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Offline ZephyrPhantom

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Re: This is considered an AI3 opponent? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17923.msg228802#msg228802
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2010, 12:24:09 AM »
Was that the intent of the AI3 change then, to make you have upped decks to be able to beat it? Ive only played a few games myself but the reward/risk ratio seems to be a bit high. If AI3 is still intended for farming then new players have little hope of that unless the roll percentage is upped in proportion.
If you read my full post, you'll notice I say Un-upped shrieker rush still works. No-land stompy is a viable option as well. Mono-life adrena rush is also a decent deck to choose and go for. Upped decks always had a advantage for being upped and therefore faster. No, AI3 is still newbie friendly, just less newb friendly then it was.

It was also a much needed update since they didn't use any of the new cards since Wings/Steam machine, and didn't use pendulums either. Most of them also give a neat chance for rares now that T50 will be gone later.
Whoops, I was in a rush and didn't notice. Sorry.  And what do you mean T50 will be gone?

Offline Dm

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Re: This is considered an AI3 opponent? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17923.msg228805#msg228805
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2010, 12:27:24 AM »
Was that the intent of the AI3 change then, to make you have upped decks to be able to beat it? Ive only played a few games myself but the reward/risk ratio seems to be a bit high. If AI3 is still intended for farming then new players have little hope of that unless the roll percentage is upped in proportion.
If you read my full post, you'll notice I say Un-upped shrieker rush still works. No-land stompy is a viable option as well. Mono-life adrena rush is also a decent deck to choose and go for. Upped decks always had a advantage for being upped and therefore faster. No, AI3 is still newbie friendly, just less newb friendly then it was.

It was also a much needed update since they didn't use any of the new cards since Wings/Steam machine, and didn't use pendulums either. Most of them also give a neat chance for rares now that T50 will be gone later.
Whoops, I was in a rush and didn't notice. Sorry.  And what do you mean T50 will be gone?

http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17265.0.html

Re: This is considered an AI3 opponent? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17923.msg228806#msg228806
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2010, 12:29:11 AM »
Quote
Was that the intent of the AI3 change then, to make you have upped decks to be able to beat it? Ive only played a few games myself but the reward/risk ratio seems to be a bit high. If AI3 is still intended for farming then new players have little hope of that unless the roll percentage is upped in proportion.
AI3 used to be steamrolled by any decently-made unupped deck.  So yes, now you have some losses thrown in there, doesn't mean it's hopeless or you have to have an upped deck.  By that logic, we should all quit farming FGs because even upped decks suffer losses often.

Farming doesn't mean winning every game.

Offline Dragoon

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Re: This is considered an AI3 opponent? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17923.msg228845#msg228845
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2010, 01:38:48 AM »
I haven't played the new AIs a bunch yet, but better built decks are good in my opinion.  I never really liked the idea of Aggro decks with no PC or CC cards being able to walk all over these AI3 decks.  People just need to make more well-rounded decks now instead of straight creature rushes.  These decks still aren't as strong as they could be since they have close to 40 cards and fewer than 6 copies of key cards usually.

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Re: This is considered an AI3 opponent? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17923.msg229063#msg229063
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2010, 11:46:34 AM »
The difficulty was upped considerably, of course.
...
AI3 isn't to be fail decks, it's supposed to be harder.
...
So no, it's still pretty easy and rushable with upped decks, but with un-upped, it becomes quite hard.
Your last words...thats the key for me! Dont get me wrong: I personally have no problem with beating AI3 anytime, but i noticed the raise in difficulty...

I think the current balacing has some major flaws concerning the "fun-factor":

The new Players point of view: The need for quite a high amount of electrum to even collect common cards...so you NEED to grind/farm - especially as a new player -> so in order to be at least a bit succesful you have to concentrate first on "the one, very good farming deck" - unupped of course -> the new AI3 makes this even more vital AND makes gaining your first 10K electrum quite hard and time comsuming without much progress...in conclusion: the current AI3 makes it harder for new players to even collect a solid base of common cards while limiting them to only one working deck for quite some time -> not much fun -> for new players there should be a MODERATELY difficult way to acquire a solid collection of common cards to allow them building the deck they like to have.

The Vetereans point of view: Even when your playing quite some time, i imagine there are always some other cards that could be upped, so constantly need some electrum...so your looking for the best/fastest way to gain electrum...and it seems that speed farming AI3 offers the most gain - and THATS WRONG!

imho AI3 should be a moderate challenge for new players and offer suitable rewards for new players...but fighting against T50 (or T500, when its implemented) should offer much better rewards, so that these really good and effective upped farming decks wont raise the difficulty for new players...it should always be much more worth it to take a chance on higher levels, then to constantly win fast on lower levels.

