God commanding death of innocent people

[Keolino]

How many times did God directly command his followers to commit acts of genocide - specifically, wiping out entire cities/nations, down to the last child?

quote from over there: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/religion/bible-q-a-%282%29/24/

Basically, what I want to discuss about is this one question. The main question, since majofa didn't want to answer just jet, is, if god actually commanded mass-murder at any point in that little book.

But there are some other things that I want the opinion of the forums people regarding this question.

I know that, at one point in that book, god asked for the sacrifice of a specific child. The parents actually wanted to sacrifice the kid, but then god stoped them. the questions now are:

1. God commanded "death" upon somebody innocent. Was it "the right path" to ask for something like that to get proof if the people believe in him enough? To my ears that sounds like god is an attention-seeking little child...

2. The parents of the child actually wanted to sacrifice it. Was that "the right path"? Is gods word worth more then the life of innocent people and worth more than the people that you treasure, like or love?

[timetock]

There are many people that believe that by sacrificing the lives of your own or others is a crime no matter what, and therefore that "religion" should not be called a religion. Rather, it is just an idea spurred along by a madman or a greedy man.

Also, if you're an all immortal and powerful creature (God/god), then what else can you do except mess around with people. hm?

[memimemi]

The most famous examples I can think of, off-hand, are:

Noah and the flood; the razing of Sodom and Gommorrah; Moses' command to destroy the followers of Ba'al; the slaughter of the Canaanites; the destruction of the house of Amalek; Joshua's razing of Jericho.

I'm sure there are more, which is why I asked the question in the other thread.

I've always been fascinated with the story of Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his own child, as well.  As it's a foundationial story of all of the major Western ('Abrahamic') religious traditions, it's a particularly important set of passages to understand and unpack, if one is to speak intelligently about Judaism, Christianity, or Islam.

Of course, it's not the only time that God hirself has condemned innocents, of hir own creation, to act in ways inimical to their own survival or salvation.  The story of Adam and Eve is, perhaps, the ultimate case of God setting impossible conditions upon hir own creations, in the form of a Catch-22: if Adam and Eve weren't to eat the Fruit of Knowledge of Good and Evil, then how could they be expected to have knowledge of the evil of eating it?  How, consequent to the act of eating it, could God justify the condemnation of all of humanity, for all time?  This could well be the most extreme act of commanding death upon innocents - every single as of yet unborn human is condemned to death and suffering, due to the action of the only true 'innocent' humans to have ever existed.

[ElementalDearWatson]

Yes, God does command genocide.  In 1 Samuel 15, for example, God commands Saul to kill all the Amalekites; "spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass".  Saul captures the king alive and keeps some of the livestock, too.  God then tells him off for not obeying him.  Saul tells Samuel that he saved the king and the livestock in order to burn them alive as a sacrifice to God.  Samuel says that isn't good enough and Saul is now no longer king.  Then he goes and chops the king up into pieces.

Deuteronomy contains God-sanctioned slayings of the people (specifically including children) of Heshbon and Bashan. 

There's also the promise of the wholesale slaughter of the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Caananites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, and the Hivites.   

And a commandment that if it's heard of people worshipping a different god in any city that everyone should be killed, all the cattle should be killed, and the city should be burnt to the ground. 

There's also the commandment that in any city that God "delivers" to them, his people should kill all the pregnant women, the old men and women, the sick and the dying, the blind and the lame, the nursing mothers, the infants, toddlers and babies, and all the men, but should keep all the women and female children for themselves.  But they are not to chop down the trees.

Deuteronomy's a goldmine for this stuff.

In Joshua 6 you have the God-sanctioned sacking of Jericho, in which nobody is left alive other than 1 prostitute who assisted the invaders.

Joshua 10 also contains a fair bit of God-sanctioned genocide.

Some books of the Old Testament seem to make no sense in the context of God as a deity who really exists and who is the embodiment of love.  They do, however, make plenty of sense as the modern versions of the religious texts of Yahwism, the worship of Yahweh, the Caananite/Bedoin god of war.  As Yahwism became more dominant through being the god worshipped by the royals of Israel, the previous head of the pantheon, El, was diminished and Yahweh became first the head of the pantheon, and then worship of the other gods was suppressed, leading eventually to the idea that Yahweh was the only god.  That Christianity has its roots in pantheism is why you can get passages like "thou shalt have no other gods before me", and why God is described in the Psalms as presiding over a council of gods.

The history of Christianity is far more interesting than you think it's going to be.

[Keolino]

Noah and the flood; the razing of Sodom and Gommorrah; Moses' command to destroy the followers of Ba'al; the slaughter of the Canaanites; the destruction of the house of Amalek; Joshua's razing of Jericho.

wait a second... Noah and the flood... He didn't command genozide. He mass-murdered everybody by himself...? That's a difference, and even more interesting.

Also, what is that "razing of Sodom and Gommorrah"? I didn't even hear of that till now.

Yes, God does command genocide.  In 1 Samuel 15, for example, God commands Saul to kill all the Amalekites; "spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass".  Saul captures the king alive and keeps some of the livestock, too.  God then tells him off for not obeying him.  Saul tells Samuel that he saved the king and the livestock in order to burn them alive as a sacrifice to God.  Samuel says that isn't good enough and Saul is now no longer king.  Then he goes and chops the king up into pieces.

Deuteronomy contains God-sanctioned slayings of the people (specifically including children) of Heshbon and Bashan. 

There's also the promise of the wholesale slaughter of the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Caananites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, and the Hivites.   

And a commandment that if it's heard of people worshipping a different god in any city that everyone should be killed, all the cattle should be killed, and the city should be burnt to the ground. 

There's also the commandment that in any city that God "delivers" to them, his people should kill all the pregnant women, the old men and women, the sick and the dying, the blind and the lame, the nursing mothers, the infants, toddlers and babies, and all the men, but should keep all the women and female children for themselves.  But they are not to chop down the trees.

Deuteronomy's a goldmine for this stuff.

In Joshua 6 you have the God-sanctioned sacking of Jericho, in which nobody is left alive other than 1 prostitute who assisted the invaders.

Joshua 10 also contains a fair bit of God-sanctioned genocide.

Some books of the Old Testament seem to make no sense in the context of God as a deity who really exists and who is the embodiment of love.  They do, however, make plenty of sense as the modern versions of the religious texts of Yahwism, the worship of Yahweh, the Caananite/Bedoin god of war.  As Yahwism became more dominant through being the god worshipped by the royals of Israel, the previous head of the pantheon, El, was diminished and Yahweh became first the head of the pantheon, and then worship of the other gods was suppressed, leading eventually to the idea that Yahweh was the only god.  That Christianity has its roots in pantheism is why you can get passages like "thou shalt have no other gods before me", and why God is described in the Psalms as presiding over a council of gods.

The history of Christianity is far more interesting than you think it's going to be.

wow...

I guess there is a lot of stuff like that.

[memimemi]

wait a second... Noah and the flood... He didn't command genozide. He mass-murdered everybody by himself...? That's a difference, and even more interesting.

Also, what is that "razing of Sodom and Gommorrah"? I didn't even hear of that till now.

Read Genesis, chapter 19.  One of the most populated cities of the time is utterly destroyed (because teh gayz).  Lot, the hero of the tale, is spared because he offers his virgin daughters up to be raped.   There's also a wonderful tale of incest to cap it all off.

[farscape]

There is a listing here:
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Genocide/

You could also argue, that quote from Exodus 22:19 NAB,  "Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. " can be interpreted as a rule to "doom" everyone who follows any other religion, which would include great numbers of people including many millions of children.

[MasterofPun]

God really cannot commit murder - or genocide - or any other type of crime. Not only is it not in His character - but nothing He does can be wrong.

For example: If god struck me with lightnigh and killed me, He has done no wrong. He created me - He can destroy me. I belong to Him - so I don't really have any rights. God created the WHOLE WORLD - so the universe has no rights. God can justly command whatever He wants.

There's the start.

