Elements the Game Forum - Free Online Fantasy Card Game
News and Announcements => Patch Notes and Development News => Topic started by: zanzarino on June 12, 2011, 10:03:22 pm
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I am slowly working on the T500 project and I decided to publish a few details so that I can start having some feedback.
The oracle will pick a card for you; your T500 deck is going to have 5 copies of the Oracle's card. more details here:
http://www.elementsthegame.com/development.html
Edit: T500 has been renamed "The Arena" and it is now live.
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rawr
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Looks awesome and Zanz is a ninja, 5 mins after the bug discover, it was gone :D
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Slowly working on it means it will be finished around when? Sorry, not to push you or anything, I'm just kinda eager about it.
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Ninja'd by teammate dots x)
We'll be sure to keep bug reports coming. We miss you in chat though!
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Looks amazing as always. Really waiting to see what this turns into :)
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Way cool! Always nice to see updates! Lol, a new thing to do besides the real game for a bit, keeping up with the development.
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Epic 200th post for Zanz.
I am looking forward to this. Looks like it will take a lot of effort (or deckbuilding skills) to become a FG yourself.
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I can't wait to see what 10 men puts up for us when this is finished! Way to go, Zanz!
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This looks amazing, Zanz.
One nitpick: It says 'increses' instead of 'increases' in the attribute descriptions.
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This is looking awesome :)
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Can't wait!
Lvl 72 here I come! ;)
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I'd rather it didn't have the dexterity option. I don't think I'd play it if it did unless the reward was better than fg's.
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Lol, we just talked about t500 today on chat.
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I'd rather it didn't have the dexterity option. I don't think I'd play it if it did unless the reward was better than fg's.
Unless the player is level 80, FGs are mechanically tougher than T500 decks. I think he said that a certain number of consecutive wins would allow for spins with only rare cards on them, as far as rewards go.
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wow, im surprised i would be classified as gold, barely limit though
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wow, im surprised i would be classified as gold, barely limit though
Seconded. But I'm sure there's reason behind the fairly easy score limits. Never considered that I was 5K away from being a platinum player....
This is a nice hype for the summer, for this I'm thankful Zanz :)
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I love how this is turning out. It looks like it will add another whole dimension to the game, making the experience twice as addictive as before.
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I'd rather it didn't have the dexterity option. I don't think I'd play it if it did unless the reward was better than fg's.
Unless the player is level 80, FGs are mechanically tougher than T500 decks. I think he said that a certain number of consecutive wins would allow for spins with only rare cards on them, as far as rewards go.
Even with level 72 can you build full fledged fg decks as long as it doesn't have more than 36 cards. (75 here, so that makes me smile)
I would indeed hope the rewards to be better than fgs, since players can think up nastier decks than the fgs are. Though on the other hand, crappy decks posted on t500 shouldn't result in free upgrades...
I think it's a bit hard to balance, since there are both players that think up decks that exceed the power of fgs with them and those whose decks are worse.
Then again, a chance for rares might actually be worth it if the rares truly are rare.
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Not all five copies of the Oracle card would be upgraded without maxing out Wisdom, I think; only one copy gets upgraded per Wisdom interval. A small difference, but still weaker.
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wow, im surprised i would be classified as gold, barely limit though
Seconded. But I'm sure there's reason behind the fairly easy score limits. Never considered that I was 5K away from being a platinum player....
This is a nice hype for the summer, for this I'm thankful Zanz :)
what are you implying?
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Not all five copies of the Oracle card would be upgraded without maxing out Wisdom, I think; only one copy gets upgraded per Wisdom interval. A small difference, but still weaker.
Hmm, must've missed that part, time to get more score, then! :D
And before I forget, t500 looks awesome :)
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wow, im surprised i would be classified as gold, barely limit though
Seconded. But I'm sure there's reason behind the fairly easy low score limits. Never considered that I was 5K away from being a platinum player....
This is a nice hype for the summer, for this I'm thankful Zanz :)
what are you implying?
Maybe just my surprise, but 89K score for platinum and 19K for gold seems to be low for me. Most likely I have no idea about the average score of players and I'm thinking in terms of T50, where it's hard to stay steadily under ~150-200K score.
Though this gives chance for more players to participate in T500, which is the goal of it.
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Yay! zanzarino you're the best for making us higher scoring players look for something to look foward to. I am glad for Top500 and let's see what else zanzarino has in store for us. Lvl 77 here :P
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THIS IS GOING TO BE AWESOME!!!!!
Btw, if this is the right place for feedback, I'd like to see 2xMark and 2xDeck as separate options, to potentially increase the challenge. It's a pity that with score having a real meaning we'll probably see a rise in the amount of hackers, but oh well.
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Unless the player is level 80, FGs are mechanically tougher than T500 decks. I think he said that a certain number of consecutive wins would allow for spins with only rare cards on them, as far as rewards go.
Well, the top50 are well within the score range (myself included) that would have mid-60s for points (at 230k I'd be at 68 on that chart, and I am not in the end of week t50). So probably 15-20% are going to be 60+ points.
In my case, 68 cards buys me: 2xdraw, 3x mark, and 36 upgrades + 2 oracle upgrades and 180hp. That's about and 20hp short of an fg, and if that wasn't limited to 2x I have enough points to go beyond that also with minor adjustments. So yeah, maybe not as tough as fg's mechanically on average, but fairly close. Toss in a couple hourglasses and they might give rainbow a run for the money though. Also, it's not like fg's use sog's, but you can bet 7/10 t500 will be and the ones that don't will be more lethal without em.
I'm picturing this like being a list of the fg's, without the fun ones. I don't think anyone is going to make a the sort of decks like Neptune that are both easy and spin enough rewards to make fg's worthwhile.
I didn't know what the reward was, so if it ends up being for upgraded cards or something like you say, it might end up being worth it. But the unupped cards will have to be converted to upped during spins, or you'll end up with the same spin problems that half-bloods have. Even then, I'm not sure rare spins every time would be worth anything if people use decks without 6 copies of cards. A 60 card deck with 15 different cards in it isn't going to spin anything, rare or not. We know from existing t50 that if you want people to actually spin things on a regular basis, you want to have 4 card types or less in a deck. We see that with the fg's as well. The good fg's spin wise don't have many types of cards at all. I'm thinking most of these t500 won't be structured in a way that actually gives good spins. That might not end up being the reward it was intended to be.
Now, it might be different for new players who don't have a full set of shards/rares and have nowhere else to get them. To me, fg's/t50/t500 is just electrum, so maybe that taints my view. I'm also assuming here that the t500 will be motivated/required to make decks designed to kill. I take it all back if they end up putting the same sort of farms up.
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I'm looking forward to this like you can't believe. I've been practicing my ultimate evil FG-deck building, and at Level 78, I can totally build 48-card FG decks. It's the 'make money while you sleep' part that I'm looking forward to. :)
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I assume that we need the actual cards for the decks?
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I assume that we need the actual cards for the decks?
Aside from the five cards provided by the Oracle, yes, you need the actual cards in your collection.
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What are the four different leagues for? Say my score puts me in Silver League. When I play against T500, do I only fight against decks from other Silver League players, or what?
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Your deck, to stay in t500, needs to be one of the top 500 decks in the silver league.
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I'm pretty certain that you choose one of the four different leagues after selecting the T500 and then are matched up against a deck from that league. Decks are in different leagues depending on their level.
Edit: Found the thread (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17265.0.html) with all the T500 information.
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This looks super badass and I'm stoked for it.
Wonder how much of a factor AI quality will be.
As in, decks that are built such that the AI knows how to play them well will do better, right?
Also, if you spin the oracle again do you have to build a new deck?
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T500 looks amazing!
Thanks for the feedback and all your hard work.
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Awesome!
Looking forward to it ^^.
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when can we play on the t500 ;D :life :life :life because it looks very good but i am a real gamer ,so i cannot wait
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This seems...interesting. But what of those with negative score? :P
(Note: I don't have negative score myself, sitting somewhere around 1600 at this moment. But I might start grinding AI5/FG's sooner or later, and my score will plummet when that happens, I guarantee it.)
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Interesting how we were just talking about no new updates, pretty much perfect timing to build hype and such.
The level boundaries seem a little low, but obviously, us being forumers and the "elite", we probably have a different view to the casual players of the game.
I'm a level 51-3 ish, and I have been playing since the game came out on Kong, I have never really put in any grinding sessions, used good decks, or anything putting me into the Gold Category, but I'll accept, and like to think that I deserve it.
Like always, it looks awesome. I think its a great step for PvE, essentially constantly refreshing new competitive and varied decks, and probably won't need to be updated as much as FGs/AI3s ect would, and will add something else to that daily oracle spin which I love so much.
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One idea that could help balance the rewards for T500 would be to have the reward increase based not only on a deck's league, but also on the deck's current place within the 500 steps of that league. Since decks start in the middle of the ladder, decks in that area would give moderate rewards (similar to what the current t50 gives), while a deck that had made it to the top 100 or so would give significant rewards, to balance out the fact that it is most likely a very difficult deck to beat.
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As in, decks that are built such that the AI knows how to play them well will do better, right?
Yes. In fact, it will be the biggest factor of all. Building decks for the AI will become a new art form. Adapting to its limits and when it gets updated will be fun, especially for those who have more technical knowledge of how it works.
Also, if you spin the oracle again do you have to build a new deck?
Yes.
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As in, decks that are built such that the AI knows how to play them well will do better, right?
Yes. In fact, it will be the biggest factor of all. Building decks for the AI will become a new art form. Adapting to its limits and when it gets updated will be fun, especially for those who have more technical knowledge of how it works.
Also, if you spin the oracle again do you have to build a new deck?
Yes.
wait, what? i don't get it? so after spinning the slots, we got to make a new deck all over again?
is that what i understand?
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The deck you submit to T500 will have to contain copies of the card that the Oracle picked for the day. 5 copies, to be precise.
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Dang you zanz, another pill for my addiction...
(I'm incredibly looking forward to this :) )
I'm currently a the top of the Gold League, 1500 points away from the Platinum.
Now, if I get that 1500 socore, do I risk that I may end up left out from the whole show, cause my score is not enough for the 500th place in Platinum, but it is too much for Gold?
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Dang you zanz, another pill for my addiction...
(I'm incredibly looking forward to this :) )
I'm currently a the top of the Gold League, 1500 points away from the Platinum.
Now, if I get that 1500 socore, do I risk that I may end up left out from the whole show, cause my score is not enough for the 500th place in Platinum, but it is too much for Gold?
No idea to be honest Acsabi. ^^; I'm sure you'll be put in the ranking somewhere in Platinum, as there aren't that many people that are level 60 and above...
That said, the development of this is truly enticing. :) Thanks again Zanz for the small update; I wonder who can make the level 80 beat-you-on-the-first-turn deck first? XD
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Dang you zanz, another pill for my addiction...
(I'm incredibly looking forward to this :) )
I'm currently a the top of the Gold League, 1500 points away from the Platinum.
Now, if I get that 1500 socore, do I risk that I may end up left out from the whole show, cause my score is not enough for the 500th place in Platinum, but it is too much for Gold?
As far as I know, there aren't 500+ people with a score like that.
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Dang you zanz, another pill for my addiction...
(I'm incredibly looking forward to this :) )
I'm currently a the top of the Gold League, 1500 points away from the Platinum.
Now, if I get that 1500 socore, do I risk that I may end up left out from the whole show, cause my score is not enough for the 500th place in Platinum, but it is too much for Gold?
No idea to be honest Acsabi. ^^; I'm sure you'll be put in the ranking somewhere in Platinum, as there aren't that many people that are level 60 and above...
That said, the development of this is truly enticing. :) Thanks again Zanz for the small update; I wonder who can make the level 80 beat-you-on-the-first-turn deck first? XD
well based on the fact that t50 starts somewhere at 250k, I bet that there are atleast 500 players with 90-100k+ score.... that would mean there's a gap between 89500 and ~100k, and the players there are left out... same for the other leagues too.
