Elements 1.17

[Essence]

That should obviously be moved to the other thread.

As to the 1.17 changes, I have to say "Drat!  I was just testing a Spark/Momentum/Adrenaline deck that's totally shafted now that a Momentumed Spark is 4/1 instead of 3/1". 

j/k

lol

[Essence]

Mind the double post; it's been a few hours and the topic is completely different.

I have to say, I doubted the new Heal spell.  I've tested it.  I don't doubt it anymore. 

Life is starting to live up to it's potential.

[CB!]

The AI didn't learn using all potions yet. Dropping antimatter on 0/5 Oty is not too effective.

Yeah, AI5 dropped 2 antimatters on my lava golem.  Essentially just purging his hand of 2 cards.... and using a ton of entropy quanta....

[cyberrico]

Again, I understand that patch notes don't always list all changes for several reasons.  I just wanted to start this thread so that we can hash it all out.

Here are the actual notes for 1.17:

Bugs fixed:
- New Gravity pull code (should take care of most gravity pull bugs)
- Immortal icon does not persist anymore if the permanent is removed from the game
- The slot machine have a new icon for upgraded cards
- Upgraded alchemy cards pay the correct amount of money if sold
- Several AI improvements (AI learned how to use the new alchemy cards... hopefully)
- Fast clicking on a target should not multiply the effect of a card anymore (not tested yet)

New cards:
Aflatoxin, antimatter, luciferin and liquid shadow will be available soon.

Balance:
- Stone skin cost reduced
- Heal heals for 20 hp, card cost increased
- Spark is now a 3/0 creature ( 5/0 upgraded)

There were a lot more changes to the AI.  A lot of it seems to be targeting, which is good.  In the past, the AI seemed to "forget" to use abilities that they can play such as devour, firefly, paradox, infection, poison even though they have the quanta.  That is no longer happening as far as I can tell except I noticed a failure to cast fireflies a couple of times.  How the AI plays their cards is different too.  They don't hold onto cards as long as they used to.  For example, Seism is rewinding my creatures in the first few turns.  I don't recall in hundreds of matches against him ever using it so early.  Rainbow's timing is different as well.  No more of that last minute steal fest.  Not as late anyway.  The FG's are also using protect artifact more often instead of holding onto it for several turns.  Explosion got some major changes to how the AI plays it.  It still can be wasted on bonewall but it will more often go after more important stuff like graveyard and feral bond.

Stuff I'm not sure about:

I can't seem to put my finger on it.  Maybe I just went on a bad run but the AI seems to be so much faster in every way.  It's like it they have cards up their sleeves.  3-4 turns and it has 6-8 creatures out.  And no I'm not talking about Ferox.  This could be because they are no longer holding onto cards as long as they were (assuming that I am correct about that).

Balance issues:

These seemingly minor changes to the AI is having a tremendous impact on game balance.  Drawing 2 cards, being able to have huge decks, more than 6 of each card and 3 quanta instead of 1 is now probably too much of an advantage for the AI who we often beat simply because it made too many fatal errors in its decisions.  Now that it is making better decisions the game has even more so become about luck of the draw instead of skill and the amount of luck required to win is now off the charts.

Reducing the Luck Factor:

These ideas are intended to be solutions that can be implemented with simple changes to the code and not a big rewrite.  Let's face it.  The ideas in the M:TG thread would require a total rewrite.

There should be a check in the beginning of each match that checks to see if each player has at least one tower/pillar in their initial draw.  This is pretty standard in card battle games.

Increase the cost of explosion/rewind.  The new AI is shutting us down a lot faster now.

Limit the number of each card the False Gods can have in their deck.  Instead of giving Seism 12 Quicksands, maybe give him 8.  Maybe 6 rewinds instead of 8.  These sorts of cards should slow us down and force us to be more efficient instead of having the potential to shut us down completely which is much more often the case now.  Whatever makes sense for balance in the overall changes to their decks


I'll add more tomorrow when I play another session.

[Demagog]

I think the main thing to realize is that there shouldn't be any deck (or type of deck) that is able to handle all of the FG's without too much difficulty. I don't know how many FG's there are, but there are quite a few, and to think that a certain deck should win 80% of the time (like they used to) just screams imbalance. Yes, with the new changes the FG's now have a huge advantage, but people are still getting win rates above 50%, which is more than enough.

So I don't think anything needs to be changed.

[cyberrico]

I think the main thing to realize is that there shouldn't be any deck (or type of deck) that is able to handle all of the FG's without too much difficulty. I don't know how many FG's there are, but there are quite a few, and to think that a certain deck should win 80% of the time (like they used to) just screams imbalance. Yes, with the new changes the FG's now have a huge advantage, but people are still getting win rates above 50%, which is more than enough.

So I don't think anything needs to be changed.

I'm not talking about an 80% win rate.  I'm talking about luck.  I personally just want to see the game be more about skill and less about luck.  I want it to be harder than it is now but I don't want it to be a hundred spins of the roulette wheel before I even get the chance to outsmart my opponent.

Elements is becoming more like Yahtzee and less like chess with every patch.

[Kamietsu]

I think the main thing to realize is that there shouldn't be any deck (or type of deck) that is able to handle all of the FG's without too much difficulty. I don't know how many FG's there are, but there are quite a few, and to think that a certain deck should win 80% of the time (like they used to) just screams imbalance. Yes, with the new changes the FG's now have a huge advantage, but people are still getting win rates above 50%, which is more than enough.

So I don't think anything needs to be changed.

I'm not talking about an 80% win rate.  I'm talking about luck.  I personally just want to see the game be more about skill and less about luck.  I want it to be harder than it is now but I don't want it to be a hundred spins of the roulette wheel before I even get the chance to outsmart my opponent.

Elements is becoming more like Yahtzee and less like chess with every patch.

It's a card game. Meaning all the skill is already there in the strategy of the cards you picked for your deck. Luck plays a huge part that you just simply can't convert to skill. The luck of the draw can't be changed to the skill of the draw. There is very little luck in chess at all because you have everything laid out in front of you, all possible moves and pieces right there. Card games can't and will never be like that. Part of the fun is the luck of the draw, hoping to draw that right card at the right time. Sometimes you will never be able to beat your opponent because you just got stuck with a really bad draw and they got a really good one. It's like this with every single card game, at least every single card game I know of.

How could you even make it more based on skill anyway? That's a genuine question, i actually want to know how. Maybe you have some good ideas to offer this game.

[sethumme]

I may not have a large Light deck or all the upgraded cards, but I fail to see the use for the Luciferin potion.  Light already seems fairly easy to accumulate, and most Light cards don't have a high cost, except for the dragons and Miracle.  I can understand wanting to build up a large bank of fire, earth, or darkness quanta because there are spells that are amplified based on quanta.  Since you wouldn't play Luciferin until you had a decent number of creatures already in play, what's the need to amplify your Light quanta / turn at that point?  Sorry if I'm missing something obvious.

[CB!]

I may not have a large Light deck or all the upgraded cards, but I fail to see the use for the Luciferin potion.  Light already seems fairly easy to accumulate, and most Light cards don't have a high cost, except for the dragons and Miracle.  I can understand wanting to build up a large bank of fire, earth, or darkness quanta because there are spells that are amplified based on quanta.  Since you wouldn't play Luciferin until you had a decent number of creatures already in play, what's the need to amplify your Light quanta / turn at that point?  Sorry if I'm missing something obvious.

I think when you play Luciferin, it should make all your creatures generate whatever your mark is.... just my opinion, though....

[cyberrico]

Some of my original post makes suggestions towards this.

First off, there is no luck in chess.  You could be rated 1900 and I could be rated 1700 and I'd have a chance at beating you but only if I'm particularly sharp that day and you are not.  But a 1900 will beat a 1700 almost all of the time.  He simply thinks deeper than the 1700 does.  Maybe I could move my bishop to a spot that is a great move but the reason I did it was idiotic and not realize how lucky I was to make such a "bad" move but there really is no luck.

I hate to keep going back to MTG but there is much more skill involved in that game.  There are major game mechanics that require players to be a lot more strategic in how they play their cards.  The cards themselves can make much bigger changes to the game like killing all creatures on the board (including yours), free turns, etc etc.  Counterspells are a big deal but that can't really be added to Elements without major changes.  Not necessary IMO.

If the AI were smart enough to always make the smartest moves at the right times, there would be no need for them to have twice the HP, two cards per turn, etc etc.  Luck would still be a factor but it would stil be a challenge to beat the FGs.  They would just need a couple of advantages over us to really bring a challenge to the table rather than it being a spin of the wheel as it is right now.

So I propose that the FGs be slightly nerfed but get a ton of improvements to their AI.  There is a LOT more that can be done with the change of a few simple variables.  Targetting still needs work, timing is much better but still needs work, etc.  Not that I am a developer but if I could make whatever changes I wanted to nothing but the AI, I could make the FG's almost completely unbeatable with the advantages that they have now.

[zac80]

I may not have a large Light deck or all the upgraded cards, but I fail to see the use for the Luciferin potion. [...]

I guess you can utilize the effect of Luciferin, even if your deck is not Light-based.

I think when you play Luciferin, it should make all your creatures generate whatever your mark is.... just my opinion, though....

Since Lucifer means 'the bringer of light', it would be quite confusing... : )

[Kamietsu]

You do realize that all the AI is governed by the same programming, right? There is no seperate AI for the FGs, an AI for the Halfbloods, etc. But even still, The computer could get nothing but costing cards in their first hand, then there is no real smart move that can be made.

But when you compare this game to MTG, of course there is more skill involved in that game. There are plenty more cards than there are here, this game did just get started not that long ago.  So there may be more cards and game mechanics there, but you still need plenty of skill to be able to play this game right. Not anyone can just come in and play any card, any time, and still win. There is a lot of strategy here, when to play the right cards, whether to save up quanta to play a better card next turn or play a less powerful card this turn, etc. But also, such large games like MTG can take a while to finish one duel. Plenty of duels here only take a few minutes max.