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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg255129#msg255129
« Reply #72 on: January 23, 2011, 01:04:37 pm »
I am starting to wonder why I am coincidentally surrounded by amoral determinists and people of faith. Why are there so few in between?
Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on the truth) I have no compelling arguments that are convincing and effective from the amoral perspective.

You were fun to talk with Daxx.
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Offline doublecross

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg255461#msg255461
« Reply #73 on: January 23, 2011, 08:28:54 pm »
I would like to think I am neither.
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johannhowitzer

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg256847#msg256847
« Reply #74 on: January 25, 2011, 05:29:22 am »
Determinism/free will is such a tough question, though.  We're "inside" our free will, and it sure feels like we have free will, but then all this molecular science tells us we can predict stuff based on how stuff is now... including, theoretically, in the human brain.

I think my stance on the issue is blissful apathy.  If I have free will, I'm gonna go use it.  If I don't, I'm gonna think I'm using it anyway.  My decisions will still be my decisions.
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Offline Neopergoss

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg257090#msg257090
« Reply #75 on: January 25, 2011, 07:13:34 pm »
I agree. Everything we know seems to rule out free will, per se. This is only a problem if we let it be one. Sure, our decisions may be determined by things outside of our control. But you can still weigh decisions and make choices. Just because choices are inevitable doesn't mean they aren't still choices. And really, unless we're being forced to do something, it's not as though it's "unfree." "Free will" vs. determinism is a bad way of framing our reality, if you ask me.

I like pasta. I choose to eat it often. You could say I'm "forced" to like pasta and eat it by biology or social conditioning, but I would respond by saying "Who cares?"
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johannhowitzer

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg257270#msg257270
« Reply #76 on: January 25, 2011, 10:21:16 pm »
It's also a chicken-and-egg.  I like French, and for a while I've been wanting to learn to speak it better, so I go out and sign up for a French class, which shows some initiative.  You could say my biological makeup predisposed me to 1) be interested in French, and 2) to be self-motivated enough to do something about it, but what does that mean?  Where do I end and my atoms begin?  I am me.  I make decisions.  Whether those decisions are guided or even predetermined by forces outside of my control is really useless to debate.  If I'm a robot, I sure am choosing to have fun being a robot.
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Offline doublecross

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg257337#msg257337
« Reply #77 on: January 25, 2011, 11:40:29 pm »
Well, we do actually know the answer to the chicken and the egg question.

Clearly, it was the egg.

The chicken has the same genetics as the egg it came out of, but the egg doesn't have the same genetics as the creature that laid it.

Thus, there has to have been a chicken egg laid by a not-chicken, before the first chicken.


not chicken egg> Not-chicken > chicken egg > chicken > chicken egg > chicken...
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg257344#msg257344
« Reply #78 on: January 25, 2011, 11:51:29 pm »
Quote from: doublecross on January 25, 2011, 11:40:29 pm
Well, we do actually know the answer to the chicken and the egg question.

Clearly, it was the egg.

The chicken has the same genetics as the egg it came out of, but the egg doesn't have the same genetics as the creature that laid it.

Thus, there has to have been a chicken egg laid by a not-chicken, before the first chicken.


not chicken egg> Not-chicken > chicken egg > chicken > chicken egg > chicken...
Not quite correct
A chicken egg is either defined as the egg from which emerges a chicken (eeg1) or the egg a chicken lays (egg2)
egg1>chicken>egg2
The question is which definition to use: egg1 or egg2
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"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
"Nothing exists that cannot be countered." -OldTrees on indirect counters
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Offline doublecross

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg257360#msg257360
« Reply #79 on: January 26, 2011, 12:14:26 am »
So, either way, we have solved the problem, and now, all that remains is which definition we choose.
Either way, it is no longer a riddle, but instead an argument over semantics.
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