*Author

Offline BluePriest

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3771
  • Reputation Power: 46
  • BluePriest is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.BluePriest is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.BluePriest is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.BluePriest is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.BluePriest is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.BluePriest is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.BluePriest is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.BluePriest is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.BluePriest is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.
  • Entropy Has You
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 5th Birthday Cake
Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg355229#msg355229
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2011, 05:24:19 am »
Ok, OldTrees, could you rephrase that second part please?

and Blue Priest, if he made everything a certain way, therefore causing a specific reaction in us, and each specific action can only cause one reaction, then he did not leave it up to us, he left it up to himself when he made the universe.

Kael:   :)
What would you do if I backtraced your IP, found your home, lit it on fie, and then confronted you and told you it was me who did it?
This sig was interrupted by Joe Biden

Offline Pineapple

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4105
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 0
  • Pineapple hides under a Cloak.
  • Master of Cake
  • Awards: Silver DonorSlice of Elements 5th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 2nd Birthday Cake
Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg355351#msg355351
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2011, 02:56:16 pm »
Quote
In my definition of "omniscient", God knows everything that will happen. ."
If that is true, then wouldn't it also be true that he knows how his decisions will affect us? If he knows that, then in effect, we don't really have free will because he created the universe in a specific way, therefore causing us to act a certain way.
You're begging the question, "What if the universe isn't created in a specific way to go down one specific path of events? What if some things are left to chance? What if any each event is not caused solely by the events before it?"

Offline Belthus

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 482
  • Reputation Power: 1
  • Belthus is a Spark waiting for a buff.
Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg355356#msg355356
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2011, 03:05:00 pm »
You're begging the question, "What if the universe isn't created in a specific way to go down one specific path of events? What if some things are left to chance? What if any each event is not caused solely by the events before it?"
Chance and free will are not the same thing. If everything is the product of causes plus a dice roll, that doesn't mean there is free will. If your decision process is similar to a lottery, then you aren't in control any more than a lottery ticket buyer is in control of winning or losing.

Offline BluePriest

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3771
  • Reputation Power: 46
  • BluePriest is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.BluePriest is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.BluePriest is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.BluePriest is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.BluePriest is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.BluePriest is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.BluePriest is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.BluePriest is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.BluePriest is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.
  • Entropy Has You
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 5th Birthday Cake
Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg355376#msg355376
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2011, 03:36:19 pm »
What would you do if I backtraced your IP, found your home, lit it on fie, and then confronted you and told you it was me who did it?
This honestly was a serious question, however, I should clarify it is meant for any who do NOT believe in free will, not just maverixk
This sig was interrupted by Joe Biden

Kael Hate

  • Guest
Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg355384#msg355384
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2011, 03:46:03 pm »
What would you do if I backtraced your IP, found your home, lit it on fie, and then confronted you and told you it was me who did it?
This honestly was a serious question, however, I should clarify it is meant for any who do NOT believe in free will, not just maverixk
What would it matter what I did?
In all likelyhood if you went out of your way to confront me I'd likely murder you.

Offline BluePriest

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3771
  • Reputation Power: 46
  • BluePriest is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.BluePriest is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.BluePriest is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.BluePriest is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.BluePriest is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.BluePriest is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.BluePriest is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.BluePriest is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.BluePriest is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.
  • Entropy Has You
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 5th Birthday Cake
Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg355389#msg355389
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2011, 03:50:26 pm »
What would you do if I backtraced your IP, found your home, lit it on fie, and then confronted you and told you it was me who did it?
This honestly was a serious question, however, I should clarify it is meant for any who do NOT believe in free will, not just maverixk
What would it matter what I did?
In all likelyhood if you went out of your way to confront me I'd likely murder you.
This is why it matters. You just said youd murder me. I dont blame you. Now, If I really did do that, am I FORCING you to murder me since I know what your response would be, or when the time came, would you still have a choice on what you did? Me burning down your house, even if I know how you are going to react, doesnt force you to react that way.
This sig was interrupted by Joe Biden

