Post by: Rhaego on December 19, 2010, 09:04:11 pm
(http://imageplay.net/m7Gbd111956/Picture1_thumb.jpg) (http://imageplay.net/view/m7Gbd111956/Picture1)
Post by: xdude on December 19, 2010, 09:12:15 pm
Look, AI3 is not supposed to be full of fail decks. That's AI2. AI3 is supposed to be made of good decks, to provide a challenge for the average unupped farmer. They're not that hard anyways and, let me quote zanz on this one: "Improving your deck will give you much better chances to win"
Post by: thatnewguy on December 19, 2010, 09:13:36 pm
Post by: funplay on December 19, 2010, 09:41:07 pm
Is anyone else having real trouble against the new AI3 decks? I don't mean to whinge but the difficulty has ramped up considerably. I am not about to go back to AI2, and I know it's not that my deck is weak against particular elements. Nearly ALL of the new AI3 decks are particularly difficult to beat and when I do win I typically have only 25% of my life. I am pretty adaptable when it comes to updating my strategy but as it stands it is very clear that AI3 has really become hard to beat.yes, imho, they have become more focussed and therefore better...so you have adapt...its not really what i had in mind when voting for "better midgame content". Once you have a good deck to beat them, you will happy about the change as i have the feeling AI3 now offers better rewards as before.
Concerning good decks id rather recommend the first one here: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,11026.0.html
You just cant go without any creature or permanent control against AI3 anymore, imho...
Post by: Daytripper on December 19, 2010, 09:49:30 pm
Wish there was an AI with 100 HP with upgraded cards besides the top 50.... top50 is a bit too unreliable. A balanced fight is good. Opponents with 200 HP take a lot of unnatural strategies.
Post by: Rhaego on December 19, 2010, 09:59:20 pm
Post by: Marvaddin on December 19, 2010, 10:28:47 pm
I think AI3 is the environment that usually attract new players, people with totally unupped decks most times. If the new AI3 is too hard for this public, maybe it coulbe have a nerf, huh? What the veterans think?
Post by: funplay on December 19, 2010, 10:44:12 pm
Just my 2 cents...
Post by: Dm on December 19, 2010, 10:47:11 pm
AI3 isn't to be fail decks, it's supposed to be harder.
From what I've heard, shrieker rush un-upped still beats them very often
Nilsieboy for example made a water rush, and lost 1 game in a total of 300
I played around 50 with DEMA and lost around 3
So no, it's still pretty easy and rushable with upped decks, but with un-upped, it becomes quite hard.
Post by: Bahron on December 20, 2010, 12:16:02 am
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on December 20, 2010, 12:18:52 am
Post by: Dm on December 20, 2010, 12:22:41 am
Was that the intent of the AI3 change then, to make you have upped decks to be able to beat it? Ive only played a few games myself but the reward/risk ratio seems to be a bit high. If AI3 is still intended for farming then new players have little hope of that unless the roll percentage is upped in proportion.If you read my full post, you'll notice I say Un-upped shrieker rush still works. No-land stompy is a viable option as well. Mono-life adrena rush is also a decent deck to choose and go for. Upped decks always had a advantage for being upped and therefore faster. No, AI3 is still newbie friendly, just less newb friendly then it was.
It was also a much needed update since they didn't use any of the new cards since Wings/Steam machine, and didn't use pendulums either. Most of them also give a neat chance for rares now that T50 will be gone later.
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on December 20, 2010, 12:24:09 am
Whoops, I was in a rush and didn't notice. Sorry. And what do you mean T50 will be gone?Was that the intent of the AI3 change then, to make you have upped decks to be able to beat it? Ive only played a few games myself but the reward/risk ratio seems to be a bit high. If AI3 is still intended for farming then new players have little hope of that unless the roll percentage is upped in proportion.If you read my full post, you'll notice I say Un-upped shrieker rush still works. No-land stompy is a viable option as well. Mono-life adrena rush is also a decent deck to choose and go for. Upped decks always had a advantage for being upped and therefore faster. No, AI3 is still newbie friendly, just less newb friendly then it was.
It was also a much needed update since they didn't use any of the new cards since Wings/Steam machine, and didn't use pendulums either. Most of them also give a neat chance for rares now that T50 will be gone later.
Post by: Dm on December 20, 2010, 12:27:24 am
Whoops, I was in a rush and didn't notice. Sorry. And what do you mean T50 will be gone?Was that the intent of the AI3 change then, to make you have upped decks to be able to beat it? Ive only played a few games myself but the reward/risk ratio seems to be a bit high. If AI3 is still intended for farming then new players have little hope of that unless the roll percentage is upped in proportion.If you read my full post, you'll notice I say Un-upped shrieker rush still works. No-land stompy is a viable option as well. Mono-life adrena rush is also a decent deck to choose and go for. Upped decks always had a advantage for being upped and therefore faster. No, AI3 is still newbie friendly, just less newb friendly then it was.
It was also a much needed update since they didn't use any of the new cards since Wings/Steam machine, and didn't use pendulums either. Most of them also give a neat chance for rares now that T50 will be gone later.
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17265.0.html
Post by: johannhowitzer on December 20, 2010, 12:29:11 am
Quote
Was that the intent of the AI3 change then, to make you have upped decks to be able to beat it? Ive only played a few games myself but the reward/risk ratio seems to be a bit high. If AI3 is still intended for farming then new players have little hope of that unless the roll percentage is upped in proportion.AI3 used to be steamrolled by any decently-made unupped deck. So yes, now you have some losses thrown in there, doesn't mean it's hopeless or you have to have an upped deck. By that logic, we should all quit farming FGs because even upped decks suffer losses often.
Farming doesn't mean winning every game.
Post by: Dragoon on December 20, 2010, 01:38:48 am
Post by: funplay on December 20, 2010, 11:46:34 am
The difficulty was upped considerably, of course.Your last words...thats the key for me! Dont get me wrong: I personally have no problem with beating AI3 anytime, but i noticed the raise in difficulty...
...
AI3 isn't to be fail decks, it's supposed to be harder.
...
So no, it's still pretty easy and rushable with upped decks, but with un-upped, it becomes quite hard.
I think the current balacing has some major flaws concerning the "fun-factor":
The new Players point of view: The need for quite a high amount of electrum to even collect common cards...so you NEED to grind/farm - especially as a new player -> so in order to be at least a bit succesful you have to concentrate first on "the one, very good farming deck" - unupped of course -> the new AI3 makes this even more vital AND makes gaining your first 10K electrum quite hard and time comsuming without much progress...in conclusion: the current AI3 makes it harder for new players to even collect a solid base of common cards while limiting them to only one working deck for quite some time -> not much fun -> for new players there should be a MODERATELY difficult way to acquire a solid collection of common cards to allow them building the deck they like to have.
The Vetereans point of view: Even when your playing quite some time, i imagine there are always some other cards that could be upped, so constantly need some electrum...so your looking for the best/fastest way to gain electrum...and it seems that speed farming AI3 offers the most gain - and THATS WRONG!
imho AI3 should be a moderate challenge for new players and offer suitable rewards for new players...but fighting against T50 (or T500, when its implemented) should offer much better rewards, so that these really good and effective upped farming decks wont raise the difficulty for new players...it should always be much more worth it to take a chance on higher levels, then to constantly win fast on lower levels.
Looking around it the forums and taking a look at the latest patch (love the new cards, btw, great work!), i more and more get the impression that the veterans point of view is dominating...which might cause some problems acquiring new players to this great game....
Post by: Dm on December 20, 2010, 11:52:36 am
Post by: rowcla on December 20, 2010, 12:35:15 pm
I just recorded the "Life Queen" (Life/Air duo) deck...if anyone of us had proposed a that much focussed deck, i would have "way too strong" for AI3...its pretty much the Fire Queen, but i think with Hope almost stronger^^ - not having a fast deck or not enough creature control - your dead.well it still is missing a false gods advantages at least
Just my 2 cents...
Post by: Dm on December 20, 2010, 12:41:50 pm
I just recorded the "Life Queen" (Life/Air duo) deck...if anyone of us had proposed a that much focussed deck, i would have "way too strong" for AI3...its pretty much the Fire Queen, but i think with Hope almost stronger^^ - not having a fast deck or not enough creature control - your dead.well it still is missing a false gods advantages at least
Just my 2 cents...
A lot of them. 3x Mark, Over 60 deck, over 6 copies of one card, 2 draw per turn, all upped.
Post by: BluePriest on December 20, 2010, 04:43:16 pm
On Your End
______________
ai1-More of a tutorial than a battle.
ai2-Able to beat with just about any deck.
ai3-Needs a well constructed deck.
ai5-Need partial ups for victory
ai6-Do not proceed without a lot of upped cards
______________
On the AI's End
______________
ai1-OHH! look at the pretty colors
ai2-Took "Deck-Building 101"
ai3-Took lessons with jmdt
ai5-Screw the rules, I have money
ai6-My power level is OVER 8000!!!
Post by: Marvaddin on December 20, 2010, 06:08:15 pm
No, AI3 is still newbie friendly, just less newb friendly then it was.Sorry but Im not really sure about this, friend.
I also think AI3 is an environment for newbie players. Veterans play it because of easy fast wins and good money reward. Its more challenging now, the veterans may like it, but for newbie, it seems too hard. If newbies are supposed to fight AI2 instead, increase its gains. Fresh players need cards to start constructing decks, and AI2 is not the place, with 2 spins. If veterans are supposed to play AI5, increase its gains, and lets let AI3 for newbies.
