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Offline RapidStar_

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Re: Potluck Rules - Rule Suggestions http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59021.msg1273679#msg1273679
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2018, 08:53:00 am »
I had felt like using potluck rules sometime, but always got the impression that various rules are real funstoppers. Should we maybe replace some rules?
Please tell me what rules look/have been annoying to you and what you would rather have (doing only either of the two, critizicing old rules or suggesting new rules is fine too).

Here are some things I think should be taken out:

Column A:
3. The fat: 50-card deck
4. The morbidly obese: 60-card deck
6. The pillarless: No pillars
10. The slow: 45+ cards, Golden Hourglass, Golden Nymph and Shard of Bravery banned
11. The precise: Exactly 17 pendulums

The pillar ones are a bit boring, but they are easily able to be played around so not the worst thing.

Column B:
5. The yin-yang: Opposing duos must be used (Light/Darkness, Entropy/Gravity, Time/Aether etc.); you can't use both Black Hole/Amber Nymph and Discord in the same deck
7. The 6: Exactly 6 copies of each card (not including pillars/pends)
8. The problemsolver: No cards that cost 2, 3, 6, 8 or 9 quantum

Column C:
1. The incarcerated: Cannot use Air, Life and Light cards, except pillars/pendulums
2. The knight: Cannot use Darkness, Death, Entropy and Aether cards, except pillars/pendulums
4. The wishy-washy: No permanents (other than pillars and pendulums)
7. The nub-beloved: No creatures except Dragons
12. The balanced: must have an equal number of creatures and spells.


These are just my thoughts, some may disagree. I could definitely add more in but that would pretty much be changing the whole table of rules which is not what you are looking to do. I took out the ones that seem to take away the fun aspect of PvPing. I haven't thought of any suggestions as of now but will try to think of some in the near future.

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Re: Potluck Rules - Rule Suggestions http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59021.msg1273709#msg1273709
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2018, 08:28:18 pm »
As an ex-Tournament Organizer who helped rework the Potluck rules at one point, this feels nostalgic in a good way. While a single rule may not be limiting, in combination with others, they can create a situation where one deck is superior to all others, thus everyone will use that one deck.

We already did a fair amount of research back in the time with Spike and Dm, so I don't have much input left. For reference, here are the original rules that we reworked:
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/tournament-archive/weekly-tournament-may-25th-speedbuilding-potluck-rules-unupgraded/msg1073277/#msg1073277

Spike later discovered though that specific rules combined with others can remove too much challenge if they don't introduce a noteworthy limitation. With every change, try to aim for the sweet spot that's neither too easy nor very limiting. Experimenting with new rules in league matches might be the best way to go.
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Offline kaempfer13

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Re: Potluck Rules - Rule Suggestions http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59021.msg1273761#msg1273761
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2018, 04:01:14 pm »
I had felt like using potluck rules sometime, but always got the impression that various rules are real funstoppers. Should we maybe replace some rules?
Please tell me what rules look/have been annoying to you and what you would rather have (doing only either of the two, critizicing old rules or suggesting new rules is fine too).

Here are some things I think should be taken out:

Column A:
3. The fat: 50-card deck
4. The morbidly obese: 60-card deck
6. The pillarless: No pillars
10. The slow: 45+ cards, Golden Hourglass, Golden Nymph and Shard of Bravery banned

11. The precise: Exactly 17 pendulums

The pillar ones are a bit boring, but they are easily able to be played around so not the worst thing.

Column B:
5. The yin-yang: Opposing duos must be used (Light/Darkness, Entropy/Gravity, Time/Aether etc.); you can't use both Black Hole/Amber Nymph and Discord in the same deck
7. The 6: Exactly 6 copies of each card (not including pillars/pends)
8. The problemsolver: No cards that cost 2, 3, 6, 8 or 9 quantum

Column C:
1. The incarcerated: Cannot use Air, Life and Light cards, except pillars/pendulums
2. The knight: Cannot use Darkness, Death, Entropy and Aether cards, except pillars/pendulums
4. The wishy-washy: No permanents (other than pillars and pendulums)
7. The nub-beloved: No creatures except Dragons
12. The balanced: must have an equal number of creatures and spells.



These are just my thoughts, some may disagree. I could definitely add more in but that would pretty much be changing the whole table of rules which is not what you are looking to do. I took out the ones that seem to take away the fun aspect of PvPing. I haven't thought of any suggestions as of now but will try to think of some in the near future.
I agree with the orangered ones.
A: pillarless always creates confusion with pendulums still allowed. Other than causing confusion with pends it doesnt really do much.
The obese and the slow (as well as the fat) both encourage slower decks and tournaments take long enough as is. Im thinking to maybe keep the least obstrusive one of them for varieties sake (nobody is stopping you from trying a 50 card rush though its less optimal). The fact that it is exact deck size makes rt/eternity mandatory for stalls, so it kinda balances out a bit.
I dont really mind the precise, 17 quanta is definitely enough for most 30 card decks and if its too much quanta just make your deck a little bigger.

B: The sixer dumbed down every potluck i participated in. dims and ghost tend to be too good, theres always someone that tries to make ffq work, sometimes other 6 cost shields/eternity may work out and thats pretty much the meta from that rule alone. Definitely wouldnt miss it. Oops you actually meant the 6. Well its kinda uninteresting and mostly just discourages techcards. Wouldnt miss it either. The other 2 seem mostly balanced to me, they are very restrictive but in possibly interesting ways.

C: I dont really see a major issue with these, they leave 2/3rds+ of the game intact and do mix things up a bit.

As an ex-Tournament Organizer who helped rework the Potluck rules at one point, this feels nostalgic in a good way. While a single rule may not be limiting, in combination with others, they can create a situation where one deck is superior to all others, thus everyone will use that one deck.

We already did a fair amount of research back in the time with Spike and Dm, so I don't have much input left. For reference, here are the original rules that we reworked:
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/tournament-archive/weekly-tournament-may-25th-speedbuilding-potluck-rules-unupgraded/msg1073277/#msg1073277

Spike later discovered though that specific rules combined with others can remove too much challenge if they don't introduce a noteworthy limitation. With every change, try to aim for the sweet spot that's neither too easy nor very limiting. Experimenting with new rules in league matches might be the best way to go.

I read through the thread and didnt really see much discussion of the rules besides impossible combinations. Could you point me to where you actually came up with the rules and discussed them? Im especially interested in Spikes combinations.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 04:06:50 pm by kaempfer13 »
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Offline Submachine

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Re: Potluck Rules - Rule Suggestions http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59021.msg1273787#msg1273787
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2018, 11:02:41 am »
I read through the thread and didnt really see much discussion of the rules besides impossible combinations. Could you point me to where you actually came up with the rules and discussed them? Im especially interested in Spikes combinations.
The discussion was in the Tournament Organizer folder, which I can no longer access. There was a thread where we came up with new ideas and discussed balance. It was probably around mid-2014 if you have access to it. However, Spike's input about taking out unchallenging rules was later, can't remember where and when.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 11:04:26 am by Submachine »
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