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Re: This is considered an AI3 opponent? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17923.msg229459#msg229459
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2010, 08:29:47 PM »
The current AI isnt too strong. The old one was too weak. there wasnt even a point to fighting ai2 before. Now people will actually fight them.
*sarcasm mode on* oh, great...doing around 5 fights for a card is SO much fun...oh, wait...i just discovered there is a forum...but i picked the wrong element...but i dont want to sell my precious cards to build a new deck...Oh well, its SO much fun that i have to do 500 fights with AI2 to get a new deck! *sarcasm mode off*

No offence intended...but forcing newbs down to AI2? 10 electrum, 2 spins per win?

Could somebody PLEASE explain to me, why this game has to be that challenging for newbs?

I mean, this is about having FUN, enjoying the game, making progress at a moderate speed...or even faster at the beginning.

Im really seriously interested why some seem to think that grinding AI2 for common cards should be fun?
Why has there to be so much grinding anyway? Seriously, i dont understand it...

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Re: This is considered an AI3 opponent? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17923.msg229464#msg229464
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2010, 08:32:20 PM »
The current AI isnt too strong. The old one was too weak. there wasnt even a point to fighting ai2 before. Now people will actually fight them.
*sarcasm mode on* oh, great...doing around 5 fights for a card is SO much fun...oh, wait...i just discovered there is a forum...but i picked the wrong element...but i dont want to sell my precious cards to build a new deck...Oh well, its SO much fun that i have to do 500 fights with AI2 to get a new deck! *sarcasm mode off*

No offence intended...but forcing newbs down to AI2? 10 electrum, 2 spins per win?

Could somebody PLEASE explain to me, why this game has to be that challenging for newbs?

I mean, this is about having FUN, enjoying the game, making progress at a moderate speed...or even faster at the beginning.

Im really seriously interested why some seem to think that grinding AI2 for common cards should be fun?
Why has there to be so much grinding anyway? Seriously, i dont understand it...
By selling old cards you get new ones and therefore proceed to AI3 to get the other cards. All done with some simple thinkin'.

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Re: This is considered an AI3 opponent? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17923.msg229474#msg229474
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2010, 08:41:14 PM »
The current AI isnt too strong. The old one was too weak. there wasnt even a point to fighting ai2 before. Now people will actually fight them.
*sarcasm mode on* oh, great...doing around 5 fights for a card is SO much fun...oh, wait...i just discovered there is a forum...but i picked the wrong element...but i dont want to sell my precious cards to build a new deck...Oh well, its SO much fun that i have to do 500 fights with AI2 to get a new deck! *sarcasm mode off*

No offence intended...but forcing newbs down to AI2? 10 electrum, 2 spins per win?

Could somebody PLEASE explain to me, why this game has to be that challenging for newbs?

I mean, this is about having FUN, enjoying the game, making progress at a moderate speed...or even faster at the beginning.

Im really seriously interested why some seem to think that grinding AI2 for common cards should be fun?
Why has there to be so much grinding anyway? Seriously, i dont understand it...
youre right. You DONT understand. All you had to do with ai3 before was rush rush rush and you would win. Thats not hard deck building. Thats not even fun. A game isnt fun if you just have to click everything in site and win. Thats monotonous.

 A game is fun when there is a challenge. Or even without a challenge, a game is fun when you have to actually think.  Refer to the new ttw study. Soon there will be unupped decks in there that work perfectly fine. The AI 3 were changed to be able to handle more things.  They just require better deck building when facing them. If you dont want to think on how to design a deck then play ai2.
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Re: This is considered an AI3 opponent? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17923.msg229486#msg229486
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2010, 08:49:28 PM »
By selling old cards you get new ones and therefore proceed to AI3 to get the other cards. All done with some simple thinkin'.
Your right...this can be done....easily...

BUT again: Why is this game forcing new players down to ONE deck at the beginning? Maybe its just me, but CCGs are for me most fun when i can toy around with decks, do this and that...maybe i am bored with mono life and want to try mono death...but wait: i sold all my death cards to afford that life deck...so i have to start from 0.

I just dont like that philosophy...but probably the two of us simply think different about the way this game should be balanced and the time new players have to spent to build a new deck.

Let me give you an example:
Seeing the Crusader brought a deck idea to my mind, i would love to test...but that deck needs some vampiric stillettos...well, fortunately enough, there are some farms in T50 (i am SO happy about any of those nice people to set them up, tyvm!), so it only took me 3 hours of grinding T50 (well, i am ambitious enough not to quit when facing a real deck, though) to collect some, as i was really lucky that someone had a stilletto/OE farm. Ok, but as I was loosing some of the fights in T50 and my version of "No land stompy" does not do EMs often, i only gained around 400 electrum...well, lets give it a try...400 should be ok to buy the missing cards...oh, wait, i want to use pendulums...24 each, crusaders 59 each and so on...ok, back to grinding again :(
Need another 500 electrum...oh, wait...AI3 just became harder and a bit slower for unupped...anyway: grinding time again :(
Another hour later, having earned another some 300 or 400 electrum (i know, could have done better^^), i stopped...it was becoming BORING. And all of this, just to build ONE deck, unupped, mostly common cards...once i have my card base improved (im up to 400some atm), i might calm down...but until then, its grinding, grinding and grinding...and i didnt even start talking about upping cards^^


youre right. You DONT understand. All you had to do with ai3 before was rush rush rush and you would win. Thats not hard deck building. Thats not even fun. A game isnt fun if you just have to click everything in site and win. Thats monotonous.

A game is fun when there is a challenge. Or even without a challenge, a game is fun when you have to actually think.  Refer to the new ttw study. Soon there will be unupped decks in there that work perfectly fine. The AI 3 were changed to be able to handle more things.  They just require better deck building when facing them. If you dont want to think on how to design a deck then play ai2.
i am completely with you, that simple "rush, rush, rush" is not fun...well, at least after some time.
 
But why do i HAVE to do this?

Cause the way the game is balanced right now...electrum/cards, even common cards, are not easy to get. AI3 have to make me think...fine with me. I already did my some hundreds of farming runs...FOR ME, its nice to see some new decks and I like the new experience they offer...

For me this is about "fun in games"... Challenge and making you think is only one part of the medal.
I once saw a pretty good lecture by sid meyer talking about game balance, difficulties and about creating a succesful game... explictly including casual gamers. The thing i am trying to point out is: Getting rewarded and making progress in the game, feeling "powerful"...simply SUCCESS in any way is a MAJOR motivation to most people...and taking a look at the casual gamers side, i think this game makes it too difficult for new players...espcially casual gamers. I really want this game to keep being succesful, as i think its really great.

Furthermore: even after you faced the challenge of AI3, put together (or copied;)) a successful deck...what are your rewards?
Now you have one successful deck...but you had to sacrifice other cards for that. Putting together a new deck will need: hated grinding!

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Re: This is considered an AI3 opponent? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17923.msg229524#msg229524
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2010, 09:15:11 PM »
You seem to misunderstood me. I never said grinding is a good thing. I think just about everyone agrees grinding is NOT a good thing.

I am saying that you should have to think in the deckbuilding process to be able to beat the opponent that is 40% of the way through the games difficulty. 50% if you dont count the sporadicness of ai4s. 

At the beginning of the game it is hard to get electrum to build a new deck. Many people restarted several times because they realized the mistakes they made and were actually in a better position when on a new account. Myself included. However, as you get working, those hard to get  :electrum become a lot easier to get. Then the only hard part is getting upped cards. I hardly ever actually faced ai3 because I went to FG grinding with an almost completely unupped deck the instant I had the electrum.

If you want to try out all types of decks we have the trainer.

And I will once again say, that you do not need upped cards to beat the new ai3. It is plenty easy to beat them with a completely unupgraded deck. You just need to adjust to the new *you cant rush me and win 99% of games* ai3.

EDIT

Thinking ahead is a good idea when selling cards. If you think you may be building a deck with that card in the near future, dont sell it. If its a card you know you are never going to use, then sell it. Its aa bad idea to sell every card you get to focus on your deck, because as you said, you have to create a completely new deck after that.
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Re: This is considered an AI3 opponent? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17923.msg229660#msg229660
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2010, 11:56:17 PM »
You seem to misunderstood me. I never said grinding is a good thing. I think just about everyone agrees grinding is NOT a good thing.

I am saying that you should have to think in the deckbuilding process to be able to beat the opponent that is 40% of the way through the games difficulty. 50% if you dont count the sporadicness of ai4s. 

At the beginning of the game it is hard to get electrum to build a new deck. Many people restarted several times because they realized the mistakes they made and were actually in a better position when on a new account. Myself included.
Well, it really seems that actually we both can agree on the major aspects :D I marked two key sentences:
 - the really hard to get :electrum, especially at the beginning.
-  the start beeing that hard, that people have restart their accounts.

I just wanted to point out, that the improvements of AI3 (which i completely agree with, can be rushed anymore that easily, but are still beatable, even for unuppeds) further consolidate this situation, which i dont find desirable. i am also not saying they need a major nerf, but some of them are just a bit too much focussed imho. Always looking in the direction of acquiring new players to the game and making them stay.

Most games I know, offer a considerable time with easy to get and nice (but not OP) rewards...this phase is really much to short in elements, imho. I cant remember anymore, but i think the quest rewards didnt earn me enough money to setup a second, common card deck...which they should imo. Make the player fight the first quests with his original cards, but allow them an easy switch to the deck they want use for the next period of playing. For me, the current balancing system is not much new player friendly....

However, as you get working, those hard to get  :electrum become a lot easier to get. Then the only hard part is getting upped cards. I hardly ever actually faced ai3 because I went to FG grinding with an almost completely unupped deck the instant I had the electrum.
Well, i did almost the same. While doing 500 pts quest, i realized, that i needed a deck that could beat AI3 quite reliable and that to afford the cards i wanted, i needed massive amounts of :electrum. So i took a break at that point, searched for the forum and this first led me to mono-shrieker, quickly followed by SGs Basic FG-Farming Bow :D I even started FG-farming with no upgrades, eventually won some ups and improved from there on...but i dont think that many players will do that?

If you want to try out all types of decks we have the trainer.
Know about Trainer (though there should be a direct link!) and you are right. I could do this. But for me its still a much better feeling to "field test" my decks...unless they are really expensive or important (like testing decks for oracle prediction). You know, if my "baby" actually works, i want to have the spoils right away...;)

Thinking ahead is a good idea when selling cards. If you think you may be building a deck with that card in the near future, dont sell it. If its a card you know you are never going to use, then sell it. Its aa bad idea to sell every card you get to focus on your deck, because as you said, you have to create a completely new deck after that.
Mostly agreed. Id even go one step further: Some day, im sure, i will want to compete in PvP more and also doing some Tournaments, maybe even trying to be recruited in a War? Of course, unupped stuff for quite some time ;)
So I need unupped cards...so the first Nova I sold was my 13th.

And I cant say " I will never use that"...e.g. sold all vodoo dolls i found first...until i needed them for a Anti-Incarnate deck. So i have become quite careful about "useless" cards ;) Even selling that Arctic squid hurt me...though i probably wont use it any time soon...but its still rare^^



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Re: This is considered an AI3 opponent? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17923.msg229681#msg229681
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2010, 12:20:06 AM »
Quote
Most games I know, offer a considerable time with easy to get and nice (but not OP) rewards...this phase is really much to short in elements, imho. I cant remember anymore, but i think the quest rewards didnt earn me enough money to setup a second, common card deck...which they should imo. Make the player fight the first quests with his original cards, but allow them an easy switch to the deck they want use for the next period of playing. For me, the current balancing system is not much new player friendly....
This I completely agree with. Ive heard Zanz has been working on a quest system, but that was months ago.
To quote myself on my reasoning for ai3 being good.
On Your End
______________
ai1-More of a tutorial than a battle.
ai2-Able to beat with just about any deck.
ai3-Needs a well constructed deck.
ai5-Need partial ups for victory
ai6-Do not proceed without a lot of upped cards
______________
On the AI's End
______________
ai1-OHH! look at the pretty colors
ai2-Took "Deck-Building 101"
ai3-Took lessons with jmdt
ai5-Screw the rules, I have money
ai6-My power level is OVER 8000!!!
I believe you are looking at new players the wrong way. What you are talking about mainly applies to knew people that have been playing a little (a couple weeks to a month).

To someone who just started the game, they will see no problem with sticking with the ai2. It seems ridiculous to people from before the latest patch since they are use to fighting ai3, but to someone just starting, they will just think that they need to make better decks to face ai3.  I have always thought it was too easy to progress from lvl 1-lvl3. It was almost as if lvl1 & 2 didnt exist. Now they will exist to the newer players.  I think making players stay at lower difficulties is good because then they understand how the game works better.
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Re: This is considered an AI3 opponent? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17923.msg229689#msg229689
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2010, 12:32:30 AM »
You seriously thought that deck was difficult?

I thought it was surprisingly devoid of rustler.

Re: This is considered an AI3 opponent? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17923.msg229749#msg229749
« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2010, 01:46:45 AM »
You know, WoW has been bleeding veterans profusely these days, thanks to the way they're dumbing down new content to satisfy new players.  The playerbase benefits, and so does their revenue, but the game itself suffers.  I personally quit because of this - I play games to be challenged strategically, and ever since Wrath came out, things have been way too easy.  Cata was just more of the same.

There's a delicate balance here that I think Zanz is trying to strike - making the game approachable to new players while still giving enough challenge and interest to keep them.  People are naturally going to disagree on where that balance lies.

On the other end of the spectrum (huge learning curve, low player retention) is a persistent world called Higher Ground, made for Neverwinter Nights.  The server is dying, thanks to a shrinking playerbase, but new players are still showing up all the time despite the game's age.  Low player retention is killing them because, even more than, say, Dungeons and Dragons, Higher Ground takes a LONG time to learn to play well.  It took me 2-3 years to even get a solid character build going and enter the final dungeons.

Coming from that environment, Elements sure looks simple... heh!

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Re: This is considered an AI3 opponent? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17923.msg229752#msg229752
« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2010, 01:49:02 AM »
You know, WoW has been bleeding veterans profusely these days, thanks to the way they're dumbing down new content to satisfy new players.  The playerbase benefits, and so does their revenue, but the game itself suffers.  I personally quit because of this - I play games to be challenged strategically, and ever since Wrath came out, things have been way too easy.  Cata was just more of the same.

There's a delicate balance here that I think Zanz is trying to strike - making the game approachable to new players while still giving enough challenge and interest to keep them.  People are naturally going to disagree on where that balance lies.
THIS!
It is extremely frustrating to have to work hard to get to where you are at, and then a game update make it easy, and all that work go to waste.  Ive come close to quitting many games because of this.
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Re: This is considered an AI3 opponent? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17923.msg229757#msg229757
« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2010, 01:53:18 AM »
Ninja-edited my post with more stuff.

It wasn't the frustration that made me quit, though.  I don't care if I work for 2985632 months to get Super Epic Deluxe Secret Flying Dragon Mount and then some newbie snatches it up in a couple weeks; I care about going into the Big Evil Lair and actually having to form a strategy with my teammates or get toasted.

Icecrown Citadel, the "ultimate" raid dungeon in Wrath (well, until Ruby Sanctum, the outcast raid) was so simple and easy I could pug the first half of it every week with newbies.  That's boredom, not fun.

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Re: This is considered an AI3 opponent? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17923.msg229890#msg229890
« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2010, 05:24:50 AM »
All you had to do with ai3 before was rush rush rush and you would win. Thats not hard deck building. Thats not even fun. A game isnt fun if you just have to click everything in site and win. Thats monotonous.
These AI3s are different how? In fact, rushing is even more important now, because these new ai3s have bunch of control cards.

 

blarg: