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Elements the Game => Report In-game Issues => Topic started by: Arwulf on October 18, 2012, 11:26:12 PM

Title: Card text inconsistencies, Check this out, it helps
Post by: Arwulf on October 18, 2012, 11:26:12 PM
Inconsistencies: What It Says - What It Does

or

Counterintuitive

This thread is to be considered an addition to the 'Not A Bug', 'Confirmed Bugs' and 'Archived Bug' section. In this opening post I will attempt to present an overview of game situations that might occor that are odd, but not really bugs. For a card, card combinations or set of cards to appear here it or they must fulfill any of the following prerequisites:

1) The card or a portion of the card does not do what it says or it does something that is not mentioned on the card;
2) On one card a phrasing results in one result, the same wording on another card does something else;
3) Through the effect of one card general rules of the game are deduced which are countered by the effect of another card.

So, I don't want to report bugs in this section nor suggest improvements; at best, if someone feels the urge to do anything with this thread, it can be used for editing the text on cards to make What It Says more consistent with What It Does or mirror the effect of similar card text. For now I will make a start and will update it later.

I am fully aware this post is not nearly finished; it just takes a lot of time to do. If it any point it proves a useless endouver I will give up  :-* Lets see how it fares:

Immortality




And creatures with Immortality:

-Immortality makes it so creatures with it cannot be targeted but are also not effected by general effects such as cards that say 'each creature'. Cards such as the following also DO NOT influence immortal creatures:



Somehow, though, creatures with Immortality ARE effected by



It turns out that immortal/immaterial creatures ARE effected by shields; flavourwise this is attributed to them materializing to do damage, their one weakness when they interact with the physical world.


Lobotomy




Lobotomising removes abilities from creatures. However, for well, although difficult, but well documented reason it does not remove




0 HP Creatures


All creatures immediately die at 0 HitPoints, but not



It dies at the end of the turn it is played. If for some reason its HP is raised and lowered to 0 at a later point, it dies immediately, though


Copying creatures




PU is supposed to give you an EXACT copy of the targeted creature. If you copy an mutant creature strange things happen though. Look in the Wiki for the long story.



Deja Vu makes a copy of itself including all the buffs it had received; what is not mentioned, though, is that it loses its copying mechanism, both in the original as in the copy.


Reverse Time and Eternity wording




RT's wording might be interpreted (and was by me at first) as meaning that the targeted creature is transformed into the card that is on top of its owner's deck. I always just assumed it failed if it was not another creature  :-\
Compare with the wording on



Contrary to what it says, in fact it puts the card on top and not in its owner's deck


Sundial




From reading the card there is no reason to assume it disappears at the end of the turn after you played it. In fact, it has an ability that also occurs on other permanents:



These cards do not disappear after one turn.

The following cards state clearly how long they remain in play and/or have no remaining utility:




'For each 10  :rainbow quanta in your possession...'




Above cards all round up; that is, up till every 10 of the relevant quanta results in one 'count' (1-10 is 1x the amount of damage, 11-20 is 2x, etc.)



The Sword of Flame however only increases the damage in increments of rounded down quanta reserves. To be honest, it adds quanta to your pool at end of turn before dealing damage though. BUT STILL!!  :P


Stacking bonusses




Simply said, multiples don't stack, oddly enough, although the card says +x/+x.

On Arsenic it says that the damage is cumulative, so mentioning the reach of the effect is not out of bounds.




Poison/Infect


Figure this one out for yourselves. Poison/Infect/Inflate  ?_?




That's it for now. I tried to go through an element at the time, but cross-reference is unavoidable. I only covered three or four of the elements with the more obvious WIS/WID's I could think of; in some time from now I will do another round of cards. Also, I have to be careful for this thread not to become just a copy of one of the above-mentioned threads.

Greetz



Yes, I GET the reference =)

Small Update

Hand protection


Sanctuary protects you from the following cards:



But did you know there is one other card it is effective against that you would not necessarily expect?



Rebirth




First of all, if Phoenix is killed by your opponent, you can't resurrect it in your next turn. You will have to wait for one more turn. This seems plausible as otherwise it would seem too hard to get rid of Phoenix.

