Naturally, elemental abilities seem much more interesting then just hacking n' slashing your way through the world, but are they really that more 'handy-dandy'? Full spellcasters while powerful (with their high bursts of damage and special effects) if used in the right situations, they can hardly handle any conflict all by themselves. Sure, setting alight everyone around who doesn't agree with your will is a fine demonstration of power, but I'm sure you'll be stabbed to death by the time you're preparing your second spell. But looking at it from the other perspective: a full physical build can often smash spellcasters in one or two hits with their steady (and high) damage output, but effects like weaken, blindness or the dreaded delay spells - while can't kill a character by themselves - make things much more complicated. While these are meant to show the extremes, any build that you make between should sacrifice something for something. There's no real fun in an all-powerful character.
 
So that brings me to my first observation: looking through the character sheets, I feel that some people may be following today's (electronic media based) RPGs 'powerplaying concept'. We tried to emphasize it before, but I should do it again: the characters should be about role-playing, about getting the best out of one's skills and talents in various and stressed situations, and not about godlings walking the earth (with the exception of very high charlevels). That is the very reason why you are impersonating the roles of humans, to get an idea of your natural abilities and limits, while also developing a personality to go with the stats. Stats are meant only as a numerical rating for each of the five attributes (hence their naming), and you should be prepared when deciding on extremely high or low values, that the world will react to you the way that it should be expected in quasi-real circumstances. For example, in the case of Charisma: With low values, not only some people will simply look over you (despite your actions or deeds), going lower they may even find you upright repulsive and are always suspicious of you. But on the contrary, with an outstanding attribute you may get way more attention than it is convenient.
 
All attributes share importance equally, be it a combat encounter or just doing everyday andventuring stuff. I'd also like to draw attention to the additional 2 stat points that you gain on higher levels: Those were meant as more of a personal development through your adventures, than a sheer bonus. Low level characters not necessarily need the high bonuses Primary Stats provide.
 
It is also worth mentioning that you are not the hero of the story. The group is. There may be that party member that was obnoxious from the start, and even his attitude or views prove to be in perfect contrast of yours (making the journey frustrating for both and not without conflicts); but it so happens that from all the people in the world, that guy has the skills or knowledge to make an invaluable addition to the group. Never forget that most spells can be targeted at others too, and most Enchanted permanents can be traded amongst the party.
 
And again, to re-emphasize another thing: Characters should measure their abilities very carefully when picking confrontations, mainly because by the nature of the combos present ingame you can easily be locked down completely, or OTK'd even in certain matchups.
 
So back to the Strength issue:
 
Moreover, (the heaviest) armour and weapons, which seems to be the sole reason you would ever invest in strength, stop you from casting all those handy-dandy spells. A tank would want to wear heavy armour and a shield, but suddenly doesn't want to because then he won't be able to cast gravity pull to attract everyone towards her. Unless you want me to take off my heavy armour, naked, cast gravity pull, then put my heavy armour back on, which... No. 7 strength is quite a devotion. Let me cast some spells with heavy stuff and shields.

Strength also gives you +damage to your attacks, nothing you should overlook.
 
Armor and shield can be a complementary option if you cannot afford high Dexterity. Weapons may be an option if you don't have access to damaging spells. Summons are all-round meatshields, and may be substitutes for both ends of the spectrum. There are also enchantments that circumvent these things altogether and can create very powerful combinations. But of course, only if you dedicate your character(s) - and combat turns - to such (sometimes cheesy) tactics.
 
At first both E&A and Summoning was allowed for Heavy equipment users, but creatures having their own (and moreover, mostly Natural) DEF and ATK values made these builds extremely overpowered. The status effects that some of the Invocations provide are outright powerful with the added defense or damage Heavy stuff ensures. It is also worth noting that all of your equipment - incuding armor - count as permanents, and can (and in certain matchups, will) be destroyed, so it's not a bad idea to prepare with a "plan B" for such cases. Also note that your inventory should also reflect logical reasoning, as you won't be able to drag around 3 full plates, 5 broadswords and 4 shields (plus all the other stuff) just in case you may need to change.
 
There could be medium armors that only disallow Summoning and, if we had a dodge stat, we could have Light Shields that allow all spellcasting. Bucklers and small shields do not hinder hand or finger movements.

At first (if you remember your "early-access"), there were 3 armor and 2 shield categories, similar like you described, but partly because of the aforementioned reasons, and mainly because of overcomplicating the enchantment tree they were reduced to the current state. Shields should stand somewhere between, but we figured that almost 99% of the time you'll want your hands on an enchanted one, not only for the possible added effects, but for the sole reason that they are categorized as Artifacts - which means they won't hinder you anymore in using any of your elemental abilities, while also preserving your natural defense (from DX), if any. Certain current spell and enchantment combinations can make a Dragon look like a joke, even with their added damage reduction.
 
A small dodge (miss) value can be a working alternative for DEF on shields. Needs to be balanced with the magical ones.
 
 
 
Or we can just add another status effect called Taunted where you're most likely to attack the target that taunted you. From experience, tanks need either an AoE ability, a free action ability with range, or the ability to cause Taunt passively with melee attacks. All of these would probably be from abilities in Gravity, but could fit in many elements through themes like hypnotizing (Aether), charming (Life, Light?), controlling (Aether, Darkness) or manipulating (Darkness, Entropy).

Let's say, like a talent/element-based physical ability tree? That could really be a nice addition, giving character planning another dimension. But in that case, they shouldn't overshadow their elemental couterparts in any way. Currently, the added number of attacks per turn (for smaller weapons), and the increased critical hit chance (for more heavier ones), and attacks of opportunities were meant to fill in the role of the added specialty in physically oriented builds. Think about them as constant Free actions every turn.
 
 
 
Well, I'm allowed to use armors now, but you just blocked off the ability to spell cast while in them, so there's no point in it again. Now I just have a huge fumble chance or, like Frozen said, I can disrobe, cast, and redress. Regardless, the class options I had mentioned earlier are still not viable options in the current system. And I agree, intelligence is extremely more important as a stat because it opens so many options. Current Fighter/Rogue/Archer builds would most be "I hit them with my ___" every turn every combat, and the static numbers mean that wouldn't even be interesting or varied.

While Intelligence (with support from Charisma) does open up a lot of interesting possibilities, being an archmage (or in this case, elementalist) needs great dedication. As great as being a champion warrior. Stat ratings and equipment rules were balanced around this and a bit of realism. And as a human, you (should) have your physical limits. 10% Fumble could prove annoying, but you may hardly notice. 20% is more troublesome, but still manageable; while 30% and over should be a concern for any character. Reaction time could be disadvantageous, but it's really nothing to frown at most of the time. How do you expect to perform anything correctly, if you can hardly move from all the stuff that you're wearing? Light (and Medium) equipment is easily accesible, and is a good middleground for any build, with broad enchantment possibilities.
 
And while dedicated ranged characters do attack once per turn (unless throwing, or under the efects of Adrenaline), they also have the privilege of their damage coming straight and solely from their Proficiency, which means they have a bit wider stat choices to work with.
 
 
 
Lastly, a few words about 'classes':
 
The term Classes were intentionally left out, and were replaced somewhat with Talents. Character creation was meant to be free in terms of concept (and not to limit you in the overused and quite boring Fighter - Rogue - Priest - Mage mindset), with the most appealing limitation being the human factor. You want to be a full time Priest? It's ok, which god do you worship? In what elements does your god represent itself? What are its teachings and prohibitions? You don't necessarily need a Warhammer with a Full Plate to play a proper Priest. You can make a character that's weak and even simple-minded (and has no real affection for magic), but has the faith and tenacity to make him a most prominent Priest. You decide about your profession, it's your choosing - fine tune your attributes so that you can fulfill the role.
 
What I would >really< like is for melee combat and ranged combat to have its own skill sheet/tree, just like enchantment/invocation/summoning. That would pretty much fix the entire problem.

A seperate Physical Skill tree is more and more considered. My only fear is that it may boost physical builds even further in combat efficiency compared to spellcasters with the limited card pool EtG has. I'm very interested in ideas about this one.
 
 
 
Speaking of shields, can I dual-wield shields?

Can you ingame? Apart from that, this is a very situational question.
 
 


 
Everything here is not meant to argue, but to explain why things evolved the way they are currently. I've been working on this concept for almost 2 years now (on and off), and many combat situations were tested to keep this "ripoff" as close to balanced as it can be. But of course that doesn't mean it is without errors and shouldn't be changed for the better. The current system is working, and is balanced in terms of combat provess, but one of the main reason to post it in its present state was to improve it for the better by suggestions and playtesting.
 
Hope I could clear some "development" things up.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 03:27:38 am by Tiko »
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It is here that strange compromises are made and new senses are born."

 

blarg: