Poll

Make a choice. Tick,ONLY if the answer is yes.

Do you agree that politics is dirty?
Do you belief that a clean government exist?
If you were a politician, will you resort to dirty tricks in dire situations?
Can you ascertain that people will ONLY support a clean government?
Are the politicians in your country doing their job?
Will you get involve in politics someday?
IF you were a politician now, did you choose this path to 'CHANGE' your country?
OR just that you wish to be looked up to by the people?
Will you stand against injustice and corruption in election?
Will you blindly support a party just because your entire family is supporting it?
will you vote for person instead of political party?
will you vote for a political party instead of person?

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Offline neurolepticsTopic starter

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Ugly Politics Revealed? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49029.msg1066982#msg1066982
« on: May 06, 2013, 12:02:38 am »
Do you agree current politics in the world has just gone to the darker side. Comment.....
Are elections feud by alleged misuse of power, corruption, money politics. Can the people's voices be heard?

A clean election is not entirely possible as man are full of greed and jealousy from either sides, government or opposition.
Basically, if our beliefs are challenged by contradictory evidence, they only get stronger, because we just really, really don't want to admit that we're wrong. So stop trying to argue logically and fairly. If you absolutely must win an argument, use deception, coercion, blackmail, or other dirty tricks as needed. Otherwise, just don't even bother wasting your time and effort.

I shall discuss the case in Malaysia. However, there's no true or wrong.
Spoiler for Hidden:
1) This is what opposition claimed
-The opposition was already declared won in certain places, a blackout
-additional votes received.
-This is cheating

In view of the ruling government
- we acknowledge 'Earth hour'
-The additional votes received late from other polling rooms.
-Additional polling centres put up heavy burdens on the electrical supply.

2)There are other issues as well,
Opposition claimed
-Free identification cards given to foreigners in recent days with out-of -proportion no. of ICs distributed; some bear the same no. as the other, some were given digits that point to a female but is indeed a male (our ICs end with either even or odd no.), brought to polling station by police lorries, given money and asked to vote for certain parties. All these were proven as claimed (youtube should have lotsa these)
- The PM in Bangladesh affirms that this is a positive move to reduce poverty in the country

The government however
-claimed that they are given citizenship and are legal voters. This move itself however is legal from the aspect of law.

There have already been a couple topics on the Malaysian government posted there, although none posted recently from what I could tell. Search of course before posting ^^;
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=337447 is an example of a topic from 2012 posted there.
~TT~

Anyone will stand against any corrupted government as well as misleading claims from oppositions. We are the people and we deserve a good nation, we deserve to have representatives that serves the peoples' interest. The world will certainly be a good and nice place to stay if all lives in harmony.

This is strictly for entertainment
http://youtu.be/9yYRW9mt1AE

Well, despite all that, politics determine the progress of a country
« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 02:40:24 am by neuroleptics »
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Offline xsindomanx

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Re: Ugly Politics Revealed? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49029.msg1067034#msg1067034
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2013, 02:02:13 am »
Some pretty tough questions to answer right off the bat in the poll..

Anyways, I do agree that politics is ugly and dirty, but I don't believe at all that it's a 'new' thing.

The situation in Malaysia you described has already happened in other countries. In Canada's last election, certain people were sent an automated phone message where they were told to go to another polling station that was fake. And in the Bush vs. Al Gore election years ago, there was some controversy around that. (I was underage when both these events happened, so excuse me if I'm incorrect).

I try to believe my government is clean, but such is quite difficult. I remember that Bloomberg reported the new Chinese president and his family of having millions in assets (shortly after Bloomberg was blocked in China), and corruption in North America is fairly well known / assumed.
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Offline Thereallongdono

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Re: Ugly Politics Revealed? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49029.msg1067057#msg1067057
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2013, 02:47:15 am »
These were easy for me to answer as I hold election party position in the Republican party. ( I did not vote ROBAMNEY, I wrote in the only candidate who could remain in congress for close to 30 years and still be incorruptible. Ron Paul! )
I worked with a couple local campaigns and ignored the presidential election unless I could convince someone to vote for any 3rd party.
None of my guys won and every last one was out spent at least 3 to one and upwards of 50-1 in one race where I supported an independent for congress.
I considered and still may consider a run for city council. Not to win, though that would be a bonus but to educate the public on exactly how bad things really are. I will run on a message not on votes and if that happens to win me the election then you will have an anarchist for Dubuque City council. ( Can you say filibuster? )
« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 02:49:26 am by Thereallongdono »

Offline memimemi

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Re: Ugly Politics Revealed? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49029.msg1069495#msg1069495
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2013, 09:34:36 am »
neuroleptics: before I respond to the points I think I'm seeing, I'd like to clarify a few things (there seems to be a bit of a language barrier; I *think* I know what you're asking/saying, but it's just unclear enough to be confusing):

1. If politics (seemingly defined, here, as the struggle to control the coercive powers of the State) has gone to the 'darker side,' how would we know?  Are there any examples of 'NOT darker side' to which we may compare and contrast?

2. 'A clean election is not entirely possible. . . '   Once again, what would be a 'clean election,' whether from a real life example, historical records, or idealized, to which we can compare?

3. 'We are the people and we deserve a good nation, we deserve to have representatives that serves the peoples' interest. . . '  What, for the purpose of responding, would make up a 'good nation,' and how does that differ from what is in place, now?  How can a representative act, that will fulfill your criteria for serving the peoples' interest?  I.e: does it serve the peoples' interest to go to war?  Which people are served, which are not?  If a head of state knows, with 100% surety, that another state is planning a nuclear strike, but to stop it would require the deaths of thousands of troops, which peoples' interests ought be considered more important - the troops, the populace of your country, the populace of the aggressor nation, or some other, perhaps?


Tentative answer: politics is no dirtier than ever; in fact, the current trend toward decentralized power structures (at least, here in the West), along with the vast quantity of information availible to anyone who cares to research a particular candidate/party/whathaveyou, forces more (not total, but more) transparency and honesty in politics.  Politicians still lie about each other; the difference, now, is that the lies are easily fact-checked and debunked or amended.

Also, candidates *do* represent their constituents, I contend; the problem being that the odds against of any group of people agreeing in all ways about all issues, at all times, are astronomical.  Candidate A may represent my views on, say, gun control - but be completely at variance with my views on science education.  Candidate B may push for school reforms I feel important - but otherwise be what I'd consider a reprehensible human being.  They *both* represent me, to a degree - to expect either to represent me entirely would not only be silly, but would undermine my agency as a citizen, capable of effecting change in society.

TL;DR: clarify your questions, please?  This is interesting...
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Offline neurolepticsTopic starter

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Re: Ugly Politics Revealed? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49029.msg1069591#msg1069591
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2013, 03:47:21 pm »
1. If politics (seemingly defined, here, as the struggle to control the coercive powers of the State) has gone to the 'darker side,' how would we know?  Are there any examples of 'NOT darker side' to which we may compare and contrast?
darker side as compared to NOT you say. The examples are corruption and misuse of power. While it's pretty obvious that this did not just happen recently, but the prevalence has increased. 

2. 'A clean election is not entirely possible. . . '   Once again, what would be a 'clean election,' whether from a real life example, historical records, or idealized, to which we can compare?
Since the democracy was introduced, although people are given chances to choose their leader, many politicians abused as evidenced by money politics and also relationships. Many were blinded by money that they do not vote for the best option(this is another big issue regarding morality btw); instead, they vote for the ones that gave them ...say, financial benefit.

3. What would make up a 'good nation'? how does that differ from what it is in place now?  How can a representative act, that will fulfill your criteria for serving the peoples' interest?  I.e: does it serve the peoples' interest to go to war?  Which people are served, which are not?  If a head of state knows, with 100% surety, that another state is planning a nuclear strike, but to stop it would require the deaths of thousands of troops, which peoples' interests ought be considered more important - the troops, the populace of your country, the populace of the aggressor nation, or some other, perhaps?
This is meant to be discussed. My opinion is the representative takes note of what is happening around, NOT just sit in office. A good representative will reply to the needs in the society, plan development during his tenure and NOT just remain silent and make himself know to public only when the next election draws near, acting kind, donate money BUT with lots of advertisement.

Your example makes no sense as it's another issue by itself and opinions differ regarding morality.
1)Some said obligation is obligation. If you have the power to choose the good, and you do not, it's a crime.
2) Some said we must avoid unnecessary casualties
How about putting it this way, while soldiers are meant to protect the country, you withdraw the soldiers so that none of your troop is sacrificed and left your people to die and suffer just because you think you can't win? Or do you fight because you are a soldier and you carry people's hope and while you have the ability to fight the enemy, most commoners don't?

Tentative answer: politics is no dirtier than ever; in fact, the current trend toward decentralized power structures (at least, here in the West), along with the vast quantity of information available to anyone who cares to research a particular candidate/party/whathaveyou, forces more (not total, but more) transparency and honesty in politics.  Politicians still lie about each other; the difference, now, is that the lies are easily fact-checked and debunked or amended.
Disagree. Politics is no dirtier than ever? Like what you just did, I can ask this: Is there any comparative examples to proof that? While we are living in an era with talented people and robust information technology, there is no evidence that the politics can become more transparent. Most dirty acts like corruption are covered up, and even if it were exposed, it came too late and the court will just rule that there's not enough evidence. The politicians that hold the power can make sure themselves are safe, put blame on the others that serve under them and how do you say it's amended when the culprit can't be judged as he hold so much power that anyone who opposes eventually suffer?

« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 03:51:20 pm by neuroleptics »
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Offline sixers

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Re: Ugly Politics Revealed? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49029.msg1069674#msg1069674
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2013, 08:46:36 pm »
Yeah, there's no real choice in politics in America. We have an illusion that we are choosing our leaders but it doesn't matter which candidate gets elected to office, the republican or the democrat, nothing will change.

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Re: Ugly Politics Revealed? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49029.msg1070004#msg1070004
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2013, 08:35:55 pm »

[clipped - lack of response to the questions posed

Disagree. Politics is no dirtier than ever? Like what you just did, I can ask this: Is there any comparative examples to proof that? While we are living in an era with talented people and robust information technology, there is no evidence that the politics can become more transparent. Most dirty acts like corruption are covered up, and even if it were exposed, it came too late and the court will just rule that there's not enough evidence. The politicians that hold the power can make sure themselves are safe, put blame on the others that serve under them and how do you say it's amended when the culprit can't be judged as he hold so much power that anyone who opposes eventually suffer?

Sure.  Despite your non-answer, and reiteration of what might be valid points (if you'd care to expand on them), I'll try to answer.

First: existential proofs of the internet's power to expose (and, more importantly, proliferate information about) corruption:

a) Arab Spring
b) the current Syrian civil war
c) Wikileaks
d) any number of political candidates' records of actions/votes/speeches being spread and dissected via YouTube, etc
e) the current battles between copyleft advocates and the MPAA, worldwide
f) fast, efficient dissemination of knowledge from various charitible/NGO groups (Amnesty Int'l, Medicins sans Frontiers, etc)
g) is that enough, or need I go on?

Second: logical inconsistancies in your position:

a) if, as you say, 'Most dirty acts like corruption are covered up,' then either a) the coverup is unsuccessful, hence your knowing about it (perhaps via teh webz?); or b) the coverup is successful, in which case you wouldn't know about it.  You seem to be choosing b) - the argument from ignorance.  Basically, 'I *know* there's something, but I don't know what, therefore....'

Third: defeatism:

'The politicians that hold the power can make sure themselves are safe, put blame on the others that serve under them and how do you say it's amended when the culprit can't be judged as he hold so much power that anyone who opposes eventually suffer?'

So, you've given up, before even demonstrating knowledge of the systems you claim to dislike?  Okay, fine - but then don't bother being angry about it, either - the culprits *can't* be judged, right?

...which, in one sentance, pretty much tries to negate the entirety of civilized human endeavour, since politics rose up beyond the stature of tribal elder.

Listen: I agree that corruption exists; I'd have to be a right fool not to.  Where I take issue is with the assumption that things are somehow getting worse, despite the rising standard of living for *all* humans, worldwide - despite the corruption in the world.  We're getting better, as a species, of identifying and weeding out problematic leaders.  Giving up on that noble purpose, just because it sometimes seems difficult, is a direct '[expletive removed] YOU!' to all of those who dedicate their lives to making the world a better place.

For things to get 'better,' you must first act as though it's a possibility.  Even if what you think is 'better' disagrees with what I think.

TL;DR: Things aren't getting worse in the world; there was no perfect past, there will be no perfect future - but we can make things better, if we're careful to identify problems as clearly and distictly as possible.  I suspect that, were you to do so, much of the frustration you're exhibiting would melt away, in direct relation to the number of specific, soluble, problems you identify.
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Re: Ugly Politics Revealed? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49029.msg1070020#msg1070020
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2013, 09:03:05 pm »
Yes politics are dirty -- any kind of leadership of a country is.
To put it simply:
Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely

You may argue and be correct, that as History advances politics gets "uglier" --  more corrupt.
It is simply, because in ancient times of city-states of a few hundred people, the leadership had much less power, than today's governments have.
As the amount of power increases, so does the level of corruption.


BTW, an interesting article about Why power corrupts:
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/Why-Power-Corrupts-169804606.html
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 09:07:45 pm by Zso_Zso »
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