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Can a player with a high score (e.g. lvl 40) generate decks for lower leagues (e.g. Bronze)?
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Dang you zanz, another pill for my addiction...
(I'm incredibly looking forward to this :) )
I'm currently a the top of the Gold League, 1500 points away from the Platinum.
Now, if I get that 1500 socore, do I risk that I may end up left out from the whole show, cause my score is not enough for the 500th place in Platinum, but it is too much for Gold?
All submitted decks will start out in the middle of their league. (I'm not certain whether there are 500 or 500/4=125 players in each league, I guess the latter) So when you submit your deck it will be ranked in the middle (250 or 63) and it will be moved based on how well it performs against players and not based on your score. So with just barely making it to the platinum level you can (theoretically) get to the top stop of the T500. However score is important for improving your deck, how many extras (higher HP, extra draws, number of upgrades, etc) will depend on your level and on your score. So being on the bottom of your league will have some disadvantage, since others can pack more upgrades and better decks, but you will not be out because of the score.
After thinking:
-It'll be interesting how trainer will be adjusted, since you have no score there.
-I really hope there won't be a couple killer decks in Platinum league. FGs are nerfed, but now players have no intention of doing it, so really really strong decks can be created. What I hope is that not all players will copy the same handful of decks, which are the most successful.....
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-I really hope there won't be a couple killer decks in Platinum league. FGs are nerfed, but now players have no intention of doing it, so really really strong decks can be created. What I hope is that not all players will copy the same handful of decks, which are the most successful.....
That's what the oracles cards are for: diversity in deck building!
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Plus if a powerful deck or couple decks get extremely popular, we can always just bring direct counters.
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Based on my understanding, the deck you submit must use your own cards (that includes possessing the upgraded cards) right? If not, I think we should be given a "vault" of all the cards, upgraded and non upgraded, because some players may be restricted on what decks they can make with the oracle card because of the cards they may or may not have.
Thank you Zanz for yet another great update! My slowly fading craze for Elements has been renewed!
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I love the skill point system. Multiple people can submit identical decks which perform very differently based on which attributes they choose. Adds more variety and strategy. Can't wait!
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Dang you zanz, another pill for my addiction...
(I'm incredibly looking forward to this :) )
I'm currently a the top of the Gold League, 1500 points away from the Platinum.
Now, if I get that 1500 socore, do I risk that I may end up left out from the whole show, cause my score is not enough for the 500th place in Platinum, but it is too much for Gold?
All submitted decks will start out in the middle of their league. (I'm not certain whether there are 500 or 500/4=125 players in each league, I guess the latter) So when you submit your deck it will be ranked in the middle (250 or 63) and it will be moved based on how well it performs against players and not based on your score. So with just barely making it to the platinum level you can (theoretically) get to the top stop of the T500. However score is important for improving your deck, how many extras (higher HP, extra draws, number of upgrades, etc) will depend on your level and on your score. So being on the bottom of your league will have some disadvantage, since others can pack more upgrades and better decks, but you will not be out because of the score.
After thinking:
-It'll be interesting how trainer will be adjusted, since you have no score there.
-I really hope there won't be a couple killer decks in Platinum league. FGs are nerfed, but now players have no intention of doing it, so really really strong decks can be created. What I hope is that not all players will copy the same handful of decks, which are the most successful.....
-There's 500 players for each league
- Yes every deck starts out in the middle, but still, the 500 players who get to submit a deck is the 500 players with most score for every league. That makes a huge gap between levels in every league. Consider, for example, Silver league, where the score range is 4160(LVL 20)-17850(LVL 39). Now, I think that we will see only LVL 38 and 39 decks in that league, as there are way more than 500 players with scores around 17k. I think the same is true for every league.
I have a score that is enough for the last level of the Gold League(LVL 59), and with the current system, I have no intention of gaining score to reach LVL 60, cause I think that the Platinum League will be filled with decks ~LVL64-10men. The same is true for the top players of every league. Consider Bronze League... 0-3750... I guarantee that with the current system, we will see nothing but LVL19 decks there.
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Can a player with a high score (e.g. lvl 40) generate decks for lower leagues (e.g. Bronze)?
This is something I am actually thinking about:
Letting high level player submit decks in low level leagues might cause a flattening in variety (bronze league have mostly lvl19, silver lvl39, etc.).
However, higher level leagues will yield more coins per win, giving players a reason to move to a higher league.
Not letting high level players in low level leagues might cause certain leagues to overcrowd over time. Right now the score limits are set to divide the entire game population in 4 fractions that are about 25% each; my guess is that the gold league will overcrowd over time.
The discussion about this particular issue is open.
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Can a player with a high score (e.g. lvl 40) generate decks for lower leagues (e.g. Bronze)?
This is something I am actually thinking about:
Letting high level player submit decks in low level leagues might cause a flattening in variety (bronze league have mostly lvl19, silver lvl39, etc.).
However, higher level leagues will yield more coins per win, giving players a reason to move to a higher league.
Not letting high level players in low level leagues might cause certain leagues to overcrowd over time. Right now the score limits are set to divide the entire game population in 4 fractions that are about 25% each; my guess is that the gold league will overcrowd over time.
The discussion about this particular issue is open.
Even if higher level leagues yield more coins per win people might still consider going into a lower league if it's played more, thus getting more wins and netting more coins. Personally I'm in favor of allowing people to get any level below their actual level, since players are otherwise somewhat punished for having a high score and would have to deliberately lose matches to get into the league they want.
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I'm pretty certain that you choose one of the four different leagues after selecting the T500 and then are matched up against a deck from that league. Decks are in different leagues depending on their level.
Edit: Found the thread (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17265.0.html) with all the T500 information.
Ahhh thanks Wizardcat! All is explained.
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Updated wisdom scale to reflect the fact that having 30 upgraded cards or 60 upgraded cards does not make a big difference.
New scale: 0,5,10,20,30,60
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How much electrum will the different leagues be worth?
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I'm still wondering about the amount of score needed for each level.
Someone, for instance, my brother (not Jaymanfu) who doesn't play very much is almost in the Platinum level. That doesn't seem to give him much to work for when he almost at the highest level.
I'm guessing you have the data for average scores and all that stuff, but most people can get to the 50k level pretty quickly. Then they can everything maxed out except the HP increases.
There's probably still more tweaking to be done, but maybe shift the scores a little so levels don't come so incredibly fast at the beginning and then almost non-existently at the end?
(That being said, I'm looking forward to T500 :) )
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Dang you zanz, another pill for my addiction...
(I'm incredibly looking forward to this :) )
I'm currently a the top of the Gold League, 1500 points away from the Platinum.
Now, if I get that 1500 socore, do I risk that I may end up left out from the whole show, cause my score is not enough for the 500th place in Platinum, but it is too much for Gold?
All submitted decks will start out in the middle of their league. (I'm not certain whether there are 500 or 500/4=125 players in each league, I guess the latter) So when you submit your deck it will be ranked in the middle (250 or 63) and it will be moved based on how well it performs against players and not based on your score. So with just barely making it to the platinum level you can (theoretically) get to the top stop of the T500. However score is important for improving your deck, how many extras (higher HP, extra draws, number of upgrades, etc) will depend on your level and on your score. So being on the bottom of your league will have some disadvantage, since others can pack more upgrades and better decks, but you will not be out because of the score.
After thinking:
-It'll be interesting how trainer will be adjusted, since you have no score there.
-I really hope there won't be a couple killer decks in Platinum league. FGs are nerfed, but now players have no intention of doing it, so really really strong decks can be created. What I hope is that not all players will copy the same handful of decks, which are the most successful.....
-There's 500 players for each league
- Yes every deck starts out in the middle, but still, the 500 players who get to submit a deck is the 500 players with most score for every league. That makes a huge gap between levels in every league. Consider, for example, Silver league, where the score range is 4160(LVL 20)-17850(LVL 39). Now, I think that we will see only LVL 38 and 39 decks in that league, as there are way more than 500 players with scores around 17k. I think the same is true for every league.
I have a score that is enough for the last level of the Gold League(LVL 59), and with the current system, I have no intention of gaining score to reach LVL 60, cause I think that the Platinum League will be filled with decks ~LVL64-10men. The same is true for the top players of every league. Consider Bronze League... 0-3750... I guarantee that with the current system, we will see nothing but LVL19 decks there.
Actually you can have maximum upgrades by level 64 as it currently shows (I guess it will be changed).
4*1+5*4+2*10+1*20=4+20+20+20=64
So anything above level 64 won't get additional bonus.
If you make platinum league with level 60, you can make a FG powered 30 card deck. (After level 64 (135800 score) no backdraws at all)
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And if you divide the player population in 4 equal pieces, you're not taking into consideration how active players are.
I can imagine people with less then 50k score are much less active or maybe don't even log on anymore. This would mean the gold and platinum levels get crowded even more.
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That's what I was thinking... maybe put the cutoff for Platinum at 200k or 300k, then you have to work for it.
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Rank 41, low in Gold League...
But anyway, this sounds interesting - I'm tuned in!
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Actually you can have maximum upgrades by level 64 as it currently shows (I guess it will be changed).
4*1+5*4+2*10+1*20=4+20+20+20=64
So anything above level 64 won't get additional bonus.
If you make platinum league with level 60, you can make a FG powered 30 card deck. (After level 64 (135800 score) no backdraws at all)
wrong:
You can increase HPs in 5 HP steps, so:
20*1+5*4+2*10+ 20 =80 points.
Small idea:
Add "draw 1.5 cards "(or so) , in the way the AI5 draws cards.
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And if you divide the player population in 4 equal pieces, you're not taking into consideration how active players are.
I can imagine people with less then 50k score are much less active or maybe don't even log on anymore. This would mean the gold and platinum levels get crowded even more.
uhm, no. I was actually considering that higher score players are more active.
I'll give you some numbers, these are the players that logged on in the last 48 hours, arranged by score.
Platinum (score >= 89500): 479 players
Gold (score<89500 and >= 19050): 2290 players
Silver (score<19050 and >= 4160): 3069 players
Bronze (score<4160): 7998 players
If I increase the platinum limit to 100k or more there would be no competition for the platinum top500, you just submit your deck once and you are good for weeks.
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Actually you can have maximum upgrades by level 64 as it currently shows (I guess it will be changed).
4*1+5*4+2*10+1*20=4+20+20+20=64
So anything above level 64 won't get additional bonus.
If you make platinum league with level 60, you can make a FG powered 30 card deck. (After level 64 (135800 score) no backdraws at all)
wrong:
You can increase HPs in 5 HP steps, so:
20*1+5*4+2*10+ 20 =80 points.
Small idea:
Add "draw 1.5 cards "(or so) , in the way the AI5 draws cards.
Oh I thought only the visible numbers were the different steps (just like for the other 3 options)
Idea: Double deck size, just like FGs? Double draw otherwise will only make sense for 40+ decksizes.... yeah makes sense :)
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Double draw automatically doubles the deck size.
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And if you divide the player population in 4 equal pieces, you're not taking into consideration how active players are.
I can imagine people with less then 50k score are much less active or maybe don't even log on anymore. This would mean the gold and platinum levels get crowded even more.
uhm, no. I was actually considering that higher score players are more active.
I'll give you some numbers, these are the players that logged on in the last 48 hours, arranged by score.
Platinum (score >= 89500): 479 players
Gold (score<89500 and >= 19050): 2290 players
Silver (score<19050 and >= 4160): 3069 players
Bronze (score<4160): 7998 players
If I increase the platinum limit to 100k or more there would be no competition for the platinum top500, you just submit your deck once and you are good for weeks.
Still there's the problem that if I have, lessay, 89600 score, then I am left out from Platunum due to competition, while at the same time I am overqualified for Gold.
Do you plan on doing something about this? the same can be said about all the other leagues too.
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Double draw automatically doubles the deck size.
Hmm.. related to that, let's say I have a 30 card deck. Then I increase my dexterity (double draw and deck size) and my wisdom to use 30 upgraded cards, what is the deck result? Will it be split 30 upgraded and 30 unupped or all 60 cards upgraded?