Kael Hate

  • Guest
Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg355397#msg355397
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2011, 04:14:23 pm »
What would you do if I backtraced your IP, found your home, lit it on fie, and then confronted you and told you it was me who did it?
This honestly was a serious question, however, I should clarify it is meant for any who do NOT believe in free will, not just maverixk
What would it matter what I did?
In all likelyhood if you went out of your way to confront me I'd likely murder you.
This is why it matters. You just said youd murder me. I dont blame you. Now, If I really did do that, am I FORCING you to murder me since I know what your response would be, or when the time came, would you still have a choice on what you did? Me burning down your house, even if I know how you are going to react, doesnt force you to react that way.
I didn't say I would, just that I likely would.
Before every moment an evaluation occurs before the next thing happens.
Since we have not yet covered the time between now and then it cannot be known but the result at that time will have already been determined.
Why would the program ever choose a different result if the inputs are always the same?

Offline Neopergoss

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 653
  • Reputation Power: 8
  • Neopergoss is a Spark waiting for a buff.
  • New to Elements
Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg355406#msg355406
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2011, 04:30:39 pm »
What would you do if I backtraced your IP, found your home, lit it on fie, and then confronted you and told you it was me who did it?
This honestly was a serious question, however, I should clarify it is meant for any who do NOT believe in free will, not just maverixk
What would it matter what I did?
In all likelyhood if you went out of your way to confront me I'd likely murder you.
Ah Kael, how I enjoy your droll intensity :))

Btw, I would like to point out the existence of another thread a lot like this one here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,27185.0.html) in the philosophy section. I suppose it's a bit different since this one assumes the existence of God, so maybe its existence is justified. For anyone interested in the subject, though, you might want to look at that thread, too.

Offline maverixkTopic starter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 508
  • Reputation Power: 7
  • maverixk is a Spark waiting for a buff.
  • I have an 'x' instead of a 'c'. I know you jellin'
Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg355414#msg355414
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2011, 04:50:32 pm »
Well, BluePriest, I'd prefer you not light my hose on fire. And thank you Kael and Belthus for continuing the debate in my absence.  :)
"Are you ... comparing me to God? I mean, that's great, but just so you know, I've never made a tree." -House

Offline Essence

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4340
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 57
  • Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.
  • Voice of the Oracle -- Jezzie's Pimp -- Often Gone
  • Awards: 2nd Trials - Master of Water1st Trials - Master of WaterFG Deck-Designer - The OutcastsShard Madness! Competition WinnerEpic 3 Card Design Competition WinnerElder Recruiter
Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg355416#msg355416
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2011, 04:53:15 pm »
There is no contradiction between omniscience and free will.  That's a rhetorical trap.  As was pointed out, any omniscient entity must perforce not be subject to the laws of time.  When you remove time from the equation, you must perforce remove cause-and-effect, because cause-and-effect are bound up quite heavily in time.  If God knows what tomorrow's lottery numbers are, that doesn't make the lottery any less random, it simply means that from God's perspective, everything has already happened

Similarly, the fact that God knows what I am eating tomorrow morning doesn't mean I'm not going to get up, have a debate with mself over the virtues of Par Larm vs. Saltimboca, and eventually decide to make steak and eggs. 


The problem with free will as I see it is one of neuroscience. Despite all of our advanced biological and chemical understanding of the brain, no one can tell me with any degree of reliability what happens between the moment someone tells me "your son just got hit by a car" and the moment the adrenaline dump hits.  Some nerve signals go somewhere into the depths of the brain, and some other signals come out different parts and start stimulating various glands and tissues -- but why?

There are two common answers, and I don't like either one. 

The first is that free will exists and that there is some element of the persona, whether it's a physical part of the brain or some ethereal spirit/soul/nth dimensional extracranial construct, that performs the function of 'being' your free will.  I don't like that because I can't see it, get a grip on it, or otherwise exert any control over it whatsoever.  Claiming free will exists but that it's function is hidden from us is lame.

The second is that the universe is deterministic and that, given enough informational capacity, we could eventually narrow down every single chemical and electrical reaction within my brain and come up with a completely 100% accurate model that could predict, given my entire set of circumstances, exactly what my response would be to any given input.  I don't like that because it removes my ability to control my own actions.  Claiming free will doesn't exist at all sucks.

The only options I have under this exercise are to give up control over my actions, or give up control of my own self-understanding.  I don't believe in either of those options.  My choice -- and I believe it is a choice -- is to believe that Science is a vastly and horribly limited system of deciding what is 'real' and what is not, and that I can believe my own personal experiences even if Science cannot explain them.  As such, I further believe that free will is an aggregate of the ongoing argument between several different layers and subsets of my own personality and that it can be properly understood through psychology and self-reflection even if neurobiology is fail.
If something happens and you think it deserves my attention, feel free to PM me. Other than that, I'm probably here if you want to shoot the breeze.

Offline maverixkTopic starter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 508
  • Reputation Power: 7
  • maverixk is a Spark waiting for a buff.
  • I have an 'x' instead of a 'c'. I know you jellin'
Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg355429#msg355429
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2011, 05:08:43 pm »
Essence, just because it sucks and/or you don't like it, doesn't make it any less true.
      Perhaps I worded something incorrectly. I'm beginning to think that Free Will is not the correct phrase to use, because technically I guess we do have a choice, but it doesn't matter whether or not we have the ability to make a choice or even if there are any choices because we will choose an option based solely on cause and effect. If it helps you sleep at night, then say you have Free Will, the ability to make a choice regardless of the situation. But if you want to change your viewpoint a little bit, then you really don't have Free Will because you will make a choice based on Your past and your genetics, both of which boil down to the way the...everything was made and set in motion by God(at least on this thread).
     So I guess God can be omniscient, and you can have Free Will, but does Free Will matter? Because you WILL choose something because of what happened before. So, I guess it doesn't really matter whether you say you have Free Will or not.
"Are you ... comparing me to God? I mean, that's great, but just so you know, I've never made a tree." -House

Offline Essence

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4340
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 57
  • Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.
  • Voice of the Oracle -- Jezzie's Pimp -- Often Gone
  • Awards: 2nd Trials - Master of Water1st Trials - Master of WaterFG Deck-Designer - The OutcastsShard Madness! Competition WinnerEpic 3 Card Design Competition WinnerElder Recruiter
Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg355441#msg355441
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2011, 05:28:48 pm »
Essence, just because it sucks and/or you don't like it, doesn't make it any less true.
Ahh, but it does -- precisely because we're talking about things that aren't scientifically measurable and/or provable, I'm free to make sh!t up all I want and there's nothing you can do to stop me. :D

Offer me solid evidence that I'm trapped in the dichotomy of hidden free will vs. blatant determinism, and I'll abide by your rules, but until then, I choose to call shenanigans and take my own route out.


Quote
But if you want to change your viewpoint a little bit, then you really don't have Free Will because you will make a choice based on Your past and your genetics, both of which boil down to the way the...everything was made and set in motion by God(at least on this thread).
     So I guess God can be omniscient, and you can have Free Will, but does Free Will matter? Because you WILL choose something because of what happened before. So, I guess it doesn't really matter whether you say you have Free Will or not.
That's an absurdly reductionist argument.  If you want to deny the existence of free will based on the existence of the past, you have fun with that.  The rest of us -- who understand that any choice must be informed by existing knowledge, and existing knowledge requires past experience -- will continue to have, and make, our own choices in the present.
If something happens and you think it deserves my attention, feel free to PM me. Other than that, I'm probably here if you want to shoot the breeze.

 

blarg: