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Offline AnonymousRevivalTopic starter

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Living in Libya better than the United States? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48210.msg1056863#msg1056863
« on: April 04, 2013, 03:50:11 am »
Now I'm pretty sure we all know about the overrule of Gaddafi and how there was immense hostility at the time.

And sure the US has higher standard of living and GDP per capita. But Libya is really improving tremendously.

North Africa is significantly better than Central or Southern Africa because it was primarily under Roman rule. And it all started when Septimus Severus, a Roman Emperor started to develop North Africa, especially Tripoli, his hometown and the capital of Libya.

With this advantage, it is no surprise that Libya became the country with the highest standard of living in the African Mainland, and 2nd in Africa, just after Seychelles.

The causes are due to its economic, political and social status.

For example, infrastructure is really good compared to the rest of Africa and is open to foreign trade, making it quite highly developed due to profits earned.

Women have equal rights, and it is in practice, not just a doctrine.

Free healthcare and education straight from kindergarten to college. Its healthcare quality standards are so high, it is compared as equal to that of Europe. And if Libyan healthcare couldn't treat certain patients, they are allowed to travel anywhere, its transportation costs, accommodation and other expenses are completely free of charge!

Due to abundance in oil, Gaddafi gives $500 to every person's bank account at the age of 18 or above every MONTH! And 'just married' couples get $60000 to do whatever they want to! Furthermore, people are given free land and agricultural equipment and materials if they want to farm.

No one is homeless in Libya, virtually every Libyan citizen has a place to stay.

I'm pretty sure I would be counter argued with examples how the US is much greater but I just want to resolve this question. Although Libya doesn't claim to be a democracy, the Libyans have a direct participatory democracy based on People’s Conferences, and I'm pretty sure the US isn't that "democratic". While this may lead to controversial arguments, I hope that other people's opinions would be respected.
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Offline whatifidogetcaught?

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Re: Living in Libya better than the United States? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48210.msg1056865#msg1056865
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2013, 03:52:51 am »
Well this overview of Libya is rather impressive. It's nice to see all of the pros, but would it be possible to replicate cons as well? (and then do a pros and cons for America)

That would give a true comparison. At this glance, however, Libya looks very nice for a country many people probably believe is a third-world country.
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Offline AnonymousRevivalTopic starter

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Re: Living in Libya better than the United States? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48210.msg1056870#msg1056870
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2013, 03:59:14 am »
Well, as mentioned, the US does indeed have a way better standard of living and GDP per capita than Libya.

Also, Libya was under a civil unrest in 2011. And its economic freedom index (the people's "freedom" towards economic related things such as starting of firms) is really low, lower than China. Also, its technological readiness index, the ability to adapt to new technologies is really poor as well.
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Offline Marsu

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Re: Living in Libya better than the United States? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48210.msg1056909#msg1056909
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2013, 11:41:13 am »
I'm sorry to word it that way, but I rarely see more naive Posts.
There is no islamic land in the world where any sane Person would want to live.
I'm too lazy to translate it/explain myself and the article in english language seems to ignore such unimportant things as human rights, so I just copy&paste the german text in here and only give very rough tl;dr's.

Scource: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyen

[...] Die Senussi sind eine religiöse Bruderschaft mit weltlichem Herrschaftsanspruch in der Kyrenaika. [...] In den letzten Jahren ist landesweit eine verstärkte Hinwendung zum orthodoxen Islam zu verzeichnen; die Verschleierung der Frau nimmt zu. Seit den 1980er Jahren werden im Untergrund operierende Gruppen wie Muslimbrüder, at-Takfir wa’l-Higra, Hisbollah, Al-Dschihad und ihre religiöse Tendenz zur Vereinnahmung der Politik als islamistische Gefahr für Libyen bezeichnet. Seit der Mitte der Neunziger Jahre ist auch die Libysche Islamische Kampfgruppe vor allem in der Kyrenaika
aktiv. [...]

Trend: islamism, more and more women yashmaked, extremist muslim groups keep gaining more influence

[...] Die meisten christlichen Kirchen wurden nach der Machtübernahme Gaddafis 1969 geschlossen. Die Nachfahren der nach den Pogromen von 1948 verbliebenen etwa 7000 jüdischen Libyer emigrierten nach dem Sechstagekrieg. [...]

Almost all Christian churches closed, basically each and every jew had to leave the country fearing for his or her life

[...] Dennoch liegt die Analphabetenrate der Frauen noch bei 29 % und die der Männer bei 8 % [...]

Illiterate persons: Men 8%, Women 29% (Oops, where does that difference come from?)

[...] Die Rechtsgrundlage der libyschen Verfassung war der Koran (Artikel 2). Im Personen-, Familien- und Erbrecht (Gesetz von 1984) sowie seit 1994 auch im Strafrecht galt das islamische Recht (Scharia). Seit 1973 war Homosexualität strafbar (Gesetz Nr. 70/1973). Die Verleumdung wegen Unzucht/Ehebruch (qadhf) war strafbar nach Gesetz Nr. 52/1973. Zina (Ehebruch und Unzucht) war nach Gesetz Nr. 70/1973 strafbar und wurde mit 100 Stockhieben bestraft. [...]

No clear new legal system yet, the old system that is a) still the basis for current judicature and will b) most likely not be much different from the new one, if at all: Sharia. (homosexuality = crime, accusation (!) of fornication = punishment for the accused person (In reality: Almost only for women)) - punishment meaning violent punishment, by the way.

[...] Laut der Organisation Reporter ohne Grenzen liegt Libyen auf Platz 131 von 179 Ländern auf der Rangliste der Pressefreiheit.[39] [...]

"Reporters Without Borders": Libya ranks 131 out of 179 countries in the ranking of freedom of press.

[...] Viele Menschenrechtsorganisationen wie Amnesty International berichten, dass auch unter den neuen Behörden, die nach dem Bürgerkrieg in Libyen an die Macht gelangten, die Menschenrechte in Libyen stark eingeschränkt sind. Durch Folter sollen mindestens zwölf Gaddafi-Anhänger getötet worden sein.[29]Menschen mit schwarzer Hautfarbe werden diskriminiert, da diese oft pauschal als Söldner Gaddafis angesehen werden.[30] In der Stadt Sebha kommt es immer wieder zu gewalttätigen Ausschreitungen gegenüber den Tubu. Es sollen bereits dutzende Menschen gestorben sein.[31] Auch die Organisation Open Doors erklärte, dass inzwischen in Libyen Christen verfolgt werden. Andere als islamische religiöse Versammlungen sind verboten. 2011 wurden mehrere Christen aufgrund ihres Glaubens inhaftiert.[32] Es kommt zu Übergriffen von Salafisten auf christliche Kopten. So wurden Anfang 2013 in Bengasi 100 Christen verschleppt und misshandelt.[33]Schätzungen zufolge sind landesweit mehr als 6.000 Menschen verhaftet, bisher ohne offizielle Anklage oder Aussicht auf einen Prozess.[34] In den Internierungszentren der Stadt Misrata, die nicht dem Nationalen Übergangsrat, sondern der dortigen Revolutionsbrigade unterstehen, werden Gefangene gefoltert. Die Hilfsorganisation Ärzte ohne Grenzen stellte bei insgesamt 115 Gefangenen Verletzungen durch Folter fest.[35] Die Folterverhöre, von denen einige tödlich verliefen, wurden vom militärischen Geheimdienst NASS geführt. Die Behörden vor Ort hatten die Forderungen der Hilfsorganisation nach einem Ende der Folter ignoriert.[36] Nach Bekanntwerden des Foltertods des ehemaligen libyschen Botschafters in Frankreich in Sintan erklärte Justizminister Ali Hamida Aschur, die Verantwortlichen
würden vor Gericht gestellt; die von Folter-Vorwürfen betroffenen Gefängnisse befänden sich überwiegend nicht unter der Kontrolle des Übergangsrates.[37][38] [...]

Amnesty international: Human rights strongly decreased after the "Arabic Spring", many followers of Gaddafi killed by torture, strong discrimination against people of black skin colour, douzens of Tubu (local minority) killed since the Arabic Spring, Christians are hunted in Libya, non-islamic religious meetings are forbidden, 2011 there was an incident of Christians being imprisoned because they were Christians (they didn't even "illegally gather"), christian minority keeps being physically attacked, in 2013, 100 Christians were abducted and abused.In the whole country, more than 6000 people are imprisoned without official reason, charge, or hopes for actual court proceedings, prisoners are being tortured, the organization "Doctors Without Borders" proved 115 prisoners to having been tortured, the ex-lybian ambassador in france was also tortured to death.

Offline hainkarga

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Re: Living in Libya better than the United States? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48210.msg1064162#msg1064162
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2013, 06:27:14 pm »
Wasn't one of the libyan leaders a prison broken mafia boss ? One of the first things those so called liberators did was hanging black people in the streets. All of the arabian spring revolutionists are extreme muslims / racists under the control of george soros organizations (check the shared flags they weave) I live in an islamic country and i know what sort of traitors, public enemies, mafia, radical islam terrorists are being used in  these so called revolutions. You know the first thing they did in egypt ? they made virginity test on their own revolution comrades.

I have no idea the reasoning of your major BS post. Arab spring revolutions(?) are all medival in nature and are under the influence of corporates who encourage radical islam and want little to no resistance left in the middle east (much like how it is in UAE).
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