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Offline antiaverage

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Re: What's up with vegans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64285.msg1260700#msg1260700
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2017, 11:30:41 pm »
In a hypothetical world where you can survive completely without animals and animal derived products:

We live in that world right now.
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Offline CactusKing

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Re: What's up with vegans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64285.msg1260701#msg1260701
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2017, 11:39:04 pm »
In a hypothetical world where you can survive completely without animals and animal derived products:

We live in that world right now.

"Animal products" includes many more things than you might think.
Many medicines have components derived from animal products. Also clothes and furniture.
I understand how some people might see killing animals to eat them as wrong, but I don't understand the vegan concept that consuming animal products is bad. How is it that eating a chicken's egg or wearing sheep's wool can be immoral? And if medicine made from snake poison or something can save your life, will a true vegan decline to use it because it contains "animal products"?
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Offline antiaverage

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Re: What's up with vegans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64285.msg1260702#msg1260702
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2017, 11:40:56 pm »
"Animal products" includes many more things than you might think.

No, I'm more than aware. But the statement was about survival, and we very much can survive without animal products.
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Offline laarry

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Re: What's up with vegans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64285.msg1260703#msg1260703
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2017, 11:43:07 pm »
In a hypothetical world where you can survive completely without animals and animal derived products:

We live in that world right now.

"Animal products" includes many more things than you might think.
Many medicines have components derived from animal products. Also clothes and furniture.
I understand how some people might see killing animals to eat them as wrong, but I don't understand the vegan concept that consuming animal products is bad. How is it that eating a chicken's egg or wearing sheep's wool can be immoral? And if medicine made from snake poison or something can save your life, will a true vegan decline to use it because it contains "animal products"?
Long story short:
Chicken have crappy lives in henhouses
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Offline Aves

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Re: What's up with vegans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64285.msg1260704#msg1260704
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2017, 11:43:18 pm »
A purist/extremist would, sure. The reasoning is pretty simple, something along the lines of 'animal derived materials are finite and unsustainable.' If we consume too much of them, then our resources will be depleted, etc. Not too dissimilar from being anti-fossil fuels.

Edit:Ignoring ethical qualms about the lives of the animals themselves, of which there will be other arguments for/against.
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Offline CactusKing

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Re: What's up with vegans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64285.msg1260705#msg1260705
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2017, 11:46:05 pm »
In a hypothetical world where you can survive completely without animals and animal derived products:

We live in that world right now.

"Animal products" includes many more things than you might think.
Many medicines have components derived from animal products. Also clothes and furniture.
I understand how some people might see killing animals to eat them as wrong, but I don't understand the vegan concept that consuming animal products is bad. How is it that eating a chicken's egg or wearing sheep's wool can be immoral? And if medicine made from snake poison or something can save your life, will a true vegan decline to use it because it contains "animal products"?
Long story short:
Chicken have crappy lives in henhouses
If that's the problem then a better move would be not to vegan, but to purchase you eggs from a free range farm, or just get pet chickens like I do so you know they have decent lives
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Offline antiaverage

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Re: What's up with vegans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64285.msg1260706#msg1260706
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2017, 11:48:09 pm »
If that's the problem then a better move would be not to vegan, but to purchase you eggs from a free range farm, or just get pet chickens like I do so you know they have decent lives

No, their morals on that specific point are different from yours. They choose to use zero animal products.
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Offline CactusKing

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Re: What's up with vegans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64285.msg1260707#msg1260707
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2017, 11:56:05 pm »
If that's the problem then a better move would be not to vegan, but to purchase you eggs from a free range farm, or just get pet chickens like I do so you know they have decent lives

No, their morals on that specific point are different from yours. They choose to use zero animal products.

But to what end? If you take care of your chickens, and they lay eggs and then leave them, how is it immoral to eat the eggs?
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Offline Espithel

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Re: What's up with vegans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64285.msg1260708#msg1260708
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2017, 12:03:48 am »
Are vegans opposed to anti-bacterial handwash because it kills off tons of living microorganisms?

(This is a serious question.)

Offline Ekki

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Re: What's up with vegans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64285.msg1260709#msg1260709
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2017, 12:07:00 am »
It's not just animal products. They're against the use of animals "against their will". Since most animals don't have a will vegans just assume they don't want to do stuff for humans and so are against consumption of anything that uses ("abuses") animals in their production. So no milk because it abuses cows, no medicine that was tested on rats, no horseback riding (I guess?), etc.

They are doing a "favour" to the animals they indirectly save by reducing consumption. Plus they're idealists, hoping that the entire human world will eventually stop using animals. Most of them probably know the impact they make isn't too big worldwide.

So, back on the questions
- "Not wanting to" do something is only applicable to complex enough animals. If it's moral to kill to eat depends on how much "suffering" is the animal capable of feeling (and how much it suffers while being killed), and maybe how much food do you get per kill. Any rule you choose will in the end be arbitrary but it's good to at least be consistent with it.
- Honor is useless to your dead ancestors so... Some people may actually think something similar to this, but it's quite a stupid argument to make IMO.
- Don't care much. If you see everyone as a resource and treat them well anyways you'd be a better person than someone treating everyone like crap.

Offline antiaverage

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Re: What's up with vegans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64285.msg1260710#msg1260710
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2017, 12:09:36 am »
But to what end? If you take care of your chickens, and they lay eggs and then leave them, how is it immoral to eat the eggs?

You don't see it as immoral, they do. Here is a vegan explaining their viewpoint: http://www.theveganwoman.com/is-it-ethical-to-eat-eggs-from-home-grown-chickens/
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Offline antiaverage

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Re: What's up with vegans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64285.msg1260711#msg1260711
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2017, 12:10:26 am »
Are vegans opposed to anti-bacterial handwash because it kills off tons of living microorganisms?

(This is a serious question.)

Doctors are against anti-bacterial handwash. The FDA banned it.
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