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Daxx

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Re: IF your religion was proved to be incorrect, how would you change. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12675.msg163176#msg163176
« Reply #48 on: September 22, 2010, 10:45:59 pm »
My point was that I had no reason at the time to "want" any of those things to be true.
Whether you wanted them to be true isn't particularly relevant, I think. It might be if there were a relationship between religiosity and propensity to hallucinate. Anecdotal evidence from my personal experience suggests that experiencing these things is much more likely to be attributed to self-delusion based off interpretation through your prior cultural frame of reference, as is the case with alien abductions, witches abducting people and incubus/succubus "attacks".

Actually, scientific research on the subject generally says the opposite. More religious persons appear to be less prone to such delusions.
(snip)
You'll have to fill me in, I don't see how any of those sources you provided support your claim.

The argument of the invisible iunicorn was made as a response to a specific argument, namely Bertrand Russel's Teapot argument. The point is the analogies used (teapot orbiting Mars, invisible unicorn etc.) are invariably flawed in such a way as to bias the outcome. Whatever analogy is used is invariably something no one has ever reported seeing any evidence for.
The analogy is meant to demonstrate a logical point, which is that unsupported claims should be rejected. You can claim that there is evidence for your invisible friend, but the fact of the matter is that there has been no actual proof for the existence of God that withstands any sort of rational method of testing.

This is nowhere near true of religion. MOST religious persons report having seen/experienced at least some sort of phenomena. Even many atheists report "strange events".
Even assuming that your claim is true (which I dispute), these phenomena usually have much more plausible explanations that don't require invoking the existence of a god or gods.

Let's do a thought experiment. Figures vary, but it's generally accepted that between 2/3 and 3/4 of the human population. Let's use the conservative estimate at 2/3. Then let's assume 80% of those people report some sort of "phenomena". Now let's assume half of those are simple mistakes, reading to much into things, seeing things where there really aren't any etc. Now assume half of the remainder are flat-out falsehoods, people lying to get attention or some-such.  That still leaves 130 million testimonies you're simply ignoring, at a conservative estimate.
But that doesn't prove the existence of the supernatural. That proves that X number of people have seen things. But as we already know, the brain is particularly prone to hallucination and the human mind is not particularly well equipped against pattern bias.

I could use the same argument to say that China doesn't exist since I can't afford to fly there. Never mind that millions of people have seen China.
It is possible to test the existence of China. It is not possible to test for the existence of the supernatural. In addition, there is far more (and direct) evidence suggesting that China exists than God does. Furthermore, the extraordinariness of the claim is nowhere near of the same magnitude.

You can't say "argument ad populum" in this case because because argument ad populum applies to things people think not to whether or not they've experienced something.
Actually, it does, and that just won't fly, sorry. People's experiences are just as vulnerable to perception as everything else.

Offline ratcharmer

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Re: IF your religion was proved to be incorrect, how would you change. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12675.msg164365#msg164365
« Reply #49 on: September 24, 2010, 10:48:44 pm »
on "argument ad populum":

So if someone commits a crime and seventy people saw it, would you then say that none of those seventy people should be allowed to testify at the trial because it's "argument ad populum"? Or is it, for some reason I've apparently missed, allowable to discard the testimonies of millions of people, but not seventy?

A single testimony is not generally considered strong evidence, since people are often mistaken. But many testimonies that corroborate one another? When those testifying had no chance to check their stories with one another? Occam's razor is getting pretty sharp.

On me not being religious at the time of my experiences:

The orignal claim by Scaredgirl was "That's actually something that might explain your weird experiences: people sometimes see things they want to see. It's a very common psychological phenomenon."

Therefore if I didn't want to see those things then that statement doesn't apply. If there is another way I could have imagined such things please explain it.

On the articles:
Were you able to get the full text or just the abstracts? You have to read them pretty carefully to find it.

On a more general note:
Can we move both debates to one thread? I keep going to respond on the wrong thread.

I'll post a reply in the other thread when I get back

Sengiratolom

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Re: IF your religion was proved to be incorrect, how would you change. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12675.msg173936#msg173936
« Reply #50 on: October 10, 2010, 10:15:26 am »
on "argument ad populum":

So if someone commits a crime and seventy people saw it, would you then say that none of those seventy people should be allowed to testify at the trial because it's "argument ad populum"? Or is it, for some reason I've apparently missed, allowable to discard the testimonies of millions of people, but not seventy?

A single testimony is not generally considered strong evidence, since people are often mistaken. But many testimonies that corroborate one another? When those testifying had no chance to check their stories with one another? Occam's razor is getting pretty sharp.