Post by: Dm on December 20, 2010, 06:19:51 pm
Fact is AI5 is still pretty useless as it is now because the mix of upped and un-upped + 200 hp make it a bad place to rush. Most Vets still stay in the AI3. And yes, I'm afraid that farming AI2 is the only viable way for newbies now. But they need the money, so if they just do smart decisions and go ahead and build decent decks, they can move ahead pretty fast. PVP is also a good way to win money even though it's slower.No, AI3 is still newbie friendly, just less newb friendly then it was.Sorry but Im not really sure about this, friend.
I also think AI3 is an environment for newbie players. Veterans play it because of easy fast wins and good money reward. Its more challenging now, the veterans may like it, but for newbie, it seems too hard. If newbies are supposed to fight AI2 instead, increase its gains. Fresh players need cards to start constructing decks, and AI2 is not the place, with 2 spins. If veterans are supposed to play AI5, increase its gains, and lets let AI3 for newbies.
In a way, I agree AI2 needs a small buff in reward, but I disagree in another way as that would result in much faster kills for Vet's, thus making the score gap between the two even larger then it is now.
Post by: BluePriest on December 20, 2010, 07:38:44 pm
Post by: funplay on December 20, 2010, 08:29:47 pm
The current AI isnt too strong. The old one was too weak. there wasnt even a point to fighting ai2 before. Now people will actually fight them.*sarcasm mode on* oh, great...doing around 5 fights for a card is SO much fun...oh, wait...i just discovered there is a forum...but i picked the wrong element...but i dont want to sell my precious cards to build a new deck...Oh well, its SO much fun that i have to do 500 fights with AI2 to get a new deck! *sarcasm mode off*
No offence intended...but forcing newbs down to AI2? 10 electrum, 2 spins per win?
Could somebody PLEASE explain to me, why this game has to be that challenging for newbs?
I mean, this is about having FUN, enjoying the game, making progress at a moderate speed...or even faster at the beginning.
Im really seriously interested why some seem to think that grinding AI2 for common cards should be fun?
Why has there to be so much grinding anyway? Seriously, i dont understand it...
Post by: Dm on December 20, 2010, 08:32:20 pm
By selling old cards you get new ones and therefore proceed to AI3 to get the other cards. All done with some simple thinkin'.The current AI isnt too strong. The old one was too weak. there wasnt even a point to fighting ai2 before. Now people will actually fight them.*sarcasm mode on* oh, great...doing around 5 fights for a card is SO much fun...oh, wait...i just discovered there is a forum...but i picked the wrong element...but i dont want to sell my precious cards to build a new deck...Oh well, its SO much fun that i have to do 500 fights with AI2 to get a new deck! *sarcasm mode off*
No offence intended...but forcing newbs down to AI2? 10 electrum, 2 spins per win?
Could somebody PLEASE explain to me, why this game has to be that challenging for newbs?
I mean, this is about having FUN, enjoying the game, making progress at a moderate speed...or even faster at the beginning.
Im really seriously interested why some seem to think that grinding AI2 for common cards should be fun?
Why has there to be so much grinding anyway? Seriously, i dont understand it...
Post by: BluePriest on December 20, 2010, 08:41:14 pm
youre right. You DONT understand. All you had to do with ai3 before was rush rush rush and you would win. Thats not hard deck building. Thats not even fun. A game isnt fun if you just have to click everything in site and win. Thats monotonous.The current AI isnt too strong. The old one was too weak. there wasnt even a point to fighting ai2 before. Now people will actually fight them.*sarcasm mode on* oh, great...doing around 5 fights for a card is SO much fun...oh, wait...i just discovered there is a forum...but i picked the wrong element...but i dont want to sell my precious cards to build a new deck...Oh well, its SO much fun that i have to do 500 fights with AI2 to get a new deck! *sarcasm mode off*
No offence intended...but forcing newbs down to AI2? 10 electrum, 2 spins per win?
Could somebody PLEASE explain to me, why this game has to be that challenging for newbs?
I mean, this is about having FUN, enjoying the game, making progress at a moderate speed...or even faster at the beginning.
Im really seriously interested why some seem to think that grinding AI2 for common cards should be fun?
Why has there to be so much grinding anyway? Seriously, i dont understand it...
A game is fun when there is a challenge. Or even without a challenge, a game is fun when you have to actually think. Refer to the new ttw study. Soon there will be unupped decks in there that work perfectly fine. The AI 3 were changed to be able to handle more things. They just require better deck building when facing them. If you dont want to think on how to design a deck then play ai2.
Post by: funplay on December 20, 2010, 08:49:28 pm
By selling old cards you get new ones and therefore proceed to AI3 to get the other cards. All done with some simple thinkin'.Your right...this can be done....easily...
BUT again: Why is this game forcing new players down to ONE deck at the beginning? Maybe its just me, but CCGs are for me most fun when i can toy around with decks, do this and that...maybe i am bored with mono life and want to try mono death...but wait: i sold all my death cards to afford that life deck...so i have to start from 0.
I just dont like that philosophy...but probably the two of us simply think different about the way this game should be balanced and the time new players have to spent to build a new deck.
Let me give you an example:
Seeing the Crusader brought a deck idea to my mind, i would love to test...but that deck needs some vampiric stillettos...well, fortunately enough, there are some farms in T50 (i am SO happy about any of those nice people to set them up, tyvm!), so it only took me 3 hours of grinding T50 (well, i am ambitious enough not to quit when facing a real deck, though) to collect some, as i was really lucky that someone had a stilletto/OE farm. Ok, but as I was loosing some of the fights in T50 and my version of "No land stompy" does not do EMs often, i only gained around 400 electrum...well, lets give it a try...400 should be ok to buy the missing cards...oh, wait, i want to use pendulums...24 each, crusaders 59 each and so on...ok, back to grinding again :(
Need another 500 electrum...oh, wait...AI3 just became harder and a bit slower for unupped...anyway: grinding time again :(
Another hour later, having earned another some 300 or 400 electrum (i know, could have done better^^), i stopped...it was becoming BORING. And all of this, just to build ONE deck, unupped, mostly common cards...once i have my card base improved (im up to 400some atm), i might calm down...but until then, its grinding, grinding and grinding...and i didnt even start talking about upping cards^^
youre right. You DONT understand. All you had to do with ai3 before was rush rush rush and you would win. Thats not hard deck building. Thats not even fun. A game isnt fun if you just have to click everything in site and win. Thats monotonous.i am completely with you, that simple "rush, rush, rush" is not fun...well, at least after some time.
A game is fun when there is a challenge. Or even without a challenge, a game is fun when you have to actually think. Refer to the new ttw study. Soon there will be unupped decks in there that work perfectly fine. The AI 3 were changed to be able to handle more things. They just require better deck building when facing them. If you dont want to think on how to design a deck then play ai2.
But why do i HAVE to do this?
Cause the way the game is balanced right now...electrum/cards, even common cards, are not easy to get. AI3 have to make me think...fine with me. I already did my some hundreds of farming runs...FOR ME, its nice to see some new decks and I like the new experience they offer...
For me this is about "fun in games"... Challenge and making you think is only one part of the medal.
I once saw a pretty good lecture by sid meyer talking about game balance, difficulties and about creating a succesful game... explictly including casual gamers. The thing i am trying to point out is: Getting rewarded and making progress in the game, feeling "powerful"...simply SUCCESS in any way is a MAJOR motivation to most people...and taking a look at the casual gamers side, i think this game makes it too difficult for new players...espcially casual gamers. I really want this game to keep being succesful, as i think its really great.
Furthermore: even after you faced the challenge of AI3, put together (or copied;)) a successful deck...what are your rewards?
Now you have one successful deck...but you had to sacrifice other cards for that. Putting together a new deck will need: hated grinding!
Post by: BluePriest on December 20, 2010, 09:15:11 pm
I am saying that you should have to think in the deckbuilding process to be able to beat the opponent that is 40% of the way through the games difficulty. 50% if you dont count the sporadicness of ai4s.
At the beginning of the game it is hard to get electrum to build a new deck. Many people restarted several times because they realized the mistakes they made and were actually in a better position when on a new account. Myself included. However, as you get working, those hard to get :electrum become a lot easier to get. Then the only hard part is getting upped cards. I hardly ever actually faced ai3 because I went to FG grinding with an almost completely unupped deck the instant I had the electrum.
If you want to try out all types of decks we have the trainer.
And I will once again say, that you do not need upped cards to beat the new ai3. It is plenty easy to beat them with a completely unupgraded deck. You just need to adjust to the new *you cant rush me and win 99% of games* ai3.
EDIT
Thinking ahead is a good idea when selling cards. If you think you may be building a deck with that card in the near future, dont sell it. If its a card you know you are never going to use, then sell it. Its aa bad idea to sell every card you get to focus on your deck, because as you said, you have to create a completely new deck after that.
Post by: funplay on December 20, 2010, 11:56:17 pm
You seem to misunderstood me. I never said grinding is a good thing. I think just about everyone agrees grinding is NOT a good thing.Well, it really seems that actually we both can agree on the major aspects :D I marked two key sentences:
I am saying that you should have to think in the deckbuilding process to be able to beat the opponent that is 40% of the way through the games difficulty. 50% if you dont count the sporadicness of ai4s.
At the beginning of the game it is hard to get electrum to build a new deck. Many people restarted several times because they realized the mistakes they made and were actually in a better position when on a new account. Myself included.
- the really hard to get :electrum, especially at the beginning.
- the start beeing that hard, that people have restart their accounts.
I just wanted to point out, that the improvements of AI3 (which i completely agree with, can be rushed anymore that easily, but are still beatable, even for unuppeds) further consolidate this situation, which i dont find desirable. i am also not saying they need a major nerf, but some of them are just a bit too much focussed imho. Always looking in the direction of acquiring new players to the game and making them stay.
Most games I know, offer a considerable time with easy to get and nice (but not OP) rewards...this phase is really much to short in elements, imho. I cant remember anymore, but i think the quest rewards didnt earn me enough money to setup a second, common card deck...which they should imo. Make the player fight the first quests with his original cards, but allow them an easy switch to the deck they want use for the next period of playing. For me, the current balancing system is not much new player friendly....
However, as you get working, those hard to get :electrum become a lot easier to get. Then the only hard part is getting upped cards. I hardly ever actually faced ai3 because I went to FG grinding with an almost completely unupped deck the instant I had the electrum.Well, i did almost the same. While doing 500 pts quest, i realized, that i needed a deck that could beat AI3 quite reliable and that to afford the cards i wanted, i needed massive amounts of :electrum. So i took a break at that point, searched for the forum and this first led me to mono-shrieker, quickly followed by SGs Basic FG-Farming Bow :D I even started FG-farming with no upgrades, eventually won some ups and improved from there on...but i dont think that many players will do that?
If you want to try out all types of decks we have the trainer.Know about Trainer (though there should be a direct link!) and you are right. I could do this. But for me its still a much better feeling to "field test" my decks...unless they are really expensive or important (like testing decks for oracle prediction). You know, if my "baby" actually works, i want to have the spoils right away...;)
Thinking ahead is a good idea when selling cards. If you think you may be building a deck with that card in the near future, dont sell it. If its a card you know you are never going to use, then sell it. Its aa bad idea to sell every card you get to focus on your deck, because as you said, you have to create a completely new deck after that.Mostly agreed. Id even go one step further: Some day, im sure, i will want to compete in PvP more and also doing some Tournaments, maybe even trying to be recruited in a War? Of course, unupped stuff for quite some time ;)
So I need unupped cards...so the first Nova I sold was my 13th.
And I cant say " I will never use that"...e.g. sold all vodoo dolls i found first...until i needed them for a Anti-Incarnate deck. So i have become quite careful about "useless" cards ;) Even selling that Arctic squid hurt me...though i probably wont use it any time soon...but its still rare^^
Post by: BluePriest on December 21, 2010, 12:20:06 am
Quote
Most games I know, offer a considerable time with easy to get and nice (but not OP) rewards...this phase is really much to short in elements, imho. I cant remember anymore, but i think the quest rewards didnt earn me enough money to setup a second, common card deck...which they should imo. Make the player fight the first quests with his original cards, but allow them an easy switch to the deck they want use for the next period of playing. For me, the current balancing system is not much new player friendly....This I completely agree with. Ive heard Zanz has been working on a quest system, but that was months ago.
To quote myself on my reasoning for ai3 being good.
On Your EndI believe you are looking at new players the wrong way. What you are talking about mainly applies to knew people that have been playing a little (a couple weeks to a month).
______________
ai1-More of a tutorial than a battle.
ai2-Able to beat with just about any deck.
ai3-Needs a well constructed deck.
ai5-Need partial ups for victory
ai6-Do not proceed without a lot of upped cards
______________
On the AI's End
______________
ai1-OHH! look at the pretty colors
ai2-Took "Deck-Building 101"
ai3-Took lessons with jmdt
ai5-Screw the rules, I have money
ai6-My power level is OVER 8000!!!
To someone who just started the game, they will see no problem with sticking with the ai2. It seems ridiculous to people from before the latest patch since they are use to fighting ai3, but to someone just starting, they will just think that they need to make better decks to face ai3. I have always thought it was too easy to progress from lvl 1-lvl3. It was almost as if lvl1 & 2 didnt exist. Now they will exist to the newer players. I think making players stay at lower difficulties is good because then they understand how the game works better.
Post by: Glitch on December 21, 2010, 12:32:30 am
I thought it was surprisingly devoid of rustler.
Post by: johannhowitzer on December 21, 2010, 01:46:45 am
There's a delicate balance here that I think Zanz is trying to strike - making the game approachable to new players while still giving enough challenge and interest to keep them. People are naturally going to disagree on where that balance lies.
On the other end of the spectrum (huge learning curve, low player retention) is a persistent world called Higher Ground, made for Neverwinter Nights. The server is dying, thanks to a shrinking playerbase, but new players are still showing up all the time despite the game's age. Low player retention is killing them because, even more than, say, Dungeons and Dragons, Higher Ground takes a LONG time to learn to play well. It took me 2-3 years to even get a solid character build going and enter the final dungeons.
Coming from that environment, Elements sure looks simple... heh!
Post by: BluePriest on December 21, 2010, 01:49:02 am
You know, WoW has been bleeding veterans profusely these days, thanks to the way they're dumbing down new content to satisfy new players. The playerbase benefits, and so does their revenue, but the game itself suffers. I personally quit because of this - I play games to be challenged strategically, and ever since Wrath came out, things have been way too easy. Cata was just more of the same.THIS!
There's a delicate balance here that I think Zanz is trying to strike - making the game approachable to new players while still giving enough challenge and interest to keep them. People are naturally going to disagree on where that balance lies.
It is extremely frustrating to have to work hard to get to where you are at, and then a game update make it easy, and all that work go to waste. Ive come close to quitting many games because of this.
Post by: johannhowitzer on December 21, 2010, 01:53:18 am
It wasn't the frustration that made me quit, though. I don't care if I work for 2985632 months to get Super Epic Deluxe Secret Flying Dragon Mount and then some newbie snatches it up in a couple weeks; I care about going into the Big Evil Lair and actually having to form a strategy with my teammates or get toasted.
Icecrown Citadel, the "ultimate" raid dungeon in Wrath (well, until Ruby Sanctum, the outcast raid) was so simple and easy I could pug the first half of it every week with newbies. That's boredom, not fun.
Post by: BC on December 21, 2010, 05:24:50 am
All you had to do with ai3 before was rush rush rush and you would win. Thats not hard deck building. Thats not even fun. A game isnt fun if you just have to click everything in site and win. Thats monotonous.These AI3s are different how? In fact, rushing is even more important now, because these new ai3s have bunch of control cards.
Post by: Essence on December 21, 2010, 08:32:01 am
Low player retention is killing them because, even more than, say, Dungeons and Dragons, Higher Ground takes a LONG time to learn to play well. It took me 2-3 years to even get a solid character build going and enter the final dungeons.
Wow...harder to learn than D&D? That's...that's incredible. :D
About the new AI3 -- it's not so much that the decks are harder to beat. It's that they're actually different in their abilities now. All of the old AI3 decks were pretty much variations on a theme. Sure, some had Heal and some had Bone Wall, or whatever, but they were all just creature spam decks with (possibly) one trick up their sleeves.
The new AI3s are much better representative of what people actually play -- there are defensive powerhouses (Shrodinger's Bones), there are toxic stalls (DuneDial), there are crazy control decks (Pharaoh's Empathy), and there are just plain goofy decks (Pendulum Farm). Any given one of those decks is easy to beat -- but finding an unupped deck to get a good winrate against all of them is going to be tough.
That's a good thing. Is it harder to farm? At the moment, it feels like it, but only because we already had a list of decks with amazing winrates against the old AI3. Now, the boards will get together, analyze the new decks, and a new tier of AI3 killers will come out that does just as well. It may take a month or so, but if you're patient, they will arrive.
Post by: funplay on December 21, 2010, 11:27:08 am
I believe you are looking at new players the wrong way. What you are talking about mainly applies to new people that have been playing a little (a couple weeks to a month).I have to agree to most of that, i only AI1&2 very few times. But not only because they werent a challenge for me, but mostly they offer practically no reward.
To someone who just started the game, they will see no problem with sticking with the ai2. It seems ridiculous to people from before the latest patch since they are use to fighting ai3, but to someone just starting, they will just think that they need to make better decks to face ai3. I have always thought it was too easy to progress from lvl 1-lvl3. It was almost as if lvl1 & 2 didnt exist. Now they will exist to the newer players. I think making players stay at lower difficulties is good because then they understand how the game works better.
So the case "Better AI3 decks" is solved for me. Keep them. There still has something to be done about suitable rewards for new players, imho. But thats another topic ;)
Post by: Jocker13 on December 21, 2010, 10:40:17 pm
Not that it'd matter, but AI5 doesn't have Nymphs(or at least pre patch), thus it makes little sense for AI3 to have one.
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on December 22, 2010, 12:07:23 am
I also tested USEM and the christmas EM deck: still the good old EMs
oh yeah, some of the new elders do have nymphs, i believe the gravity/earth has some earth nymphs, and the water/fire has some fire nymphs
Post by: BluePriest on December 22, 2010, 12:10:59 am
Why Is there a Red Nymph in an Ai3 deck?Yeah they did. I saw a nymph in them occasionally. Mainly Gravity ones, but I occasionally saw a fire nymph as well.
Not that it'd matter, but AI5 doesn't have Nymphs(or at least pre patch), thus it makes little sense for AI3 to have one.
Post by: hainkarga on December 22, 2010, 01:27:59 pm
My opinion is that it would be much more fun like this;
- Ai3 stays as it is now, challenging decks
- Ai3 should have much and much better rewards. This helps the newbies to have upped cards at a more reasonable time.
- Ai3 should NOT allow you to fight it with an upped deck. Once you click ai3, your deck is temporarly converted to unupped. This should compensate for the good reward so that rich people can't abuse it.
In fact, i will post this to suggestion forum.
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on December 22, 2010, 02:06:04 pm
i think it should that once u get like 5000 (more? less?) score, the good rewards go away, also, once u get that score, even if it goes down due to losses, u still won't have the reward back
Post by: Izzythemachine on December 23, 2010, 12:50:56 am
maybe, for the first 7 days after creating your account you get better rewards. I think a score limit would work as well, but it might be abused...
I think that ai2 should have better rewards as well(3 spins or more :electrum bonus), if ai3 meant for players with a well constructed deck. Truthfully, unless new players check out the forums, their decks aren't going to turn out very well. Newbies probably wont understand quantum usage, wont have as much exposure to all of the different cards, and most likely will choose the wrong weapon (i know i did). If grinding is bad, then lets make it easier to build decks and more about experiencing all of the aspects of elements.
btw, why does ai3 have nymphs?? It makes no sense.
And @hainkarga, I agree with TheIdioticIdiot, ai3 should not temporarily downgrade your cards.
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on December 23, 2010, 01:42:21 am
if u mean to lose it on purpose, plz read my comment clearly
Post by: johannhowitzer on December 23, 2010, 02:24:06 am
Quote
Wow...harder to learn than D&D? That's...that's incredible. :DDude... yeah. You have NO idea. They keep introducing new content, like WoW does, too. I beat the Nine Hells (Baator) a couple times, but then they introduced Elysium and Aboleths, and I was faced with a new wall of fresh learning curve. I ran both of the new runs and with my three or so years' experience in the game, I had no CLUE what was going on. Asmodeus, the final boss of Nessus, 9th layer of Hell, usually takes a good half hour just for the boss fight, I think I ran one that went 45 minutes, most of which was spent on the edge of our seats just trying to survive.
If that game had a maintainable playerbase (they're working on ideas for that, but I think it's doubtful), you could totally lose yourself in it for decades without playing any other games. WoW has nothing on it. They actually cracked and modified the game engine to support all kinds of new features, including 20 extra levels on top of the game's hard cap. And they did it all without requiring new players to download any extra files.
But I'm going off-topic again, if you want to hear more, PM me or something.
Post by: rowcla on December 23, 2010, 04:24:22 pm
I just recorded the "Life Queen" (Life/Air duo) deck...if anyone of us had proposed a that much focussed deck, i would have "way too strong" for AI3...its pretty much the Fire Queen, but i think with Hope almost stronger^^ - not having a fast deck or not enough creature control - your dead.just saw the actual deck and i can tell you this is a pretty bad ffq deck
Just my 2 cents...
i mean its only life cards are life pendulums and empathetic bonds, that means it has no rustlers, heals or adrenaline, its definitely been made worse then they could have so don't panic about its difficulty
Post by: funplay on December 23, 2010, 05:28:37 pm
sure, it could of course be even more focussed/better...i was just surprised at that point to see that the new AI3 had some focussed decks.I just recorded the "Life Queen" (Life/Air duo) deck...if anyone of us had proposed a that much focussed deck, i would have "way too strong" for AI3...its pretty much the Fire Queen, but i think with Hope almost stronger^^ - not having a fast deck or not enough creature control - your dead.just saw the actual deck and i can tell you this is a pretty bad ffq deck
Just my 2 cents...
i mean its only life cards are life pendulums and empathetic bonds, that means it has no rustlers, heals or adrenaline, its definitely been made worse then they could have so don't panic about its difficulty
But that was not the thing i wanted to point out...it was about making the game quite tough for new players and about game balance...just take a look back, and follow the discussion between BluePriest and me, if your interested...
Post by: BluePriest on December 24, 2010, 02:36:00 am
Post by: CrazyJay94 on December 24, 2010, 04:34:52 am
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on December 24, 2010, 05:34:33 am
it hasn't gotten any easier, the new elders are actually more focused (their strategies), and thus harder
however, with proper rush decks, they still easy to farm, I have only lost two, or maybe three, games to them so far with USEM
Post by: Pineapple on December 24, 2010, 05:49:39 am
From my experiences, the only thing that has changes are that the pendulums allow better flow of quanta. Basically nothing else has changed. The old ai3 could have pulled that off on you if it had a lucky draw, so I don't see what sparked you to make this topic.
On the other hand, all the decks in ai3 can easily be countered by unupped decks, and a few decks have no problem farming ai3s.
Personally, I want the jump from ai2 to ai3 to be similar in difficulty to the jump from ai3/ai5 to ai6, but that's asking for too much.
--
Oh, and I'm just wondering, OP.
Were you mutating/sniping ffqs before everything else?
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on December 24, 2010, 11:10:44 am
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Post by: Pineapple on December 24, 2010, 09:00:46 pm
this is unrelated to the topic, but @patchx94, check out ur profile picture, and then look at mine...[offtopic] yeah, actually went like "omfg, now i have 200 posts and can put a .gif as my profile pic! ...now i remember there was this one guy with an ash turning into a phoenix turning into an ash...hm...."[/offtopic]
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Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on December 24, 2010, 09:19:30 pm
It's creepy that we both have "China" as our country...this is unrelated to the topic, but @patchx94, check out ur profile picture, and then look at mine...[offtopic] yeah, actually went like "omfg, now i have 200 posts and can put a .gif as my profile pic! ...now i remember there was this one guy with an ash turning into a phoenix turning into an ash...hm...."[/offtopic]
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Post by: Izzythemachine on December 24, 2010, 09:28:38 pm
anyways, this whole discussion probably isnt important because its kinda ridiculous to lose on purpose just to keep getting the better rewards. I dont actually think anyone would abuse it, but i do think it would be easier on zanz to implement a timer system instead of a points-based system.
And now that I think about it, the new ai3 isnt that much harder, it just gives a better fight against rush decks.
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on December 24, 2010, 10:20:19 pm
like for example, u have 4503, that's not 5000, but u lost 845 score on the way there, so u have technically won 5348, which means the bonuses end
Post by: Izzythemachine on December 28, 2010, 07:40:10 pm
Post by: Hodari on December 28, 2010, 09:12:44 pm
The first is the difficulty of the opponents. For this, each level should be just difficult enough that by the time you more or less mastered one level, the next one will provide a decent challenge. As things are set up now with the new AI3's, I think the difficulty is just about right. The first couple levels are easy enough for a new player to win using the starter deck with at most minor modifications, AI 2 requires at least a somewhat decent deck, AI3 needs a solid unupgraded deck, and 5 and 6 need a very well built deck and at least a few upped cards to do well. Also, the quest system is there to basically walk people through the needed steps early on.
Once that is settled, the second issue is balancing the risk vs. reward for each difficulty. Again, ideally each level's reward should be balanced so that you can get the cards you need in order to move on to the next level within a reasonable period of time while also making it so that one you are able to move on, it will be more profitable for you to do so rather than continuing to farm lower levels. I think this is where some rebalancing may be needed now with the new AI3's being harder. If new players will be forced to spend a bit longer on AI2 since AI3 is harder now, the rewards for these 2 levels at least should be increased slightly to compensate. It is also worth noting however that the new AI3's also seem to be a little bit better as far as allowing you to farm rares from them(both giving an increased reward and helping to prepare for the future changes in top50)
As for preventing more experienced players from abusing things if AI3 rewards are increased, aside from the suggestions already made, I have two ideas. First, rather than raising the electrum rewards for lower difficulties, instead simply lower the costs of buying cards from the bazaar. This will make it easier for new players to get started and get multiple decks to keep things from being too boring while grinding early on, however upgrading cards(which affects experienced players more) would still take the same amount of time, thus making it worthwhile to move on to higher levels once you can do so.
Secondly, if you want to go with the suggestion someone made earlier of providing increased rewards in the beginning to new payers, rather than making this time or score based, why not simply provide the increased rewards until the player all of the quests(or at least up until a certain point in the quest list). Again, by the time a player reaches the point of being able to beat at least one fg, they're probably ready to move up to farming at least AI3 or even 5 and maybe top50, so the higher rewards aren't needed as much anymore.
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on December 28, 2010, 09:18:21 pm
u can beat FGs very early on, not easily, but it's not that hard either
just get liquid antimatter
Post by: Hodari on December 28, 2010, 09:30:05 pm
@HodariYeah, and using the oracle to know which one you'll be facing, you can get by with a fully unupped deck in many cases. But I would be very surprised if a new player just starting out was able to come up with either of those effectively, unless they did a lot of research on these forums first(in which case they'd probably also know about the decreased rewards once they did win and be able to make an intelligent decision about when it was time to give up those rewards and move on)
u can beat FGs very early on, not easily, but it's not that hard either
just get liquid antimatter
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on December 28, 2010, 10:18:28 pm
such as:
1) reward whores who just won't move on to FGs... (depend on what the reward is tho)
2) stupid/lazy ppl who don't do enough research (enough research to beat FGs), loses their rewards super early on
Post by: johannhowitzer on December 28, 2010, 10:53:02 pm
Quote
1) reward whores who just won't move on to FGs... (depend on what the reward is tho)Such as the entire T50? AI3 is currently the fastest source of score.
Post by: Mark_Tran on December 31, 2010, 01:05:57 am
I came across it again recently and being much older and smarter now, I checked out the forums, figured out the game, and after 6 days I am at nearly 3k points, with an almost fully upgraded FG-grinder deck.
I farmed AI3 with the first two unupped decks found here: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,8813.0.html
I finished the quests pretty fast and sold everything to make SG's unupped FG-grinder and here i am today!
Post by: cunnyravu on January 19, 2013, 10:14:44 pm
Post by: Zarathustra1883 on January 19, 2013, 10:20:56 pm
Post by: Farin44 on March 18, 2013, 04:57:48 am
This is the deck I like to use for AI3, it's not the best, but it works for me.
Post by: eaglgenes101 on March 18, 2013, 05:25:31 am
*Sigh* This is not the right place for decks you use. This is for discussing the AI3 AI's decks.
This is the deck I like to use for AI3, it's not the best, but it works for me.
Post by: shinyarceus4 on April 05, 2013, 01:31:01 am