Looking around it the forums and taking a look at the latest patch (love the new cards, btw, great work!), i more and more get the impression that the veterans point of view is dominating...which might cause some problems acquiring new players to this great game....

Offline Dm

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Re: This is considered an AI3 opponent? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17923.msg229068#msg229068
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2010, 11:52:36 AM »
And as I have said, all un-upped farmers still works, they are just less speedy. I took a week to get myself my first RoL/Hope, and I'd take the same amount of time to get it again. No, it's just that it became slightly harder.

Offline rowcla

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Re: This is considered an AI3 opponent? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17923.msg229082#msg229082
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2010, 12:35:15 PM »
I just recorded the "Life Queen" (Life/Air duo) deck...if anyone of us had proposed a that much focussed deck, i would have "way too strong" for AI3...its pretty much the Fire Queen, but i think with Hope almost stronger^^ - not having a fast deck or not enough creature control - your dead.

Just my 2 cents...
well it still is missing a false gods advantages at least
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Offline Dm

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Re: This is considered an AI3 opponent? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17923.msg229085#msg229085
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2010, 12:41:50 PM »
I just recorded the "Life Queen" (Life/Air duo) deck...if anyone of us had proposed a that much focussed deck, i would have "way too strong" for AI3...its pretty much the Fire Queen, but i think with Hope almost stronger^^ - not having a fast deck or not enough creature control - your dead.

Just my 2 cents...
well it still is missing a false gods advantages at least

A lot of them. 3x Mark, Over 60 deck, over 6 copies of one card, 2 draw per turn, all upped.

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Re: This is considered an AI3 opponent? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17923.msg229204#msg229204
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2010, 04:43:16 PM »
I think this is the perfect spot for ai3.

On Your End
______________
ai1-More of a tutorial than a battle.
ai2-Able to beat with just about any deck.
ai3-Needs a well constructed deck.
ai5-Need partial ups for victory
ai6-Do not proceed without a lot of upped cards
______________
On the AI's End
______________
ai1-OHH! look at the pretty colors
ai2-Took "Deck-Building 101"
ai3-Took lessons with jmdt
ai5-Screw the rules, I have money
ai6-My power level is OVER 8000!!!
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Re: This is considered an AI3 opponent? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17923.msg229288#msg229288
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2010, 06:08:15 PM »
No, AI3 is still newbie friendly, just less newb friendly then it was.
Sorry but Im not really sure about this, friend.

I also think AI3 is an environment for newbie players. Veterans play it because of easy fast wins and good money reward. Its more challenging now, the veterans may like it, but for newbie, it seems too hard. If newbies are supposed to fight AI2 instead, increase its gains. Fresh players need cards to start constructing decks, and AI2 is not the place, with 2 spins. If veterans are supposed to play AI5, increase its gains, and lets let AI3 for newbies.

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Re: This is considered an AI3 opponent? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17923.msg229299#msg229299
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2010, 06:19:51 PM »
No, AI3 is still newbie friendly, just less newb friendly then it was.
Sorry but Im not really sure about this, friend.

I also think AI3 is an environment for newbie players. Veterans play it because of easy fast wins and good money reward. Its more challenging now, the veterans may like it, but for newbie, it seems too hard. If newbies are supposed to fight AI2 instead, increase its gains. Fresh players need cards to start constructing decks, and AI2 is not the place, with 2 spins. If veterans are supposed to play AI5, increase its gains, and lets let AI3 for newbies.
Fact is AI5 is still pretty useless as it is now because the mix of upped and un-upped + 200 hp make it a bad place to rush. Most Vets still stay in the AI3. And yes, I'm afraid that farming AI2 is the only viable way for newbies now. But they need the money, so if they just do smart decisions and go ahead and build decent decks, they can move ahead pretty fast. PVP is also a good way to win money even though it's slower.

In a way, I agree AI2 needs a small buff in reward, but I disagree in another way as that would result in much faster kills for Vet's, thus making the score gap between the two even larger then it is now.

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Re: This is considered an AI3 opponent? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17923.msg229385#msg229385
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2010, 07:38:44 PM »
The current AI isnt too strong. The old one was too weak. there wasnt even a point to fighting ai2 before. Now people will actually fight them.
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