However, if Phoenix dies at the end of YOUR turn (say through infection) it also cannot be revived in your next turn. In short, Ash can be rebuild to a Phoenix only in the second turn that you have controlled Ash since the beginning of your turn. Yes, I understand why that was not typed out on the card. :fire

However, if Phoenix dies to you playing

you WILL be able to rekindle it in your next turn.
Title: Re: Inconsistencies: WIS - WID
Post by: Elbirn on October 18, 2012, 11:30:13 PM
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,4461.msg44100.html#msg44100 (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,4461.msg44100.html#msg44100)

Sorry to take the wind out of your sails, friend. :/
Title: Re: Inconsistencies: WIS - WID
Post by: Absol on October 18, 2012, 11:31:31 PM
You might want to change the title into something that shows the problem lies on the wording. We can put this in GS&F afterwards.
Indeed, it's about time to change the wording on many cards.

Posting to keep track.
Title: Re: Inconsistencies: WIS - WID
Post by: choongmyoung on October 18, 2012, 11:38:31 PM
Immortality


And creatures with Immortality:

-Immortality makes it so creatures with it cannot be targeted but are also not effected by general effects such as cards that say 'each creature'. Cards such as the following also DO NOT influence immortal creatures:



Poison?
You meant Plague right?
Title: Re: Inconsistencies: WIS - WID
Post by: Arwulf on October 18, 2012, 11:41:16 PM
Corrected
Title: Re: Inconsistencies: WIS - WID
Post by: Arwulf on October 18, 2012, 11:53:07 PM
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,4461.msg44100.html#msg44100 (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,4461.msg44100.html#msg44100)

Sorry to take the wind out of your sails, friend. :/

No problem. I somewhat suspected such a thread might already exist. Since I could not find it after spending many hours reading up in the forums and the wiki, I thought it might either be outdated or might approach it from another angle.

Still, seeing the original post is from 2010 and that it attempts to indicate just about EVERY mechanic that occurs (and consists of 13 pages of comments that do not seem to all be integrated in the OP, I think I might still do something useful with this thread.

Might just be bullheadedness  8)

And yes, this topic focusses mostly on the wording of the card and how (new) players might intuitively play (against) cards based solely on their text. To create a list of discontinuities one cannot avoid looking closer at paradoxical game interactions.

As main focus point let me give you the example that triggers me most. That is, pisses me off : p



Also increases your current HP for the same amount as it increases your max HP.



Does NOT decrease the current HP for the same amount as it increases your max HP.
Title: Re: Inconsistencies: WIS - WID
Post by: furballdn on October 19, 2012, 12:26:42 AM
Immortal creatures are affected by shields because they thematically phase into existence when attacking and so get affected by shields. I would ask why you didn't include how sky blitz doesn't affect immortality but SoFre does.

Adrenaline is a status effect like poison, not an active ability, so lobo does not remove it.

The check for if a creature dies only occurs if it is targetted with something or after it attacks.

Cloak and sundial both use "for X turns"

Sword of flame? wow...the cards themselves do not say whether rounded up or down, but it is most likely for balance (would you like a bolt that is useless until you had 10 quanta?)

Nightfall and Eclipse do not stack for balancing (besides the hp increase glitch)

Nothing wrong with the wording, just different kinds of wording for the same thing.
Title: Re: Inconsistencies: WIS - WID
Post by: Tirear on October 19, 2012, 12:59:14 AM
Lobotomy: i would say that the inconsistency is that it removes momentum, not that it doesn't remove adrenaline/GP. This is just nitpicking though.

TU: Dive/skyblitz will have the doubled current attack copied, but not the state of diving, meaning the copy's attack will not revert at the end of the turn. If the copy undergoes a dive/skyblitz itself, its attack will revert to the same value as the original (plus any permanent buffs it has received) at the end of that turn.
Copies of mutants gain a new random ability, and their attack and defense are set to the original's full attack and defense + 0-3 (determined separately for attack and defense). The obvious effect of this is that copied mutants get progressively stronger while receiving varying abilities. The less obvious effect is that damage is not copied, nor are the temporary attack gains from steam/dive/skyblitz.

Bolts: The cards actually round down, they just recieve one free 'count' of damage. The difference is when your quanta is a multiple of 10 - there is no decimal to round, but they still receive more damage than you might expect.
The bolt-spells all have their strength based on your quanta before paying the cost, but stone skin has its strength determined by your quanta after paying the cost.

Poison/infect: For further confusion, infect is the name of malignant cell's ability, which has nothing to do with poison. Also seen when singularity copies itself.


The check for if a creature dies only occurs if it is targetted with something or after it attacks.
False. The check for attack/defense over 499 happens anytime you target a creature, meaning harmless spells like PU and SoR will reset it. The check for 0 hp only happens when taking damage or attacking, meaning you can fractal sparks without losing the original.
Title: Re: Inconsistencies: WIS - WID
Post by: furballdn on October 19, 2012, 01:33:24 AM
Momentum is an active skill as well as status.

Yes, you are correct about the 0hp part.
Title: Re: Inconsistencies: WIS - WID
Post by: Fosius on October 19, 2012, 08:41:06 AM
Infect/poison/inflate are three separate abilities though.

poison allows you to poison the enemy and causes poisoning when devoured.
infect allows you to poison a creature
inflate allows you to poison a creature and also causes poisoning when devoured.
Title: Re: Inconsistencies: WIS - WID
Post by: choongmyoung on October 19, 2012, 10:03:42 AM
Infect/poison/inflate are three separate abilities though.

poison allows you to poison the enemy and causes poisoning when devoured.
infect allows you to poison a creature
inflate allows you to poison a creature and also causes poisoning when devoured.

poison: +1 poison counter to opponent
infect: sacrifice the creature and poison target creature
inflate there is no ability named "inflate". Toadfish has skill "infection".
infection: poison target creature

and other abilities with poison:
venom: +1 poison counter if successfully attacked
deadly venom: +2 poison counter if successfully attacked
neurotoxin: +1 poison counter if successfully attacked, +1 poison counter per card play when affected by neurotoxin
plague: sacrifice the creature and poison every enemy creature, remove invisibility

cause poisoning when devoured = "poisonous" passive ability.
Title: Re: Inconsistencies: WIS - WID
Post by: drolly on October 19, 2012, 11:32:54 PM
Aaand ... another thread with a nice idea which already contains some nice and solid work :) So far I haven't known that Parallel Universe + Deja Vu won't work as a deck strategy yet, thanks for mentioning it.
Might just be bullheadedness  8)
Either it isn't or I'm bullheaded, too ::)

As main focus point let me give you the example that triggers me most. That is, pisses me off : p
- snip -
Add Stone Skin to the SoD/SoV example and include it in the OP.

Poison/infect: For further confusion, infect is the name of malignant cell's ability, which has nothing to do with poison. Also seen when singularity copies itself.
Too lazy to check at the moment, but isn't Cell's ability called infest?

Some other random things I've immediately thought of:
Title: Re: Inconsistencies: WIS - WID
Post by: Cheesy111 on October 20, 2012, 01:25:23 AM
Sundial sets all creature's attacks to 0.  It does not stop them from attacking.


I thought I had found an awesome way to stop Adrenastave healing....
Title: Re: Inconsistencies: WIS - WID
Post by: choongmyoung on October 20, 2012, 07:15:15 AM
Sundial sets all creature's attacks to 0.  It does not stop them from attacking.


I thought I had found an awesome way to stop Adrenastave healing....

Sundials sets all creature's attack to 0, mechanically yes.
But be careful, Adren do not think the creature's attack is zero.
For example, 15ATK adren creature gain only one additional turn under Sundial, not four.

And, staff's "regenerate" skill is activated every TURN, not every ATTACK. It heals you even it's stopped(frozen, delayed).
Title: Re: Inconsistencies: WIS - WID
Post by: Arwulf on October 21, 2012, 01:11:40 PM
First of all, thank you for all the input. Even now I have received enough suggestions to have my work cut out for me for the next couple of weeks. I will reply to each of your suggestions in due time, I noticed members are already correcting/editing each other's suggestions as well.

It will be an endeavor in itself to stay on-topic, as I would not like to overlap with Bugs/Mechanics (too much) but instead focus mostly on how one might (mis)read cards in relation to how they work out when actually played in different situations. I have thought about this for some time and I think the best context scenario I can come up with is this:

Optional:

A player who owns all the cards available in Elements, who has read all the cards, is familiar with the basic rules of the game is deciding on a set of decks. The player has access to the wiki and to the bugs/not a bug list. BUT, this player has never played a single game of Elements. Also, this player has only one point in time to make these decks. He or she has to build all their decks before playing so the element of 'trial and error' is eliminated from his or her deckbuilding skills.

This thread aspires to be the missing link for this particular player; it tells about the exceptions, loopholes and variations in game mechanics. After reading this thread (and the above mentioned threads) the player should no longer encounter any surprises about mechanics and be able to build decks that do not fail on grounds of unforeseen exceptions.

Sort of  8)

Title: Re: Inconsistencies: WIS - WID
Post by: choongmyoung on October 21, 2012, 01:15:13 PM
First of all, thank you for all the input. Even now I have received enough suggestions to have my work cut out for me for the next couple of weeks. I will reply to each of your suggestions in due time, I noticed members are already correcting/editing each other's suggestions as well.

It will be an endeavor in itself to stay on-topic, as I would not like to overlap with Bugs/Mechanics (too much) but instead focus mostly on how one might (mis)read cards in relation to how they work out when actually played in different situations. I have thought about this for some time and I think the best context scenario I can come up with is this:

Optional:

A player who owns all the cards available in Elements, who has read all the cards, is familiar with the basic rules of the game is deciding on a set of decks. The player has access to the wiki and to the bugs/not a bug list. BUT, this player has never played a single game of Elements. Also, this player has only one point in time to make these decks. He or she has to build all their decks before playing so the element of 'trial and error' is eliminated from his or her deckbuilding skills.

This thread aspires to be the missing link for this particular player; it tells about the exceptions, loopholes and variations in game mechanics. After reading this thread (and the above mentioned threads) the player should no longer encounter any surprises about mechanics and be able to build decks that do not fail on grounds of unforeseen exceptions.

Sort of  8)


Downward capability version of this (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,4461.msg44100.html)?
Title: Re: Inconsistencies: WIS - WID
Post by: Arwulf on October 21, 2012, 03:26:05 PM
I am not sure what 'downward capability' means, but yes, somewhat like the thread you linked but then more precise and with card images. Mostly, though, it focuses specifically on the card text.

From the linked thread entries such as the following have no place here for various reasons:


- "Supernova costs 2 :entropy and generates just as much" - can be deduced from the card itself



- "Empathic Bond will heal you for every creature on your side, even if its frozen, poisoned,... You will be healed as your creatures attack." - Does not conflict in any way with how the card is written or how game mechanics function.


- "Hitting a creature with 5 or less hp with Rage Potion will kill it." - Obviously


Title: Re: Inconsistencies: WIS - WID
Post by: pulli23 on October 22, 2012, 11:02:24 AM
I found parallel universe weird when targeting airborne creatures who's airborne have been removed. Maybe the actual weirdness is with the removal of airborne (they should keep the "airborne" ability, but receive a status "webbed").
Title: Re: Card text inconsistencies, Check this out, it helps
Post by: salox on March 01, 2013, 12:00:59 PM
as suggested by Tirear, I'm posting this issue here, about the wording of fog shield:

today in pvp1, I was pointed out that it made miss a weapon, but the card says creatures.....

I said that it's been working like this forever, and actually I think it's the way it has to work, but just the wording isn't correct

hope they fix the wording :P
Title: Re: Card text inconsistencies, Check this out, it helps
Post by: UndeadSpider1990 on June 10, 2013, 12:15:35 PM
I found parallel universe weird when targeting airborne creatures who's airborne have been removed. Maybe the actual weirdness is with the removal of airborne (they should keep the "airborne" ability, but receive a status "webbed").
Deja Vu and PU do not copy the airborne status.

In other words, if you use 'Web' to remove airborne on a creature, its copy will regain airborne.
Title: Re: Inconsistencies: WIS - WID
Post by: UndeadSpider1990 on June 10, 2013, 12:21:07 PM
Immortal creatures are affected by shields because they thematically phase into existence when attacking and so get affected by shields.

Purely thematically speaking, how come Phase Monsters can't figure out a Phase Shield?
And why is a Phase Spider incapable of it at all?
:P
Title: Re: Card text inconsistencies, Check this out, it helps
Post by: Zergva on July 22, 2013, 10:24:45 PM
Why does SoSac is cumulative? As like if the 1. SoSac swap the damage-heal, the 2. should heal 48 life and swap it back, so nothing happens...



Title: Re: Card text inconsistencies, Check this out, it helps
Post by: Submachine on July 22, 2013, 10:38:21 PM
It misses from the Original Post that Sanctuary also protects you from the opponent's Shards of Bravery.
Title: Re: Card text inconsistencies, Check this out, it helps
Post by: Gocubbies1212 on July 23, 2013, 06:17:22 AM
(http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/9619/h6v.png)

the creatures that the skull buckler kills turn into ELITE skeletons
Title: Re: Card text inconsistencies, Check this out, it helps
Post by: Calindu on July 23, 2013, 07:26:55 AM
the creatures that the skull buckler kills turn into ELITE skeletons

Wrong, IIRC, only upgraded creatures turn into Elite Skeletons.
blarg: Tirear