On me not being religious at the time of my experiences:

The orignal claim by Scaredgirl was "That's actually something that might explain your weird experiences: people sometimes see things they want to see. It's a very common psychological phenomenon."

Therefore if I didn't want to see those things then that statement doesn't apply. If there is another way I could have imagined such things please explain it.

On the articles:
Were you able to get the full text or just the abstracts? You have to read them pretty carefully to find it.

On a more general note:
Can we move both debates to one thread? I keep going to respond on the wrong thread.

I'll post a reply in the other thread when I get back
If 70 people saw a crime being commited, its not only them testifying that the crime happend, there is also proof that it happened, as (in the case of theft) the object is missing, if the object was indoors there are traces of forced entry, fingerprints (if the thief didn't wear gloves), toolmarks and alot of other evidence that the crime happened + that the described person was indeed near that crimescene.

In the example of someone telling he saw a pink animal, while multiple people that are at that location did not see it, the person saying he saw that pink animal is  "seeing things" as in being delusional, as there is no proof of that aledged animal to be there.

To put religious text into this, the bible and other texts like it often contain a small number of people that suposedly are being contacted by a deity, being told what to do, and what to say to others.

In this they are the same as any religious/cult/sect/shamanistic or druidic mediums, they say they have been adressed by that deity, and that others have to believe their word on that, and act as they are told to.

Those "shaman" as they are called in some primite tribes perform strange rituals/tell strange stories and as people fear/are impressed by the unknown, they start to believe in what that shaman is telling them and start to mimic that persons behaviour, similar to what a herd would do if a dominant animal starts doing strange things.

In what way are those shaman different from that single person saying he saw a flying green octopus?

They all claim to have experienced some unlogical occurance which they have no proof for, they expect others to believe them and those that do, make the shaman feel important.

Since mankind is nothing more then an ape evolution, and often survived by mimicing other apes behaviour, some of those who didn't believe the "flying green octopus" man, start to join his followers due to the "hey so many ppl believe him, maybe it is true". In other words, herd behaviour + ignorance create followers.

Those followers tell others about the amazing flying green octupus guy ("fgog" from now on), and ask them to join them, some do some dont, so that fgog has an ever growing flok of irrathional and illogical, often delusional believers  surrounding him, most of which end up tell that fgogs ramblings to their offspring and say its the truth, the brainwashed offspring tells that to others, making the flok grow even more.

Fgog, now a "mighty" person gets older and eventually dies of old age, the fgog followers proceed to mourne for that persons death, and continue to distribute his words as the "truth", generations of brainwashed offspring later, no one is around that knew fgog, but they all believe in the written down, often altered, stories about him, resulting in thousands of fgog followers who know/believe that those stories are true, and that anyone who state the oposite is blasphemous.

ergo: fgog=shaman=founder of a religion
Religion= mass brainwashed acception of rathional void, discrimination "those who believe are better then non believers, only those who believe have certain rights", control over believers, who are "forced" to undergo some rituals and are looked down upon if they dont.

my 2 cents to this

Offline ratcharmer

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Re: IF your religion was proved to be incorrect, how would you change. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12675.msg177101#msg177101
« Reply #51 on: October 15, 2010, 06:59:58 pm »
A few quick notes:

@Daytripper: there actually are several occurrences in the Bible of people returning from the dead as an apparition of some form or another to give a message to the living. Examples include Jesus, Mosses, Elijah and Lazarus.

@Sengiratolom: Fingerprints alone are not proof. Neither is the fact that a stolen item is missing. Nor is DNA evidence. Nor is a witness testimony. Nor is the second testimony.  Each of these things is a piece of evidence, and when all taken together they consist of proof beyond any reasonable doubt. Witness testimonies alone don't prove God exists, but they do show that there's reason to suspect He (or she/they/it if you prefer) might exist.

Back to the OP:

I realized the other day that in my initial response I left out a possibility. It is entirely feasible theat one could be shown that their own beliefs are irrefutably false, but not in a way that proves someone else's true.

Suppose there was a logical argument that could absolutely show that it is impossible for God not to exist (if you're atheist) or that your specific religion was logically impossible (if you're theist)?

What then?

No really, what then?

I'm not really sure myself.

 I suppose I'd have to "start over", as it were, from the very beginning of my reasoning in choosing a religion, and re-check all of the arguments. Basically just go back and try to see where I went wrong the first time and try to figure out what conclusion I should've ended at. I might have some bias here towards beliefs similar to the ones I already have, but I don't think I can really say for certain.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?


Re: IF your religion was proved to be incorrect, how would you change. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12675.msg177314#msg177314
« Reply #52 on: October 16, 2010, 12:55:37 am »
I realized the other day that in my initial response I left out a possibility. It is entirely feasible theat one could be shown that their own beliefs are irrefutably false, but not in a way that proves someone else's true.

Suppose there was a logical argument that could absolutely show that it is impossible for God not to exist (if you're atheist) or that your specific religion was logically impossible (if you're theist)?

What then?

No really, what then?

I'm not really sure myself.

 I suppose I'd have to "start over", as it were, from the very beginning of my reasoning in choosing a religion, and re-check all of the arguments. Basically just go back and try to see where I went wrong the first time and try to figure out what conclusion I should've ended at. I might have some bias here towards beliefs similar to the ones I already have, but I don't think I can really say for certain.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?
I didn't think of this when I wrote the question. Glad you've put enough thought into it to interpret it this way though.
Personally, I think it would be hard for me just to 'not believe' in anything. I think eventually, the church/group/ect would fall apart. However, people need that bond, whether it's because of people, or a need of faith (you can't really have 'disbelieving groups' if it has been proven, it defeats the point). So I think the remaining religious people would find another way to beleive. Whether it is changing religion, or just believing there is something more to life (probably much more vague than the original religion). And I think I would follow them.

Offline Daytripper

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Re: IF your religion was proved to be incorrect, how would you change. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12675.msg183742#msg183742
« Reply #53 on: October 24, 2010, 07:26:04 pm »
A few quick notes:

@Daytripper: there actually are several occurrences in the Bible of people returning from the dead as an apparition of some form or another to give a message to the living. Examples include Jesus, Mosses, Elijah and Lazarus.

Ah yes, you were not too specific there. If someone was in heaven/hell, this person could transmit a message by some miracle. That is not what I meant though. I mean this: You read a story about some person who has been messing with ''paranormal activities.'' The person gets some result and suddenly believes Christianity must be correct. This is a bit awkward. With these paranormal activities it is assumed some trace of a dead person is stuck here on earth, or you would not get consistent results. So it's very strange that in the US, such a Christian country, paranormal tv shows and paranormal activities are so popular. According to Christianity this should not happen.

Ratcharmer, about your reply to the OP: Many forms of Christianity are logically busted. You never know what type of Christianity someone believes in, but if you ask a lot, you can usually find logical flaws. I do not do it often, but when I really talk to a Christian (s)he will probably fail to answer to my objections in a satisfying matter.

This is why I am an (agnostic) atheist. I consider Christianity to be flawed. I say there is either no God or a God that is widely different from what most people believe.
Shards aren't overpowered, as long as you have them yourself.

theloconate

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Re: IF your religion was proved to be incorrect, how would you change. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12675.msg183820#msg183820
« Reply #54 on: October 24, 2010, 08:42:26 pm »
If it turned out that god exists i'd just ask why he allows so much evil in the world

Re: IF your religion was proved to be incorrect, how would you change. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12675.msg184026#msg184026
« Reply #55 on: October 25, 2010, 12:43:37 am »
If it turned out that god exists i'd just ask why he allows so much evil in the world
Aren't we as humans allowing it?

theloconate

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Re: IF your religion was proved to be incorrect, how would you change. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12675.msg184115#msg184115
« Reply #56 on: October 25, 2010, 02:10:39 am »
If it turned out that god exists i'd just ask why he allows so much evil in the world
Aren't we as humans allowing it?
and we are outside the realm of god (if he exists)?

Offline Korugar

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Re: IF your religion was proved to be incorrect, how would you change. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12675.msg184118#msg184118
« Reply #57 on: October 25, 2010, 02:16:28 am »
Do we have to keep going over this...? To remove all sin God would have to either wipe us all out or turn us into robots. Somehow, I doubt you'd like either one.

theloconate

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Re: IF your religion was proved to be incorrect, how would you change. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12675.msg184119#msg184119
« Reply #58 on: October 25, 2010, 02:19:16 am »
Do we have to keep going over this...? To remove all sin God would have to either wipe us all out or turn us into robots. Somehow, I doubt you'd like either one.
Wait what? why is it that the almighty god, creator of the universe, can't simply interfere when atrocities are about to happen

Offline Korugar

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Re: IF your religion was proved to be incorrect, how would you change. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12675.msg184145#msg184145
« Reply #59 on: October 25, 2010, 03:01:03 am »
So you want an omnipotent babysitter?

 

anything
blarg: