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Offline northcity4Topic starter

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Reasons for believing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48687.msg1062688#msg1062688
« on: April 22, 2013, 06:23:15 am »
I don't think most people actually have a logical reason for believing in 'god.' To go even further, I will say their 'experiences' and witnessed events were not what they thought they were.

I have many things to talk to about, but first:

If you agree/disagree/somewhat either way...please say so...but please...also say why. I am interested in keeping a conversation going.
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Offline Naesala

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Re: Reasons for believing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48687.msg1062696#msg1062696
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2013, 07:28:25 am »
If you discount our experience and witnessed events then what evidence would sate you? Suppose i discounted your (and all other scientists') experiences and witnessed events for all things scientific. You'd seem just as silly as we may seem to you.

The only logical argument that I know of for believing in god is Pascal's Wager. Everything else is personal belief, experiences, and what we witness in the world all of which you say you will not count.

Also, saying you have "many things to talk about" but that you'll "save them for later" is annoying to me personally, don't know how others feel about that. In general, I say you should say everything relevant on your mind when you start a thread.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2013, 07:30:38 am by Naesala »
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Offline northcity4Topic starter

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Re: Reasons for believing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48687.msg1062823#msg1062823
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2013, 08:36:30 pm »
Here is one example:

You say you had what christians call a 'mountain top experience,' but was that God or just your hormones going off?

The difference that scientists will argue to your first paragraph is that their reasoning can be done with things that are tangible. The religious person: why do they believe it was God who gave them the experience? Was it because they have logical reasoning that there really is no other way to explain it? It is what their pastor told them? How they were brought up?

These are real issues people are realizing in their beliefs which is why tons are leaving religion in the world today. The basis for religion being true was based on how they have been brought up. Not real critical thinking.
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Offline Naesala

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Re: Reasons for believing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48687.msg1062837#msg1062837
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2013, 09:10:55 pm »
I like how you've hijacked your own thread in 2 posts and gone another direction with it, instead of asking why believe just making borad statements about christians and not waiting for any person to give their reasons.

1)You say you had what christians call a 'mountain top experience,' but was that God or just your hormones going off?

2)The difference that scientists will argue to your first paragraph is that their reasoning can be done with things that are tangible. The religious person: why do they believe it was God who gave them the experience? Was it because they have logical reasoning that there really is no other way to explain it? It is what their pastor told them? How they were brought up?

3)These are real issues people are realizing in their beliefs which is why tons are leaving religion in the world today. The basis for religion being true was based on how they have been brought up. Not real critical thinking.

1) It is based on what was witnessed and experienced. There is not sufficient data to say either way necessarily. However, their have been, for many people, experiences and things that we have witnessed that "prove" god to us. if you're going to argue every incident for every person as being "hormones" or something else, then there is no way a persons individual experiences could be measured. For comparison, what if I claimed that all experiences with some kind of drug were just hormones going off and that the drug didn't actually do what it claimed?

2)My witnessed events and experiences may be just as tangible as your events and experiences. You discounted all of them before you were even told what they were. For all you know, I saw god appear and turn my television into a rock and back again and had several people with me to confirm it happened (not saying I did, just trying to get a point across. Dont discount evidence before hearing it. Your questions, in order: Because it seemed most plausible to the person based on the input they received at the time. God isn't bound by logic, to make arguments against god's existence because he isn't logical is illogical itself. Irrelevant, we're talking personal experiences. Irrelevant, we're still talking personal experiences.

3) You discount, once again, all personal experiences, research, and analysis of christians. You lump all christians into a blindly faithful mass who follow their priests without question. You do realize there are entire college courses devoted to studying the bible, deciding what it means and whats true and what's metaphor? As well as many christians, especially today in such a science driven world, question their beliefs regularly and think hard on them before continuing to believe it as true.
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Re: Reasons for believing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48687.msg1062857#msg1062857
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2013, 10:17:15 pm »
God isn't bound by logic, to make arguments against god's existence because he isn't logical is illogical itself.
This argument is self contradictory. The only way to conclude that logical arguments don't apply to God is to apply a logical argument to God.
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Offline northcity4Topic starter

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Re: Reasons for believing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48687.msg1062913#msg1062913
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2013, 12:29:21 am »
Naesla your making a lot of assumptions right now. I didn't discredit my thread or take it in a different direction.

All I am saying is: people's reasons for believing are not always good ones (true statement).

Secondly, as for your drug example:

1) you should test you 'experiences.' What if you thought it was God, but never had the experience again?

2) We can actually test if the drug did what it did. That is the cool thing about your response: we can actually know for 100%.

as in #1...I am not so sure. Even if I had a dream or awake experience with 'God,' I would be questioning all other avenues.
The reason for this post: have people explored any other reasons or do they just accept it was God? If they accept it is God, are there any other reasons keeping them from exploring elsewhere for the reason for their 'experience?' since we are on the topic of experience.

BTW, to add on to trees' statement: that is a philosophical debate which I would like to not get into. Another example would be is God bound by morals? If you want to talk about it, my PM is open =)
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Offline Naesala

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Re: Reasons for believing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48687.msg1062923#msg1062923
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2013, 12:41:51 am »
I think you make as many assumptions as i do, if not more, but would rather not get into a fight about that.

I agree with your statement. 1) I agree, but you should also not just completely discount an experience. I don't assume it was God who did something. I think about it seriously before coming to that conclusion. 2) Eventually, all science and math falls to axioms, something you have to just accept as true. I believe God would have to be considered on the same level as an axiom. Also, though this is an off shoot of the discussion, you can't 100% prove god, part of the whole "have faith in me" part of his existance.

I think it helps now that you have gotten to the -real- question. It isn't "Why do people believe in God?" It's "Why do people believe in God instead of alternate explanations?"

I'd rather not get into a PM discussion. Suffice to say I personally do not think God is bound by anything: words, logic, ideas, morals, etc.
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Offline Fireleaf

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Re: Reasons for believing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48687.msg1062944#msg1062944
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2013, 01:10:04 am »
Sorry to just jump into this, but an axiom is something considered to be self-evident, that is obviously true. Take for example Euclid's postulates. One of them is that all right angles are equal to each other. Another is that it is possible to draw a straight line from one point to any other point. In my humble opinion, the existence of God is not self-evident, and thus cannot be considered to be an axiom.
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Offline northcity4Topic starter

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Re: Reasons for believing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48687.msg1062945#msg1062945
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2013, 01:10:59 am »
Thanks...you have helped me clarify me the thread: 'I think it helps now that you have gotten to the -real- question. It isn't "Why do people believe in God?" It's "Why do people believe in God instead of alternate explanations?"'

There are many reasons.
If I may, I am not trying to attack, but rather go over one explanation people make.
1) some people say they believe in God because it is a 'safe bet.' In other words, you might as well believe as it can do no harm and if God does exist, you get to go to heaven. So, it's a win-win situation.

My issue with this: you don't really believe in God/don't really love God. You reasons for believing are completely hopeful and have no logical ground really.

Comments/remarks?
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Offline northcity4Topic starter

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Re: Reasons for believing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48687.msg1062949#msg1062949
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2013, 01:12:27 am »
Sorry to just jump into this, but an axiom is something considered to be self-evident, that is obviously true. Take for example Euclid's postulates. One of them is that all right angles are equal to each other. Another is that it is possible to draw a straight line from one point to any other point. In my humble opinion, the existence of God is not self-evident, and thus cannot be considered to be an axiom.

I agree, but since we are in a religious thread...I am curious on how people will accept that.
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Offline Fireleaf

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Re: Reasons for believing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48687.msg1062953#msg1062953
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2013, 01:19:39 am »
Sorry to just jump into this, but an axiom is something considered to be self-evident, that is obviously true. Take for example Euclid's postulates. One of them is that all right angles are equal to each other. Another is that it is possible to draw a straight line from one point to any other point. In my humble opinion, the existence of God is not self-evident, and thus cannot be considered to be an axiom.

I agree, but since we are in a religious thread...I am curious on how people will accept that.

Some people may believe that God's existence is self-evident, but that is a position is very difficult to defend. My point is simply that comparing religion to science in this way is not reasonable.
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Offline Naesala

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Re: Reasons for believing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48687.msg1062976#msg1062976
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2013, 02:28:54 am »
Thanks...you have helped me clarify me the thread: 'I think it helps now that you have gotten to the -real- question. It isn't "Why do people believe in God?" It's "Why do people believe in God instead of alternate explanations?"'

There are many reasons.
If I may, I am not trying to attack, but rather go over one explanation people make.
1) some people say they believe in God because it is a 'safe bet.' In other words, you might as well believe as it can do no harm and if God does exist, you get to go to heaven. So, it's a win-win situation.

My issue with this: you don't really believe in God/don't really love God. You reasons for believing are completely hopeful and have no logical ground really.

Comments/remarks?
Glad to help clarify things ^_^

What you gave there is some of the grounds for pascal's Wager. It isn't the best reasoning out their, but it is a starting point for conversations I usually have with atheists. I do not believe that it alone is a reason to believe in god, though.
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