[TheOneAndOnly]

If you want to hear the story of Abraham and Issac from the understanding of a Mormon, I'll tell you what I've learned from my seminary classes. (Seminary in Mormonism is similar to the Catholic seminary; Seminary is taught as a school period for 9-12 graders of the Mormon faith).

God loves to teach us with symbols. This is evident throughout the Bible and Book of Mormon (Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ, says so on cover page; recognized only my Mormon faith, was translated my church founder/restorer Joseph Smith). God was never going to allow Abraham to kill Issac. It wasn't part of his plan, because without Issac, there would have been no Jacob and Esau (the story of Esau's birthright is also a story symbol of Jesus and Lucifer), and without Jacob (who, like his grandfather was renamed; Jacob -> Israel), there would have been no Israel (man or nation) consequently.

Getting to the point, this story is symbolic of Christ's crucifixion. Abraham represents God, who was willing to sacrifice his son for us to be able to receive resurrected bodies. (There was many more comparisons of Abraham and God, but unfortunately I do not have the notes I took). Issac represents Christ, in that Issac carried the wood for the alter that he would be sacrificed on, just like Christ bared his cross. There is reason to believe Issac knew full well he was being sacrificed, because he didn't resist Abraham binding him. Jesus also pleaded with God in the Garden: "Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done." (Luke 22:42). Jesus asked that the cup (suffering) be lifted from him, but if it was God's will, let God's will, and not Jesus', be done. Issac didn't question his father once after he asked about the lamb for the sacrifice, which leads into a scripture: "And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together." (Genesis, chapter twenty-two, verse eight). After all is said and done and the Lord sends a ram to be sacrificed in Issac's place, and the angel manifests to him, another symbol pops up in verse 16 of the same chapter:  "And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:". The symbolism there is that like God, Abraham was willing to give up his only begotten son Issac, like God was willing to give up his only begotten son Jesus. Abraham received blessings from following God's commandment, like having his seed more numerous than the grains of sand on the earth, and that his seed would occupy his enemy's lands. If you know a little bible background, Abraham and Sarah were very old and had trouble having a child, and Abraham prayed to God for a son. Issac was beloved my Abraham and Sarah. I believe Abraham was around 100 when he and Sarah had Issac, I'm not sure on Sarah's age. (I don't think it's mentioned)

So there you have it. That story told from a Mormon's understanding. Any questions or contradictions I would be happy to answer to.

[ElementalDearWatson]

God really cannot commit murder - or genocide - or any other type of crime. Not only is it not in His character - but nothing He does can be wrong.

For example: If god struck me with lightnigh and killed me, He has done no wrong. He created me - He can destroy me. I belong to Him - so I don't really have any rights. God created the WHOLE WORLD - so the universe has no rights. God can justly command whatever He wants.

There's the start.

My parents created me.  Does that mean they can kill me with impunity?

[MasterofPun]

They did not create you.
God created humans, and humans made more humans.
We didn't CREATE anything. Creation involves making something out of nothing - like God did with the universe.

Since God created your parents, He gets to set rules for them. Murder is against one of those rules, so NO. Parents may not kill their children with impunity.

[OldTrees]

They did not create you.
God created humans, and humans made more humans.
We didn't CREATE anything. Creation involves making something out of nothing - like God did with the universe.

Since God created your parents, He gets to set rules for them. Murder is against one of those rules, so NO. Parents may not kill their children with impunity.

Interesting position. For this post I will presume your create/make divide. Let's examining the form and see if a counterexample arises:

P1: X created Y
P2: The creator gets to dictate what the creation ought to do
C: X gets to dictate what Y ought to do

Q1: Does this mean the question of morality "What ought one do?" is only applicable to created beings? Aka "God is Good" is false because the uncreated being cannot be Moral or Immoral?
Q2: If we presume the answer to Q1 is "No", then what if the creator was immoral? Does an immoral creator get to dictate what the creation ought to do?
Q3: If we presume the answer to Q1 is "Yes", then what reason do we have to believe in P2? If the creator cannot be described as moral, then how can their whims dictate morality?