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I'm pretty sure that wisdom only increases the maximum amount of upped cards you can put into the deck when deckbuilding, and then dexterity doubles the deck you built.
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Small idea:
Add "draw 1.5 cards" (or so) , in the way the AI5 draws cards.
^^ That is a brilliant idea. IIRC, the AI5 draws an extra card if it has 3 or less cards in it's hand; this would make an excellent 'middle step' in Dexterity.
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I believe it's 2 or less.
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I believe it's 2 or less.
correct. I have just tested it.
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Admittedly, it's pretty weaksauce. Halfway to x2 draw would technically be at 4 or less, but I'd say 3 or less is enough x)
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Halfway to x2 draw would technically be at 4 or less
That's some questionable math. :P
Yes, 7/2 is 3,5 =~ 4, but decks will have a low number of cards in hand much more often, especially if you build your deck with that in mind (aka with a little more pillars).
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Your max hand size is 8, so.. not very questionable. As I already said though, 3 would be enough.
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I'm a little baffled that I'm all the way at Lvl. 64 and I've only been playing since end of March/early April. ???
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Does t500 ever reset? If a deck is extremely good will it stay there "forever"
Can you have multiple decks in t500? ex. a submission the next day
Also i like your tier system. I think it would work very well
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And if you divide the player population in 4 equal pieces, you're not taking into consideration how active players are.
I can imagine people with less then 50k score are much less active or maybe don't even log on anymore. This would mean the gold and platinum levels get crowded even more.
uhm, no. I was actually considering that higher score players are more active.
I'll give you some numbers, these are the players that logged on in the last 48 hours, arranged by score.
Platinum (score >= 89500): 479 players
Gold (score<89500 and >= 19050): 2290 players
Silver (score<19050 and >= 4160): 3069 players
Bronze (score<4160): 7998 players
If I increase the platinum limit to 100k or more there would be no competition for the platinum top500, you just submit your deck once and you are good for weeks.
Still there's the problem that if I have, lessay, 89600 score, then I am left out from Platunum due to competition, while at the same time I am overqualified for Gold.
Do you plan on doing something about this? the same can be said about all the other leagues too.
If I understand correctly, your score only determines what kind of deck you can build (i.e. if your score is 89600, you can't build a deck with 200HP, 3x mark, double draw, and all upped cards, since you won't have enough points). Once you submit a deck though, it no longer has anything to do with your score. The only way it will get pushed out of top500 is if it loses too much.
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There should be an expiration on decks that don't get pushed out - nothing drastic, but say a month or 1000 wins or something just to get them out eventually. Otherwise, after a while (particularly for the more heavily saturated leagues) we're going to run into situations where the t500 are people who spun a supernova or something else similarly extremely useful, and anyone who spins anything but a power card is going to get bumped out promptly.
Regarding the scoring on leagues, I actually think that bronze should start at 3k score or so and the levels should scale up from there. This will help the saturation somewhat, and tbh I don't really think the three digit score crowd is going to be able to field a particularly good deck at that point if they spin a base card that is anything other than whatever element they're playing at the moment. I could also see it encouraging new people to sell off their deck at a loss to build a deck for the league, which could pretty seriously damage their account if they do it a couple days in a row.
Also, really looking forward to it.
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Does t500 ever reset? If a deck is extremely good will it stay there "forever"
Can you have multiple decks in t500? ex. a submission the next day
Also i like your tier system. I think it would work very well
Your T500 deck will "age": after a few days it will start losing HP's.
The idea is to have a continuous stream of new decks entering T500 and old decks dropping out.
I am also thinking about making the reward system dynamic as well. If the bronze league is played much more than the silver league the coin reward for the bronze league will go down and the silver league reward will go up.
On the other side the chance to get a rare card will remain constant, after a few consecutive wins (6 for bronze, 5 for silver ... 3 for platinum) a special bonus spin is awarded with a high chance (maybe even 100%) to win a rare card.
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On the other side the chance to get a rare card will remain constant, after a few consecutive wins (6 for bronze, 5 for silver ... 3 for platinum) a special bonus spin is awarded with a high chance (maybe even 100%) to win a rare card.
Ooh, I like that a lot. :D
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I don't think it should start from 0 score, but from 500 score. You could also have a quest after the 500 score one that tells you to spin the oracle and submit the high-score. But then the oracle would have to be locked until you complete the last quest.
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Does t500 ever reset? If a deck is extremely good will it stay there "forever"
Can you have multiple decks in t500? ex. a submission the next day
Also i like your tier system. I think it would work very well
Your T500 deck will "age": after a few days it will start losing HP's.
The idea is to have a continuous stream of new decks entering T500 and old decks dropping out.
I am also thinking about making the reward system dynamic as well. If the bronze league is played much more than the silver league the coin reward for the bronze league will go down and the silver league reward will go up.
On the other side the chance to get a rare card will remain constant, after a few consecutive wins (6 for bronze, 5 for silver ... 3 for platinum) a special bonus spin is awarded with a high chance (maybe even 100%) to win a rare card.
I'm assuming that this means we will be more likely to get new cards now? Such as rare (not buyable) - yet not necessarily powerful cards?
Because I heard that rare cards were being delayed until T50 was fixed, yet you also specifically said you liked rares like nymphs (making people use their own decks).
Which I think would be awesome. Another fun way to distribute extra rares, which of course will become wildly popular in the first few weeks, and probably encourage some creativity if 6 or so of new rares are thrown in early.
And more unique decks in BL / CL !!!(You can tell that I'm a forumer when I don't say PvP1/PvP2)
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I'm loving this every day more.
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Does t500 ever reset? If a deck is extremely good will it stay there "forever"
Can you have multiple decks in t500? ex. a submission the next day
Also i like your tier system. I think it would work very well
Your T500 deck will "age": after a few days it will start losing HP's.
The idea is to have a continuous stream of new decks entering T500 and old decks dropping out.
I am also thinking about making the reward system dynamic as well. If the bronze league is played much more than the silver league the coin reward for the bronze league will go down and the silver league reward will go up.
On the other side the chance to get a rare card will remain constant, after a few consecutive wins (6 for bronze, 5 for silver ... 3 for platinum) a special bonus spin is awarded with a high chance (maybe even 100%) to win a rare card.
ok, that statement alone may just have me turn around my opinion about T500. Go Zanz, GO!!!
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Bronze League
Silver League
Gold League
Platinum Electrum League
;)
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Does t500 ever reset? If a deck is extremely good will it stay there "forever"
Can you have multiple decks in t500? ex. a submission the next day
Also i like your tier system. I think it would work very well
Your T500 deck will "age": after a few days it will start losing HP's.
The idea is to have a continuous stream of new decks entering T500 and old decks dropping out.
I am also thinking about making the reward system dynamic as well. If the bronze league is played much more than the silver league the coin reward for the bronze league will go down and the silver league reward will go up.
On the other side the chance to get a rare card will remain constant, after a few consecutive wins (6 for bronze, 5 for silver ... 3 for platinum) a special bonus spin is awarded with a high chance (maybe even 100%) to win a rare card.
Woot no more skipping through T50 blowing your score to look for farms! Sadly I already have 12 of each rare (excluding Nymphs and Marks); need more rares to motivate vets like us to grind T500! :P
I'm excited to submit some decks though, Platinum League.
@Zanzarino
Have you considered one of the rewards being UPGRADED cards in the top (let's say Gold and Platinum) leagues? This way we can face a diversity of decks in the T500 and yet still get rewarded greatly like grinding False Gods! Again, vets don't really benefit much in getting more rare cards..
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wowz im level 72 so platinum league here i go
i take that back just realised my score isnt any where on the list but my score is actually closer to level 40 then level 39 soo really, im in the Gold League...
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wowz im level 72 so platinum league here i go
the link for everyone is level 72. check the table below for the actual level. if you really are level 72. oops
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wowz im level 72 so platinum league here i go
the link for everyone is level 72. check the table below for the actual level. if you really are level 72. oops
even though the header says the example is LVL 40 :)
I have two remarks:
1, The more I consider it, the better it seems to me to remain in gold league (those who read this topic know that I'm on the border between gold and platinum). One skillpoint doesn't make difference in deck power (5HP) but staying in gold might actually yield more :electrum, since I think players who face platinum will have uber- decks and will beat me a lot, while players facing gold might not have superman-level decks.
this might be contraproductive, as it encourages the players (atleast in the border between two leagues) not to gain or actually lose score.
2, I don't really see huge difference between socres in the platinum league. 1000 score more and I'm LVL60, able to field a deck with 2xdraw, 3xmark, 30 upped cards and 120HP. If I had ten times this score(LVL79), I could add the final 30 upped cards (not that useful since I don't think I'll go over 35-40 card decks anyway, so only 5-10 cards count out of the final 30) and a whopping 45 HP.
I feel this is a bit small reward for ten times as much score, no?
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2, I don't really see huge difference between socres in the platinum league. 1000 score more and I'm LVL60, able to field a deck with 2xdraw, 3xmark, 30 upped cards and 120HP. If I had ten times this score(LVL79), I could add the final 30 upped cards (not that useful since I don't think I'll go over 35-40 card decks anyway, so only 5-10 cards count out of the final 30) and a whopping 45 HP.
I feel this is a bit small reward for ten times as much score, no?
It's similar to how most games with levels work. you level up slower and slower the higher level you get.
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On my farm spree to get to level 67... can't wait til it pulls through. Also, when the Oracle gives the card, is it like when he gives a False God prediction or is it the card chosen from the roulette?
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I doubt it would be the card chosen from the roulette, since not many people have 6 Nymphs, or if rare cards showed up.
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I doubt it would be the card chosen from the roulette, since not many people have 6 Nymphs, or if rare cards showed up.
Good point.
So does anyone think the higher level leagues should have a chance to spin upgraded cards? Rares cares to the vets is kind of useless besides that incy 300 electrum.
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I agree, because the decks are going to be on par (if not better) than FG decks.
And any 'farm' deck will drop out very, very quickly.
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The Oracle provides the five copies of the spun card. Nymph days will be even more fun once it's implemented.
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Looks great, so do the players get to customize the stuff?
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The oracle will pick a card for you; your T500 deck is going to have 5 copies of the Oracle's card.
As far as I know, rainbow decks normally don´t have 5 copies of a card, this means, that many of the created decks in the 4 leagues could be NOT rainbow.
How can we solve this problem (or is it no problem)?
[...]
I am also thinking about making the reward system dynamic as well. If the bronze league is played much more than the silver league the coin reward for the bronze league will go down and the silver league reward will go up.
On the other side the chance to get a rare card will remain constant, after a few consecutive wins (6 for bronze, 5 for silver ... 3 for platinum) a special bonus spin is awarded with a high chance (maybe even 100%) to win a rare card.
One way to implement the extra spins could be this : The bonus spin only chooses rare cards from the last deck (or maybe the decks of the row). If there ´s only 1 kind of rare card in the deck, it´s a safe rare card. If not - could be bad for you.
If there´s no rare card in the deck - don´t know.
This way , the bonus spins maintains the rarity of cards - more common rares are given more often.
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I agree that we need sub levels in dexterity thing. In fact, more than 1 sub level. We could have something like "max cards in hand to double draw":
- no double draw
- 0 (double draw if hand is empty)
- 1 (double draw if hand has max 1 card)
- 2 (AI5)
.
.
.
- 6 (FG)
Also, dexterity shouldnt double your deck, I think we could have another attribute to do it. Maybe 1 to allow more cards in deck, and other to allow more than 6 copies of a card (so its possible to create decks with 120 different cards), but this could be complicated and underused. Anyway, I think drawing 2 and doubling deck should be different things.
But, about attributes, I really think they shouldnt be given same cost. Of course HP is less useful tha double draw, so I think increasing it could be easier, coming to 200 in like 10 points, while double draw could easily cost 30. Another way to show their importance is to allow 1 of the attributes each new league, so gold and lower cant use double draw, for example, or maybe can use it up to a given sub level.
About submitting decks, how will the Oracle know its a valid deck? I suppose from Oracle screen I can open the deck submission screen with the cards already in deck, right? What if I skip submitting? I feel it wont affect my previous submissions, same if I submit, so 1 people could really have more than 1 deck in T500, although old decks (like 1 week?) will be removed, so not really many submissions.
Curious thing to think about. If I can be a FG at lv 80, what level you think its fair to be an AI5? 40? 50? 60? Lets discuss :D
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The oracle will pick a card for you; your T500 deck is going to have 5 copies of the Oracle's card.
As far as I know, rainbow decks normally don´t have 5 copies of a card, this means, that many of the created decks in the 4 leagues could be NOT rainbow.
How can we solve this problem (or is it no problem)?
It's not a problem. Rainbow decks can easily have 5 copies of a card.
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Also, dexterity shouldnt double your deck, I think we could have another attribute to do it. Maybe 1 to allow more cards in deck, and other to allow more than 6 copies of a card (so its possible to create decks with 120 different cards), but this could be complicated and underused. Anyway, I think drawing 2 and doubling deck should be different things.
I'm fairly certain that the card-drawing and deck-doubling attributes of FGs are a single chunk of source code and not worth extricating from one another. I'm also pretty sure that the AI5 drawing algorithm is a pre-existent chunk of code and would be easy to work into the existing system; I'm not so sure it would worth Zanz' time to add more steps than 'normal, AI5, AI6' to the Dexterity meter.
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I'm fairly certain that the card-drawing and deck-doubling attributes of FGs are a single chunk of source code and not worth extricating from one another. I'm also pretty sure that the AI5 drawing algorithm is a pre-existent chunk of code and would be easy to work into the existing system; I'm not so sure it would worth Zanz' time to add more steps than 'normal, AI5, AI6' to the Dexterity meter.
Double draw and double deck can really be the same thing, but I doubt adding more draw rates would be difficult. The game already checks how many cards you have in hand a lot, for different effects, like drawing itself, discarding at turn end, Fractal or Nightmare creating copies. Probably this would just be some lines of code, and most of them probably could be copied of AI5 thing. However, dunno if he would like the idea. Most probable like 2, 4 and 6 is enough anyway.
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I love how every topic Zanz creates instantly goes viral...
The t500 system seems wonderful. more than I was expecting. Adds an rpg element to the game that is very interesting and unique.
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How long do you have to keep your deck in T500 before you can make a new one?
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The oracle will pick a card for you; your T500 deck is going to have 5 copies of the Oracle's card.
As far as I know, rainbow decks normally don´t have 5 copies of a card, this means, that many of the created decks in the 4 leagues could be NOT rainbow.
How can we solve this problem (or is it no problem)?
Rainbows are laaaame.
Unused/Monos/Duos/Trios/will finally have their place.
There are still Quantum Pillar, Supernova, and of course, lots of rainbows in PvP1 and 2, so they won't die out.
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What is great is that higher league player can make decks for lower leagues players. Am I right?
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What is great is that higher league player can make decks for lower leagues players. Am I right?
Not yet decided AFAIK. There's a discussion about it (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,27601.0.html).
Can a player with a high score (e.g. lvl 40) generate decks for lower leagues (e.g. Bronze)?
This is something I am actually thinking about:
Letting high level player submit decks in low level leagues might cause a flattening in variety (bronze league have mostly lvl19, silver lvl39, etc.).
However, higher level leagues will yield more coins per win, giving players a reason to move to a higher league.
Not letting high level players in low level leagues might cause certain leagues to overcrowd over time. Right now the score limits are set to divide the entire game population in 4 fractions that are about 25% each; my guess is that the gold league will overcrowd over time.
The discussion about this particular issue is open.
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Lol, some of the decks are gonna be really easy to beat, and some are gonna be really hard. I would like the see the score distribution from 1-500. The range is prolly like 1mil to 20k, which is ridiculous. t500 will be more random that half bloods.
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Another 2k score and I'll move up to Gold league. Time to grind! :D
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Lol, some of the decks are gonna be really easy to beat, and some are gonna be really hard. I would like the see the score distribution from 1-500. The range is prolly like 1mil to 20k, which is ridiculous. t500 will be more random that half bloods.
And probably tougher :)
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One thing I didn't get... can you choose what league you will fight when you click the t500 button?
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One thing I didn't get... can you choose what league you will fight when you click the t500 button?
You can. If you read back you'll find a quote from Zanz or a reference to a previous thread.
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Looks awesome.
Btw.. anyone who didn't notice, the new T500 system teaser (http://www.elementsthegame.com/development.html) is not just an image, you can actually click the buttons to change the stats.
I have feedback based on my initial reactions.
Why is the first one called "Stamina"? Wouldn't "Health" make more sense because that's the stat that gets increased? Instead of "spend one skill point to increase your Stamina which increases your HP", it would simply be "spend one skill point to increase your HP". Most RPG's have different meanings for HP and Stamina, so I find this system a bit confusing.
I personally would see "Stamina" as more like maximum number of cards you can take in your deck. It would fit the definition of stamina better imo. But that's semantics I guess.
I think that "Dexterity" could use some more steps, instead of just being an on/off switch. Something like what teffy suggested earlier could work, although I wouldn't mind having even more steps, like 5-6 of them. I understand it's difficult with card drawing, but maybe Dexterity could have duo-effect or something, like first skill point increasing something and the 2nd one increasing card drawing.
I have one idea for a 5th stat. I know it's probably difficult to code, but it would be cool to have different AI intellect levels as stats. Basically the current AI would have to be made dumber on purpose. Like this:
Dumb = AI back in the day when it did really dumb decisions
Average = Close to current AI, but with some silly/random decisions
Smart = most advanced AI
This would of course need to steal the name from the current "Intellect" (which could be replaced by the word "Power" I guess).
Probably not going to happen, but it's an idea :)
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I have one idea for a 5th stat. I know it's probably difficult to code, but it would be cool to have different AI intellect levels as stats. Basically the current AI would have to be made dumber on purpose. Like this:
Dumb = AI back in the day when it did really dumb decisions
Average = Close to current AI, but with some silly/random decisions
Smart = most advanced AI
Another idea would be to have a random decision factor (Intelligence stat 0-10). For instance:
Intelligence of 0 means your AI has a 100% chance to make random decisions: choose targets randomly instead of using priority (possibly randomly between all enemy/allied creatures, to reduce really bad targeting), or choose to play / not play cards randomly in bad situations, or choose to use abilities on non-prioritary targets and so on and so forth...
An Intelligence of 6 would mean only 40%, while Intelligence 10 means no randomization.
Probably not going to happen, but it's an idea :)
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wowz im level 72 so platinum league here i go
the link for everyone is level 72. check the table below for the actual level. if you really are level 72. oops
i only just read that oops my bad... really only level 40 if you round up but if you round down then level 39
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I'm already calling it for when this is put in place...
most epic update ever...
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Or give an option to create complex conditions , For example , If Creatures on the board < 5 Don't cast *cards name* .
Hehehe , Thats too much isn't it ? Maybe zanz will code something similar next year ;D
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Or give an option to create complex conditions , For example , If Creatures on the board < 5 Don't cast *cards name* .
Hehehe , Thats too much isn't it ? Maybe zanz will code something similar next year ;D
although that would be way too much work, it would be a cool idea.
Some examples:
How many pillars before casting quicksand
How many creatures on the field before casting AoE cards
Use Fire Bolt for CC? (y/n)
Just small things that would give your deck more flavor and personalization, although they would probably be too time consuming.
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the new T500 system teaser (http://www.elementsthegame.com/development.html)
Wooow!, awesome! I didn't care much about T500 when I first heard about it, now I decided to check and found this.
I was like :o :o :o I AM NOW A GOD! , hehe
I'll check how the subscription is and stuff.
Really awesome idea.
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Or give an option to create complex conditions , For example , If Creatures on the board < 5 Don't cast *cards name* .
Hehehe , Thats too much isn't it ? Maybe zanz will code something similar next year ;D
although that would be way too much work, it would be a cool idea.
Some examples:
How many pillars before casting quicksand
How many creatures on the field before casting AoE cards
Use Fire Bolt for CC? (y/n)
Just small things that would give your deck more flavor and personalization, although they would probably be too time consuming.
Some more examples:
Play *permanent name here* only if PA in hand and at least 1 earth quanta available
Play ButterflyEffect only on *creature name here*
Play Shard of Gratitude only when HP < MAX HP
Play Purify when poison counters > x
The list can go on and on ...
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*Farm farm farm farm farm farm spin spin spin spin spin* Where the hell are the Squids?
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Or give an option to create complex conditions , For example , If Creatures on the board < 5 Don't cast *cards name* .
Hehehe , Thats too much isn't it ? Maybe zanz will code something similar next year ;D
although that would be way too much work, it would be a cool idea.
Some examples:
How many pillars before casting quicksand
How many creatures on the field before casting AoE cards
Use Fire Bolt for CC? (y/n)
Just small things that would give your deck more flavor and personalization, although they would probably be too time consuming.
Some more examples:
Play *permanent name here* only if PA in hand and at least 1 earth quanta available
Play ButterflyEffect only on *creature name here*
Play Shard of Gratitude only when HP < MAX HP
Play Purify when poison counters > x
The list can go on and on ...
Yes! Automatas/macros ... a whole new dimension of gaming!
Don't think it will happen though.
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So not only do people want full control of which cards go in their decks, but also how smart their own AI is? Might as well just call it what it is - botting. Most developers try not to be script/bot-friendly; I doubt Zanz will allow something like this to happen.
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So not only do people want full control of which cards go in their decks, but also how smart their own AI is? Might as well just call it what it is - botting. Most developers try not to be script/bot-friendly; I doubt Zanz will allow something like this to happen.
While I also doubt this is going to happen, I fail to see how it is any more similar to botting than T500 already is going to be. Providing manual, granular control over the AI allows for more deck options than just having the standard AI play the decks. All it would do is increase deck variety. The level of obnoxiousness of coding that level of granular control in a format usable by the masses most likely outweighs the benefits from an additional variety in decks, though, which is why I say I also doubt it's going to happen.
IMO, it would be botting if you could make your own decks, program the AI, and then set them loose grinding against AI3/AI5/FG for the benefit of your account. This is asynchronous PvP, just as it was originally intended, even if there were granular AI control.
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So not only do people want full control of which cards go in their decks, but also how smart their own AI is? Might as well just call it what it is - botting. Most developers try not to be script/bot-friendly; I doubt Zanz will allow something like this to happen.
No , I didn't mean anything like a script that will play the game for me . What I meant is when you submit a deck to the top50/500 it won't just play any card whenever it has enough quanta . You can choose what to use ProtectArtifat on , As for now the A.I will waste it on Towers/Pillars.
Zanz can always update the A.I , Why not let us do it.
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I don't think that is "botting" either.
It also isn't disreputable or anything.
IMO, it would be botting if you could make your own decks, program the AI, and then set them loose grinding against AI3/AI5/FG for the benefit of your account. This is asynchronous PvP, just as it was originally intended, even if there were granular AI control.
Jep.
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So not only do people want full control of which cards go in their decks, but also how smart their own AI is? Might as well just call it what it is - botting. Most developers try not to be script/bot-friendly; I doubt Zanz will allow something like this to happen.
I think you misunderstood what we are talking about here.
We are talking about using skill points to control the level of your decks AI, either by increasing the overall intelligence of the AI, or even "programming" (using sliders or whatever) your AI to work in a certain way in certain situations so that it complements the deck you have built. This has nothing to do with botting because it would be a part of Elements, not some external thing.
However, like said before, it would be an insanely complex system, which is why it will probably always stays as just a dream. Too bad, because it would be cool to make those choices between a good deck with dumb AI, and not so good deck with a smart AI.
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Yes, it would be nice to give specific AI rules for your specific deck. I don't think it is worth the time it would take to put into code, though.
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Just dropping by to say that I've, apparently, reached lvl 32 and looking foward T500. This will be awesome having the power of a semi-False-God. hehe :P
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Yes, it would be nice to give specific AI rules for your specific deck. I don't think it is worth the time it would take to put into code, though.
Agreed. Although I ran with the idea, its one of those "Id like it, but I dont see it happening", although I thought the same thing about the changing password, faster game speed, and saving settings. And Zanz took care of those in 1 update
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Yes, it would be nice to give specific AI rules for your specific deck. I don't think it is worth the time it would take to put into code, though.
Being able to "program" your own AI would be a very big coding project, but having multiple levels of AI should be relatively simple, unless I'm missing something.
Right now we have one script which tells the AI what to do. All it would need is to make a copy of that script and make a few changes to it. Each deck would then use either AI script 1 or AI script 2 depending on how the skill points have been spent.
AI scripts could be made act differently by either by changing things like how many creatures have to be on the table until the AI uses Firestorm, or maybe add random element by programming it so that every time the AI is going to do something, there is a 10% chance that it skips that action and moves on to the next one. This way there could be scripts for dumb/smart, aggressive/defensive, etc.
Not the most urgent thing Elements needs, but I personally would enjoy something like this very much because it would give players a lot more control over how their deck performs.
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user-friendly=programmer hostile
Making something that fullfit user's wishes is totally hard for the programmer.
I can actively give an hand with this project but first i need to understand how it's coded.
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Can a player with a high score (e.g. lvl 40) generate decks for lower leagues (e.g. Bronze)?
This is something I am actually thinking about:
Letting high level player submit decks in low level leagues might cause a flattening in variety (bronze league have mostly lvl19, silver lvl39, etc.).
However, higher level leagues will yield more coins per win, giving players a reason to move to a higher league.
Not letting high level players in low level leagues might cause certain leagues to overcrowd over time. Right now the score limits are set to divide the entire game population in 4 fractions that are about 25% each; my guess is that the gold league will overcrowd over time.
The discussion about this particular issue is open.
hmm 2 ideas for this:
1. To prevent any one league form overcrowding too much, how about instead of having fixed score limits for each level, instead make it so the level requirement table is automatically updated every week or even once a month to maintain certain limits(such as ~25% in each league or minimum of 1000 players in each).
2. In order to allow people to submit decks in lower leveled leagues, make it so the deck level determines which league it will be played in. So for example if I have a score of 138k, that puts me at level 64 and would allow me to make a platinum league deck. However if I wanted to compete in the gold league instead, I would have to use less upgrades so that my deck was level 59 or less(if you wanted to provide further incentive for people to compete in the highest level available to them and keep certain leagues from being all max level decks, you could even say that in order to compete in gold league like that, I would have to make no higher than level 55 instead, while people who were actually only level 59 could still use a level 59 deck in gold league, thus giving them some advantage).
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This is going to give add a lot of value to the FG Proposals (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/board,263.0.html) section, considering high level decks can actually fully utilize the decks in there.
Come to think of it, high level players could actually directly copy existing Gods (except for Paradox)! *shudders at Hermes deck*
By the current levels, I'm only level 51 ... better start farming some score.
Actually, forget that, better start farming rares from Top 50 while it lasts ..
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This is going to give add a lot of value to the FG Proposals (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/board,263.0.html) section, considering high level decks can actually fully utilize the decks in there.
I think we're going to add a new section very soon for T500 decks only. If somebody wants to share those, that is.
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can't wait for t500 and the funny deck variety we'll find there :)
has there aaaany rough time estimate been announced yet? like "early summer" maybe? ^^
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Come to think of it, high level players could actually directly copy existing Gods (except for Paradox)! *shudders at Hermes deck*
Yeah, I had also been worried about Hermes-type decks. Rainbow copies would also be hard and also have the added advantage of being able to more easily work in whatever random card the Oracle gives you. Has anyone come up with reliable counters to either of these FG's yet? Also life or fire rush decks could be a problem..if those were already popular for t50 before, think how hard they'll be with a FG version.
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There are many good options against Rainbow, but no counter. The Hermes counter of PA'd Phase Shields and TU has been very reliable for me.
Regardless, you will be seeing much worse decks than those. :>
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you will be seeing much worse decks than those. :>
Yeah, I'm actually practicing with my daily Oracle predictions, and some of the decks I created scare the hell out of me. I'm afraid Platinum League won't be playable.
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Yeah. That's actually something I'm worried about; that the higher Leagues (especially Platinum) are just too frustrating to play. I'm pretty sure that even with those 5 copies of a card requirement I could make decks that are just about unbeatable, and even highly unfavourable if you take a direct counter. Just think about a beefed up Rainbow that has a better quanta balance, Supernovas and some superior choices, like Pulverizer instead of Eagle's Eye. Doesn't really matter which five cards he has to feature, the rest of the deck will still be insane.
An idea I had to possibly fix this: What if your level not only determined the deck you can submit but also your options when you go fight against the T500. So you might fight against triple mark decks but at least you have a triple mark of your own. This seems quite exciting as it would really add another dimension to PvE deckbuilding.
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Or, you can have a sidebar and only need to win 3/5 of the repeated matches against that one deck to win triple the rewards.
Or, you can see the next deck you're going to play in t500 and can build your own deck to counter it.
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Yeah. That's actually something I'm worried about; that the higher Leagues (especially Platinum) are just too frustrating to play. I'm pretty sure that even with those 5 copies of a card requirement I could make decks that are just about unbeatable, and even highly unfavourable if you take a direct counter. Just think about a beefed up Rainbow that has a better quanta balance, Supernovas and some superior choices, like Pulverizer instead of Eagle's Eye. Doesn't really matter which five cards he has to feature, the rest of the deck will still be insane.
An idea I had to possibly fix this: What if your level not only determined the deck you can submit but also your options when you go fight against the T500. So you might fight against triple mark decks but at least you have a triple mark of your own. This seems quite exciting as it would really add another dimension to PvE deckbuilding.
This is a fantastic idea. It is going to be very difficult to give electrum or card rewards that are sufficient to encourage players to play against competitively designed decks with FG powers. But the chance to actually play as a FG? That'd make playing againt t500 my new favorite hobby!
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An idea I had to possibly fix this: What if your level not only determined the deck you can submit but also your options when you go fight against the T500. So you might fight against triple mark decks but at least you have a triple mark of your own. This seems quite exciting as it would really add another dimension to PvE deckbuilding.
Best. Idea. Ever.
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Yeah, I'm definitely looking forward to a new challenge, but balancing this could be tough. The false gods are already difficult to beat more than say 50% of the time as it is(not counting oracle predictions). The one thing that makes them at least somewhat manageable is that there are still a fairly limited number of them, so with a well-designed deck you can at least beat SOME of them most of the time. Even then, for any given deck, there will always be some fg's that are virtually unbeatable(aside from the extremely rare case where you get a perfect draw and they get an unusually bad one). With t500, not only will the decks be even harder, but there will be MUCH greater variety(and especially at the highest levels, these will even be continually adapting to the more popular counter-decks ;) ). It's not too hard to imagine some of these decks being almost completely unbeatable or at least only beatable at all by choosing exactly the right counter(which would then lose against 99% of the other decks).
I'm not sure what can be done to balance this enough to make it at least somewhat possible to win. Having some way to predict what deck you'll be facing would obviously help a lot but unlike the fg oracle predictions, just having a name wouldn't help you any since the decks could be changing every day...you'd have to know what the actual cards in it were. Doing something like that would probably defeat much of the purpose of having t500 to begin with. Adding some new cards might help, but of course this can also go both ways as those new cards will be available for the t500 decks as well. Still something like Mark destruction(at least one mark should probably be untargetable to stop these from completelty shutting down a deck too easily though) or damage per card drawn might be nice as these would cut into the advantages the t500 decks would have. Some other sort of restrictions might need to be placed on t50 decks as well to keep them somewhat manageable, though hard to say what these could be.
In any case, it's safe to say that the days of mindlessly spamming the same CCYB-type deck all day will probably be over :)
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Yeah. That's actually something I'm worried about; that the higher Leagues (especially Platinum) are just too frustrating to play. I'm pretty sure that even with those 5 copies of a card requirement I could make decks that are just about unbeatable, and even highly unfavourable if you take a direct counter. Just think about a beefed up Rainbow that has a better quanta balance, Supernovas and some superior choices, like Pulverizer instead of Eagle's Eye. Doesn't really matter which five cards he has to feature, the rest of the deck will still be insane.
An idea I had to possibly fix this: What if your level not only determined the deck you can submit but also your options when you go fight against the T500. So you might fight against triple mark decks but at least you have a triple mark of your own. This seems quite exciting as it would really add another dimension to PvE deckbuilding.
Of course, your options should probably still be limited according to what league your fighting in at the moment, e.g. you can't bring full FG powers while grinding bronze league.
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I, for one, don't see t500 as the source of huge amounts of income, but rather as the source of endless fun.
I really don't (won't) aim for beating them most of the time (well, atleast not the platinum), but to see "what's hot", and to play fun games everyday.
Of course if I can come up with a tech that beats them regularly, all the better ;)
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An idea I had to possibly fix this: What if your level not only determined the deck you can submit but also your options when you go fight against the T500. So you might fight against triple mark decks but at least you have a triple mark of your own. This seems quite exciting as it would really add another dimension to PvE deckbuilding.
Best. Idea. Ever.
We can haz FG vs. FG fights? :D
No seriously, if we were allowed to do that to our decks when playing the T500, it would put it on so many levels of awesome, as well as expanding on the "RPG" feel of elements (Score = XP) Just checking though - how would the game check to see if we had too many upgraded cards when we enter T50, and would we be limited to Level X of powers in lower leagues? (Like level 30 at Bronze, Level 50 at Silver, etc...)
One other possible idea is to put "Uncommon" types of cards into decks (similar to how some of the recent new cards were first put in random T50 decks), so that people would keep playing to try to get these cards. (Zanz did mention making more shards, too 8) )
Not only does it increase the card pool, it also encourages more people to play T500 to get more cards that aren't as rare as rares, but still give you something to strive for,
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An idea I had to possibly fix this: What if your level not only determined the deck you can submit but also your options when you go fight against the T500. So you might fight against triple mark decks but at least you have a triple mark of your own. This seems quite exciting as it would really add another dimension to PvE deckbuilding.
Yeah, that would definitely work and would also encourage people to level up rather than sitting at level 59 so they can stay at the upper level of gold league rather than having to face platinum.
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I, for one, don't see t500 as the source of huge amounts of income, but rather as the source of endless fun.
I really don't (won't) aim for beating them most of the time (well, atleast not the platinum), but to see "what's hot", and to play fun games everyday.
Of course if I can come up with a tech that beats them regularly, all the better ;)
Yeah, it's unlikely to be a good option for electrum farming or for score. The challenge and variety will probably be the bigger reason to do this, but hopefully it will also be there will also be some other rewards you can only get from here such as rare cards(maybe even nymphs if you can maintain a long enough winning streak?).
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Yeah like platinum league's player are awesome I think that for this guy ONLY nymph and mark can be win from the spins
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Again, besides the endless as Acsabi has said I would also want to reap great rewards, such as upgraded cards. Maybe upgraded cards should be spin-able at Platinum League or something? I would like a greater diversity of upgraded cards besides the ones that can be won from FGs and I don't want to upgrade them myself, as this is a huge waste of electrum (refer to Kevkev's money management thread).
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I concur with the notion that Platinum League will definitively become the 'endgame' -- the True Gods, as it were; the challenge beyond FGs that everyone seems to have always wanted.
As such, I think we should allow t500 spins to produce upgraded cards in a limited fashion: in Bronze League, no upgraded cards may be spun. In Silver League, only the last spin will allow upgraded cards. In Gold League, only the first spin will auto-downgrade the cards. In Platinum League, all spins allow upgraded cards.
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An idea I had to possibly fix this: What if your level not only determined the deck you can submit but also your options when you go fight against the T500. So you might fight against triple mark decks but at least you have a triple mark of your own. This seems quite exciting as it would really add another dimension to PvE deckbuilding.
Best. Idea. Ever.
QFT.
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I actually don't like it so much. Going FG-on-FG sounds cool at first, but it essentially makes the leagues variations on the same level of challenge. I'd rather have the ultimate challenge of the Platinum League to pit myself against than have the PL be a place where my opponent and I were still on an even keel but just with different rules. That sounds like t50 with complications, not like a whole new level of PvE experience.
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I also don't like buffing yourself that much because that's like playing the main character of a puzzle platformer and then, on the last level, giving your character the ability to fly and phase through walls. The reason it's difficult to play against them is because they're buffed up and we're still...normal. Both players having 200 HP and 20 attack is not a more "epic" match than both players having 100 HP and 10 attack.
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I also don't like buffing yourself that much because that's like playing the main character of a puzzle platformer and then, on the last level, giving your character the ability to fly and phase through walls. The reason it's difficult to play against them is because they're buffed up and we're still...normal. Both players having 200 HP and 20 attack is not a more "epic" match than both players having 100 HP and 10 attack.
But, the deckbuilding would be completely different.
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I'm just slightly confused about where the fun is going to go. I get that PvP is still there (though it will be different) and the Top 500 will give a new expansion to the game, the FG will be boring. FGs are only fun because you are weaker then them. If you become a FG, then shouldn't there also be something above the FG. I for one would love to see a L7/8 with more HP, maybe a little smarter (come on, I haven't used that hourglass all game FG), more cards, better cards. Just something to make the game have some sort of challenge. FG used to be hard but if you are equal to it, FGs will cease to be a difficulty. And playing T500 isn't the same as playing set decks.
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I'm just slightly confused about where the fun is going to go. I get that PvP is still there (though it will be different) and the Top 500 will give a new expansion to the game, the FG will be boring. FGs are only fun because you are weaker then them. If you become a FG, then shouldn't there also be something above the FG. I for one would love to see a L7/8 with more HP, maybe a little smarter (come on, I haven't used that hourglass all game FG), more cards, better cards. Just something to make the game have some sort of challenge. FG used to be hard but if you are equal to it, FGs will cease to be a difficulty. And playing T500 isn't the same as playing set decks.
You misunderstand the system: You will not be able to have 3x mark, 2x card/draw, 200 HP, etc. Only the deck you put up in the t500 will have those attributes.
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@manstrong: The tangent we were going on was only for the decks we would bring against t500.
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The point is just that trying to beat the following deck (add any 5 cards in there, it doesn't really matter, at worse you should change mark accordingly) is about as uneven and frustrating as it gets. It's just Rainbow copypasted, it's rather suboptimal and believe me I created far worse and I'm level 60.
6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6u1 6u1 6u1 74d 74d 74d 77g 77g 77g 77g 7ah 7ah 7ah 7dm 7dm 7dm 7dm 7gn 7gn 7k2 7k2 7n5 7q5 7q5 7q5 7q5 7q5 7t9 7t9 7t9 80a 80a ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
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Very Exciting!
When you submit a new deck, does it erase your old one or get added to the mix? It's cool to think that a superior deck builder could have several (or more than several) powerful T500 decks at play. I like the idea of decks bleeding off HP's, but should it be based on the user's login, or actual battle results?
Great work! I won't ask when it will be ready because I know I won't get an answer, but I'm very excited! This will certainly rejuvenate my Elements Addiction!
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The point is just that trying to beat the following deck (add any 5 cards in there, it doesn't really matter, at worse you should change mark accordingly) is about as uneven and frustrating as it gets. It's just Rainbow copypasted, it's rather suboptimal and believe me I created far worse and I'm level 60.
6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6u1 6u1 6u1 74d 74d 74d 77g 77g 77g 77g 7ah 7ah 7ah 7dm 7dm 7dm 7dm 7gn 7gn 7k2 7k2 7n5 7q5 7q5 7q5 7q5 7q5 7t9 7t9 7t9 80a 80a ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
Don't ofrget that you can add 6 SoGs and SoDs to the mix...
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Oh, there's no doubt that Platinum League and even Gold League will probably be tougher fights than FGs -- I'm just saying so long as we make the rewards commensurate with the risks, that's a GOOD THING.
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I have 2 quick questions:
1) How many people play Elements and how many total would be registered for each category? (As in out of 1,000 Bronze level people, 50% get in)
2) Can I play people in different divisions then myself? I am at the very bottom of Gold (I think about level 43) so do I just play Gold members and not have the opportunity to play other groups?
Make it 3) What about T50(0) farming? A lot of my rares come from T50, so do I need to hurry up and get 12 of each now?
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Oh, there's no doubt that Platinum League and even Gold League will probably be tougher fights than FGs -- I'm just saying so long as we make the rewards commensurate with the risks, that's a GOOD THING.
I don't really see the need for a level of play that's significantly tougher than FGs. It's not generally fun to lose a whole lot, and it seems to me that people attempting to play the platinum league will be achieving extremely low win percentages, perhaps 10-20%.
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Very Exciting!
When you submit a new deck, does it erase your old one or get added to the mix? It's cool to think that a superior deck builder could have several (or more than several) powerful T500 decks at play. I like the idea of decks bleeding off HP's, but should it be based on the user's login, or actual battle results?
Great work! I won't ask when it will be ready because I know I won't get an answer, but I'm very excited! This will certainly rejuvenate my Elements Addiction!
1 submitted deck per player, 1 submission per day.
Your deck is in the league until it drops out or you submit another one.
Cannot link the source but I think theese are Zanz's statements.
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It will be something we have to see, due to the fact that fg decks dont "drop out" after beaten, and since there is a large amount of players that will be playing it, the hard decks will eventually get beaten. Besides, not everyone will know how to make an insanely powerful "FG Deck"
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So, having read through the thread, let me pose a question that may or may not be completely off-base, depending on if I missed a post or not:
Let's say that I've got a really good deck with great score that's making me good money in t500, but i want to use the oracle. Would it in fact be necessary for me to make a new deck, or could i just let the one i have stand?
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It will be something we have to see, due to the fact that fg decks dont "drop out" after beaten, and since there is a large amount of players that will be playing it, the hard decks will eventually get beaten. Besides, not everyone will know how to make an insanely powerful "FG Deck"
Not everyone knows how to make threatening decks, but we're mostly talking about gold or especially platinum leagues, which will be populated by more experienced players.
Also, the more difficult it is, the less likely that there will actually be a "large amount of players" attempting to beat them.
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It will be something we have to see, due to the fact that fg decks dont "drop out" after beaten, and since there is a large amount of players that will be playing it, the hard decks will eventually get beaten. Besides, not everyone will know how to make an insanely powerful "FG Deck"
Not everyone knows how to make threatening decks, but we're mostly talking about gold or especially platinum leagues, which will be populated by more experienced players.
or just people with no life that do nothing but grind ai3 all day... veteran /=/ experienced.
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or just people with no life that do nothing but grind ai3 all day... veteran /=/ experienced.
Sure. But in general someone who's spent that much time on the game either is a good player, or at least knows how to copy/paste the decks of others, which is all it takes to turn platinum league into AI6-with-nothing-but-Hermes-and-Rainbow.
Anyway, there are various ways to solve this potential problem. Giving abilities like 3x mark is a nice solution in that it both lowers the difficulty to a more enjoyable level and also gives ppl a reason to fight t500 over other AI levels, because of the fun factor of playing with extra abilities. You wouldn't even have to give out large electrum rewards or chances for upped spins (thus leaving good reasons to still play other AI levels too).
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or just people with no life that do nothing but grind ai3 all day... veteran /=/ experienced.
I knew you had it out for me, BluePriest!
:P
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Oh, there's no doubt that Platinum League and even Gold League will probably be tougher fights than FGs -- I'm just saying so long as we make the rewards commensurate with the risks, that's a GOOD THING.
*shakes head*
Imagine for a moment that T500 has been here for a while, and the veterans (mostly Platinum level people) had the time to get used to it. Imagine that T500 Platinum League rewards are VERY intresting (i.e. all cards upped, five spins, every three fights you win an automatic rare card, which is quite possible). So, you want to farm T500 Platinum League.
What will you expect in there? Fully upped decks with a powerful strategy, many hp, fully functional for the AI to play, fast versatile and deadly. I'm expecting a mix of rainbow rushes, poison stalls and destroyer rushes, possibly some other intresting decks once in a while. No matter the 5 cards rule, you can almost always create one of those archetypes.
What would you bring? A control heavy deck with purifies. You need fast control, otherwise destroyer rushes will kill you; but you also need repeatable control, otherwise rainbow rushes will kill you. You need to go rainbow, otherwise you haven't got enough options, and you need an implacable assault (like neurotoxin) otherwise you're losing to control decks.
The problem is that rainbow rushes can pack any kind of card to answer to your strategy, and are a whole lot faster than you'd like them to be. You try poison, they have purifies; you try rushing they have 200hp and miracles, you try controlling, they have massive PC, you try Black Hole they have more quanta, SNovas and Sanctuary.
Destroyer Rushes can quite probably get 4 turns wins reliably. If you try to control them, you'll probably end up losing to their double draw alone: you can't keep up.
Poison stalls will be the easier sort... except that they can be REALLY fast. Try going against an FG-level Speed Poison: you'll end up having more than 30 poison in about 6 turns. Also, they will pack defenses that almost eliminate your chances of victory. A False God with 12 Shards of Gratitude? Come on!
You end up with the following conclusion: trying to outstall them is quite frankly impossible, so you have to rush them. Your win rate will be very low, but at least you'll win against bad draws. Da Fastest Speedbow Eva can kill FGs on a good hand, and I'm sure it can be tweaked. Except that when Platinum people manage to figure this out they will add counter cards in their decks: heavy CC, BHs, 12 rewinds... there are endless possibilities. They will sacrifice speed for that, so that I will be able to outstall them, you say? No. They will just switch around a couple cards, since in a 60 cards deck it is rarely a problem.
Really, Platinum will have the lowest win rate EVER. No matter how much the rewards are, you're just going to lose too many duels, forcing you to speed farm for it to be worth it, making it really easy to be hard countered. How fun is playing Octane with RoL Hope? 90% of the times you're going to end up with that kind of duel...
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An idea I had to possibly fix this: What if your level not only determined the deck you can submit but also your options when you go fight against the T500. So you might fight against triple mark decks but at least you have a triple mark of your own. This seems quite exciting as it would really add another dimension to PvE deckbuilding.
That would be incredibly awesome.
Platinum league players using Rainbow's deck? No problem. Let's see how they enjoy facing my Dark Matter deck (mono gravity DM ftw)!
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An idea I had to possibly fix this: What if your level not only determined the deck you can submit but also your options when you go fight against the T500. So you might fight against triple mark decks but at least you have a triple mark of your own. This seems quite exciting as it would really add another dimension to PvE deckbuilding.
That would be incredible awesome.
Platinum league players using Rainbow's deck? No problem. Let's see how they enjoy facing my DARK MATTER deck (mono gravity DM ftw)!
Actually... SN + Sanctuary?
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Imagine for a moment that T500 has been here for a while, and the veterans (mostly Platinum level people) had the time to get used to it. Imagine that T500 Platinum League rewards are VERY intresting (i.e. all cards upped, five spins, every three fights you win an automatic rare card, which is quite possible). So, you want to farm T500 Platinum League.
What will you expect in there? Fully upped decks with a powerful strategy, many hp, fully functional for the AI to play, fast versatile and deadly. I'm expecting a mix of rainbow rushes, poison stalls and destroyer rushes, possibly some other intresting decks once in a while. No matter the 5 cards rule, you can almost always create one of those archetypes. [...]
I see three possible outcomes for T500-Platinum and Gold perhaps.
Probably all three will we in place at the same time:
1. Decks aren't as good as you expect them to be because:
- AI screws up a lot ... I mean, creating a viable FG is a matter of rebalancing until the AI gets it right for quite a long time.
Why would creating a random other deck with the same rules be any easier?
- You have 5 predetermined cards ... Of course, those decks which had to be made with 5 skeletons etc. will probably just fall out of the ranking
pretty soon and only those that got lucky to be built with 5 destroyers etc. will remain up there.
Still, it's really not like you have all the freedom you would want when doing your deck ... most of them are going to suck.
2. People will just use their FG-decks to farm T500 ... end of story
And why wouldn't they? The pandemonium of FGs is very, very varied by now so there is really nothing a 50%-winrate
CCYB or Rol/Hope cannot cope with ... T500 as the FG-league of players and we have a new FG-boom.
3. Farmdecks
Yes, they will drop out rather fast and yes it does seem a bit disreputable in a system like this but:
You will get the chance to submit a deck once a day ... for how long will you be motivated to come up with something
real and challenging every day? T50, on the surface, seems like you would want to be competitive and a whole
culture of farmdecks has emerged ... Here's guessing that at least 20% of all decks will be farms or total jokes meant
to get you cash. And even if they drop out ... there are some 100 farms more to come every day.
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I want to keep tabs on this topic.
Also anyone have idea when to expect this to be released?
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I see three possible outcomes for T500-Platinum and Gold perhaps.
1. Decks aren't as good as you expect them to be because:
- AI screws up a lot ... I mean, creating a viable FG is a matter of rebalancing until the AI gets it right for quite a long time.
Why would creating a random other deck with the same rules be any easier?
AI is not as bad as it seems. The only major weakness I see in the AI right now is its failure to recognize Phoenix as a proper Immolation target (which is, in fact, a rather big flaw). However, my testing with the trainer AI shows that most decks are properly used by the AI.
- You have 5 predetermined cards ... Of course, those decks which had to be made with 5 skeletons etc. will probably just fall out of the ranking
pretty soon and only those that got lucky to be built with 5 destroyers etc. will remain up there.
Still, it's really not like you have all the freedom you would want when doing your deck ... most of them are going to suck.
I created a deck for about half of the cards right now, and let me say that it's rather easy to create a practically unbeatable deck with every card out there. Dagger and some shields prove difficult, but it's still possible to be deadly with some thought.
2. People will just use their FG-decks to farm T500 ... end of story
How many FG decks are capable of beating Rainbow and Hermes reliably? The decks in Platinum will be far, far worse than those. Rainbow and Hermes have rather big, slow and inefficient decks right now. Also, it's easy to add counters to those main strategies. For instance, if people start using I've GotP Time massively against T500 Platinum League you're going to get decks with a lot of PC (possibly Pulverizer), fast offense and anti-quint shields (Fire Buckler, Permafrost...).
And why wouldn't they? The pandemonium of FGs is very, very varied by now so there is really nothing a 50%-winrate
CCYB or Rol/Hope cannot cope with ... T500 as the FG-league of players and we have a new FG-boom.
If T500 kicks in, I'll show you a couple decks that FG farmers just cannot cope with.
3. Farmdecks
Yes, they will drop out rather fast and yes it does seem a bit disreputable in a system like this but:
You will get the chance to submit a deck once a day ... for how long will you be motivated to come up with something
real and challenging every day? T50, on the surface, seems like you would want to be competitive and a whole
culture of farmdecks has emerged ... Here's guessing that at least 20% of all decks will be farms or total jokes meant
to get you cash. And even if they drop out ... there are some 100 farms more to come every day.
I expect this to not be really true, as you're gaining / losing score and electrum with the deck you're submitting...
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An interesting thing to think about for me, is that if platinum players all build decks that are virtually impossible to beat, then no one will play platinum. If this turns out to be the case, I think it would maybe be logical for platinum players to agree to nerf their own decks so that more people will play and therefore they will get more wins despite the decks being less powerful. Then its this balancing act between the strength of the new deck you're putting in and the overall strength of the league. You want your deck to be more powerful than the league average but if there is too much of an arms race and everyone wants to be the most powerful then the league will be too powerful and no one will play it.
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And if no one plays Platinum League and Zanz implements the dynamic rewards idea, then winning Platinum League at least once would be well worth all the potential losses.
Gambling is fun :P
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Will you be able to "challenge" any league? I'm at the bottom of Gold so does that mean I can only battle with other golds?
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A thought about the bronze league. If everyone was able to post decks for it, it would be filled with random decks and playing it would pose no chalange whatsoever. I think that could be solved by locking the option to post your decks for T500 until you beat your first false god.
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Will you be able to "challenge" any league? I'm at the bottom of Gold so does that mean I can only battle with other golds?
no.
A thought about the bronze league. If everyone was able to post decks for it, it would be filled with random decks and playing it would pose no chalange whatsoever. I think that could be solved by locking the option to post your decks for T500 until you beat your first false god.
IMO the bronze will be cramped with higher level players who, for one reason or another, don't wanna submit in higher leagues.
ATM I'm at the bottom of platinum and I think I'll be posting in Gold.
the same might be true for Gold and silver players too.
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An interesting thing to think about for me, is that if platinum players all build decks that are virtually impossible to beat, then no one will play platinum. If this turns out to be the case, I think it would maybe be logical for platinum players to agree to nerf their own decks so that more people will play and therefore they will get more wins despite the decks being less powerful. Then its this balancing act between the strength of the new deck you're putting in and the overall strength of the league. You want your deck to be more powerful than the league average but if there is too much of an arms race and everyone wants to be the most powerful then the league will be too powerful and no one will play it.
Arms races inevitably end up not favoring the group. Because any one individual would profit by accelerating the arms race, there's always going to be one individual who is either unaware of the group or simply doesn't care, and that individual will benefit more than everyone else. Eventually, the group will rise to a minimum of that individual's level, until another individual with a slightly better idea decides to break away from the group, at which point the group will rise to his level, and so on.
No, Platinum League is going to be Hell Mode. And I love it.
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I guess it depends to an extent on whether or not zanz decides to let players submit decks to any league. If he does, then the people who actually want to make money will play in the lower leagues and the people who want to show off can sit in platinum and build decks that no one will even want to see. If he doesn't then people will want to make money by building tough decks in platinum and also want to maintain a sane league strength to attract opponents. It would make sense for platinum players to communicate with each other to try and balance the league on their own.
My point really is that there may be a balance to be found without giving normal people god powers to battle higher level decks and without giving out huge rewards.
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My main concern is basically this: If the Top500 ranking is supposed to have any meaning, you will need thousands or even tenthousands of games per day. Otherwise each of the 500 different decks will get only a couple of games which makes for a not very significant ranking. In other words, T500 needs to be grindable.
So the question is would people grind Platinum League as it is. With an expected winrate of maybe 10-20% ? I just don't think so. Sure one might try it once in a while if you're feeling lucky, but overall I think it would just not be fun getting thrashed over and over.
Since my idea of also leveling your own deck has seem some positive acclaim, here are some further thoughts how it could be handled:
- Before playing T500 you choose a level for your deck. This level may be anything between 0 and your Level in Top500, but not above that. Of course you have to build your deck with the restrictions for that level.
- When you win a match against T500, your reward is weighed with the difference of your deck's level and the opponent's level. So if you are a lvl 80 player, you can make a level 80 deck and tear through Bronze League, but your reward for a match win would be very slim. On the other hand you can also build a lvl 0 deck and try Platinum League (and probably get crushed), but if you manage to win - payday.
- That payout function obviously has to be pretty sophisticated - you probably don't want abuses where you can just grind through lower leagues with a high level deck and gain massive score, and low level vs. high level lottery seems pretty silly too. I guess it should mainly encourage the player to pick roughly even opponents, as those games tend to be most fun - challenging, but with enough success moments.
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I don't really share the worries; what is so hard about Platinum league when they can draw 2 cards but Fg-s can draw 3? And they must have some obligatory cards there. I guess that it would be enough if there were a bit better awards when you win against higher leagues (upgraded cards, better winning percent or score or something like that). And I would love to see a big variety of decks in different levels of hardness.
Oh well, I don't have any influence anyway as I just found :( .
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FG's can't draw 3 cards per turn.
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Since my idea of also leveling your own deck has seem some positive acclaim, here are some further thoughts how it could be handled:
- Before playing T500 you choose a level for your deck. This level may be anything between 0 and your Level in Top500, but not above that. Of course you have to build your deck with the restrictions for that level.
- When you win a match against T500, your reward is weighed with the difference of your deck's level and the opponent's level. So if you are a lvl 80 player, you can make a level 80 deck and tear through Bronze League, but your reward for a match win would be very slim. On the other hand you can also build a lvl 0 deck and try Platinum League (and probably get crushed), but if you manage to win - payday.
- That payout function obviously has to be pretty sophisticated - you probably don't want abuses where you can just grind through lower leagues with a high level deck and gain massive score, and low level vs. high level lottery seems pretty silly too. I guess it should mainly encourage the player to pick roughly even opponents, as those games tend to be most fun - challenging, but with enough success moments.
This would probably be acceptable for everyone. Nobody would force Essence to grind Platinum with a level 70+ deck, and he could easily play with a level 20 one (fully upped) and if he wins (10-20% win rate expected) he will have all kinds of riches. He will also benefit other Platinum Leaguers by increasing decks' score and rewards :P
At the same time, we will be able to play Platinum with an acceptable winrate, probably still low as famous and effective T500 grinders will be countered hard, and the League will have good playability and rewards.
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My main concern is basically this: If the Top500 ranking is supposed to have any meaning, you will need thousands or even tenthousands of games per day. Otherwise each of the 500 different decks will get only a couple of games which makes for a not very significant ranking. In other words, T500 needs to be grindable.
So the question is would people grind Platinum League as it is. With an expected winrate of maybe 10-20% ? I just don't think so. Sure one might try it once in a while if you're feeling lucky, but overall I think it would just not be fun getting thrashed over and over.
Since my idea of also leveling your own deck has seem some positive acclaim, here are some further thoughts how it could be handled:
- Before playing T500 you choose a level for your deck. This level may be anything between 0 and your Level in Top500, but not above that. Of course you have to build your deck with the restrictions for that level.
- When you win a match against T500, your reward is weighed with the difference of your deck's level and the opponent's level. So if you are a lvl 80 player, you can make a level 80 deck and tear through Bronze League, but your reward for a match win would be very slim. On the other hand you can also build a lvl 0 deck and try Platinum League (and probably get crushed), but if you manage to win - payday.
- That payout function obviously has to be pretty sophisticated - you probably don't want abuses where you can just grind through lower leagues with a high level deck and gain massive score, and low level vs. high level lottery seems pretty silly too. I guess it should mainly encourage the player to pick roughly even opponents, as those games tend to be most fun - challenging, but with enough success moments.
I think this is the best idea yet :)
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Making t500 SO hard isn't a good idea and can kill the idea.. Seriously do you have fun when you face FG like rainbow ? not me except with RoL hope who can win..
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I'm expecting a mix of rainbow rushes, poison stalls and destroyer rushes, possibly some other intresting decks once in a while. No matter the 5 cards rule, you can almost always create one of those archetypes.
This is a very good point (along with the rest of your message). Perhaps one way to avoid this monotony would be to have a counter that tallies the use of every card in every deck of a particular T500 league, then gives the pay out for successful T500 decks based off some sort of logarithmic scale where lesser used cards are worth significantly more rewards to the deckbuilder. If this were the case, it would far less profitable to use a carbon copy deck.
------ >>>>
And while we are on automated deck analysis, it would be great if players could have more than one t500 deck running at a time, particularly if the cards in each deck differed by some set amount (say 40% different). I would hate to think that uber creative people could only have one great thing going at a time. (I would love to see what Jmdt could do unhindered!)
Peace - Lokiburn
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This is a very good point (along with the rest of your message). Perhaps one way to avoid this monotony would be to have a counter that tallies the use of every card in every deck of a particular T500 league, then gives the pay out for successful T500 decks based off some sort of logarithmic scale where lesser used cards are worth significantly more rewards to the deckbuilder. If this were the case, it would far less profitable to use a carbon copy deck.
Calculating that for every single game(or even once for every time someone submits a deck) would probably be far too much work to be worthwhile
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This is a very good point (along with the rest of your message). Perhaps one way to avoid this monotony would be to have a counter that tallies the use of every card in every deck of a particular T500 league, then gives the pay out for successful T500 decks based off some sort of logarithmic scale where lesser used cards are worth significantly more rewards to the deckbuilder. If this were the case, it would far less profitable to use a carbon copy deck.
Calculating that for every single game(or even once for every time someone submits a deck) would probably be far too much work to be worthwhile
I'm pretty sure there will be some people who submit different t500 decks just for the sake of having different decks in there. I mean whats the reward for having a good deck in t500 anyways? A bit of electrum?
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There's also the fact that if a certain deck type becomes too popular, everyone will start using a deck which specifically counters that type and it will become less effective, thus there will be more of a reward anyway for coming up with strong but original decks.
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There's also the fact that if a certain deck type becomes too popular, everyone will start using a deck which specifically counters that type and it will become less effective, thus there will be more of a reward anyway for coming up with strong but original decks.
Except that nobody really figured out a true counter to buffed-up Rainbow, Hermes AND Scorpio...
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This is a very good point (along with the rest of your message). Perhaps one way to avoid this monotony would be to have a counter that tallies the use of every card in every deck of a particular T500 league, then gives the pay out for successful T500 decks based off some sort of logarithmic scale where lesser used cards are worth significantly more rewards to the deckbuilder. If this were the case, it would far less profitable to use a carbon copy deck.
Calculating that for every single game(or even once for every time someone submits a deck) would probably be far too much work to be worthwhile
Oh. I'm not a coder so i don't know. Seems straight forward compared to the majority of computer tech that I don't begin to have a clue about how it works, but like I said. As far as being worthwhile, I think anything that encourages creativity and innovation from the player base is very worthwhile, and the original post I was responding to painted a potentially bleak outcome, which may or may not be the case at all, but if so, should be addressed.
Guess we'll just see what happens
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Really great, as always!!!!!!
Compliments! ;) ;) ;) ;)
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There's also the fact that if a certain deck type becomes too popular, everyone will start using a deck which specifically counters that type and it will become less effective, thus there will be more of a reward anyway for coming up with strong but original decks.
Except that nobody really figured out a true counter to buffed-up Rainbow, Hermes AND Scorpio...
in theory, a good DBH can beat anything except immodecks. A good DBH with AMs can even beat immodecks, but I don't (yet) know how to squeeze those in...
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Well, not really. Adding antimatters will either weaken the damage or denial, causing you to lose to stalls or rainbows.
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by 'in theory', I meant "with a perfect draw" (i.e. drawing the DBH engine when needed and drawing AMs when the opponent plays the Destroyers/dragons.)
In theory, that deck has all the answers.
:P
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maybe adding 1/2 GP will be enough to beat destroyer rushes.. Anyway I hope this will be very fun !
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in theory, a good DBH can beat anything except immodecks. A good DBH with AMs can even beat immodecks, but I don't (yet) know how to squeeze those in...
Until of course someone Oracles up some Sanctuaries. ;)
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There's also the fact that if a certain deck type becomes too popular, everyone will start using a deck which specifically counters that type and it will become less effective, thus there will be more of a reward anyway for coming up with strong but original decks.
Except that nobody really figured out a true counter to buffed-up Rainbow, Hermes AND Scorpio...
in theory, a good DBH can beat anything except immodecks. A good DBH with AMs can even beat immodecks, but I don't (yet) know how to squeeze those in...
Nope. First of all, Sanctuary is going to be common in Rainbows, because it answers well the most direct counter - Black Hole. Why skipping what would be good protection for nothing?
Second, upped environment has definitely more answers for DBH. Upped quanta producers and low cost PC is enough to stop DBH, as well as most shields, and with a 3x Mark you're going to consistently see those.
Third, DBH severely lacks damage. It always did, even with upped Amethysts. Having a 200 hp opponent means you're very much likely to not have enough BHs to stop them from starting, and DBH is all about denial, can't really put up a fight without that.
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There's also the fact that if a certain deck type becomes too popular, everyone will start using a deck which specifically counters that type and it will become less effective, thus there will be more of a reward anyway for coming up with strong but original decks.
Except that nobody really figured out a true counter to buffed-up Rainbow, Hermes AND Scorpio...
in theory, a good DBH can beat anything except immodecks. A good DBH with AMs can even beat immodecks, but I don't (yet) know how to squeeze those in...
Nope. First of all, Sanctuary is going to be common in Rainbows, because it answers well the most direct counter - Black Hole. Why skipping what would be good protection for nothing?
Second, upped environment has definitely more answers for DBH. Upped quanta producers and low cost PC is enough to stop DBH, as well as most shields, and with a 3x Mark you're going to consistently see those.
Third, DBH severely lacks damage. It always did, even with upped Amethysts. Having a 200 hp opponent means you're very much likely to not have enough BHs to stop them from starting, and DBH is all about denial, can't really put up a fight without that.
It COULD work, but only if they got an early grav nymph and the other didn't play sanctuarys. But otherwise, i agree completely, it will be just about useless.
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IMO a discord is faster than a sanc.
And don't forget that you'll be drawing 2x aswell.
I think I will try platinum with some sort of a deck like that, until we come up with good platinum farmers.
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sanc is faster than discord because having 1/6 of your deck be sancs isn't as bad as having 1/6 of your deck be discords.
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sanc is faster than discord because having 1/6 of your deck be sancs isn't as bad as having 1/6 of your deck be discords.
nope, turn1 discord is totally possible with a lucky hand(we are talking about upped environment here). A T2 one is almost sure.
In a rainbow, you have to wait a SN to play your sanc unless extremely lucky with quantum pillars, and your mark is :light
That places the first sanc around T2-3.
Moreover, most rainbow decks are 30+ cards so that's not really 1/6 of your deck being sancs.
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You know what else this thread should branch off into? Sandwiches. I could really use a sandwich right now.
but on a serious note why does this matter? and why is this DBH discussion in this thread.
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I wonder if shards will be allowed ?
Facing a 12 SoG stall deck will be a nightmare.
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nice ideal zan just thought but maken 125 decks be farms at very least might help also t50 is pain as is hardly any decks able help anyone and such its just thought dont hafto tho ttyl
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I don't know about anyone else, but i am utterly confused by this... ???
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nice ideal zan just thought but maken 125 decks be farms at very least might help also t50 is pain as is hardly any decks able help anyone and such its just thought dont hafto tho ttyl
Hes making top500 to get rid of farms, to make rares actually rare again.
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nice ideal zan just thought but maken 125 decks be farms at very least might help also t50 is pain as is hardly any decks able help anyone and such its just thought dont hafto tho ttyl
Hes making top500 to get rid of farms, to make rares actually rare again.
okay no problem in that as said its ideal and if thats so he need up electum/ money or what ever cause takes about 150 dang matchs for single up card and its anoying big time
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nice ideal zan just thought but maken 125 decks be farms at very least might help also t50 is pain as is hardly any decks able help anyone and such its just thought dont hafto tho ttyl
Hes making top500 to get rid of farms, to make rares actually rare again.
okay no problem in that as said its ideal and if thats so he need up electum/ money or what ever cause takes about 150 dang matchs for single up card and its anoying big time
Not quite 150... You should read before saying such things :P
I am also thinking about making the reward system dynamic as well. If the bronze league is played much more than the silver league the coin reward for the bronze league will go down and the silver league reward will go up.
On the other side the chance to get a rare card will remain constant, after a few consecutive wins (6 for bronze, 5 for silver ... 3 for platinum) a special bonus spin is awarded with a high chance (maybe even 100%) to win a rare card.
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nice ideal zan just thought but maken 125 decks be farms at very least might help also t50 is pain as is hardly any decks able help anyone and such its just thought dont hafto tho ttyl
Hes making top500 to get rid of farms, to make rares actually rare again.
okay no problem in that as said its ideal and if thats so he need up electum/ money or what ever cause takes about 150 dang matchs for single up card and its anoying big time
Not quite 150... You should read before saying such things :P
I am also thinking about making the reward system dynamic as well. If the bronze league is played much more than the silver league the coin reward for the bronze league will go down and the silver league reward will go up.
On the other side the chance to get a rare card will remain constant, after a few consecutive wins (6 for bronze, 5 for silver ... 3 for platinum) a special bonus spin is awarded with a high chance (maybe even 100%) to win a rare card.
double true and double wrong if u have constant good luck it be less with u have good luck on element master it be more if u dont have good luck and lose alot thats reason i said 150 good luck dont realy count not everyone has good luck even fewer have very good luck
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I have been working hard on the T500 lately. I decided that if I had to replace the T50 with something else, the "something else" should be definitively better than the T50... so a big project turned into a huge one.
I also decided to rename the T500 to a more user friendly "Arena".
This is a screen shot of the arena interface, the electrum rewards you see there are dynamic, when a particular league gets lots of clicks its reward goes down and the other leagues' rewards go up.
(http://www.elementsthegame.com/arena.jpg)
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Looks spiffy!
I think "The Arena" is a much better name :)
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Looks spiffy!
I think "The Arena" is a much better name :)
Agreed...also means if there aren't 500+ decks for each league, you don't have to worry about changing the name :)
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Looks great.
I wonder if we get to see the mark + a random card from the opposing deck we face next in each league? Or are those just placeholder images?
My only concern here would be the "Your Deck" label. It's how the game refers to both the deck you use to fight in the league *and* the deck that fights for you in the league. This could be a source of much confusion for newbies and the casual players not reading the forums (unless explained very well in some other place where people are 100% sure to read it). I think the deck representing you should be called something else. "Your Contestant Deck" or something cooler sounding.
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I have been working hard on the T500 lately. I decided that if I had to replace the T50 with something else, the "something else" should be definitively better than the T50... so a big project turned into a huge one.
I also decided to rename the T500 to a more user friendly "Arena".
This is a screen shot of the arena interface, the electrum rewards you see there are dynamic, when a particular league gets lots of clicks its reward goes down and the other leagues' rewards go up.
I think we need a Quest to introduce new players to the Arena. That would solve most problems. It could also give Zanzarino an easy chance, while meddling with Quest code, to put the Level 6 button outside of the Quest button, for easier use... ::)
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I have been working hard on the T500 lately. I decided that if I had to replace the T50 with something else, the "something else" should be definitively better than the T50... so a big project turned into a huge one.
I also decided to rename the T500 to a more user friendly "Arena".
This is a screen shot of the arena interface, the electrum rewards you see there are dynamic, when a particular league gets lots of clicks its reward goes down and the other leagues' rewards go up.
I think we need a Quest to introduce new players to the Arena. That would solve most problems. It could also give Zanzarino an easy chance, while meddling with Quest code, to put the Level 6 button outside of the Quest button, for easier use... ::)
That would absolutely be great.
And - awesome pic!
Just have a question - Will 'Arena' be avible on Kong?
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Bahaha, I know exactly how you feel, zanz. When inspiration strikes, it's unstoppable and projects just grow and grow. That looks absolutely amazing <3
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If we can only carry "normal" decks in league platinum and gold I see no great advantage in the leagues. Consider that against the false gods you must take special decks if you dont want to end up your electrum, I do not imagine how boring it can be confronted against an Supa Masta Deck Gansta done by a top player like 10men, jmbt or Girl Generation. I think the game dont need another 4 griding buttons.
On the other side the chance to get a rare card will remain constant, after a few consecutive wins (6 for bronze, 5 for silver ... 3 for platinum) a special bonus spin is awarded with a high chance (maybe even 100%) to win a rare card.
Lots of pages and nobody ask about shards. I only miss a SoR but for newbies could be really mess up.
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Zanz, can we have a rough date on this so we know when to be ready by?
Also, Great Work! The Arena looks AMAZING and will add another aspect to the game. YAY!
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That screenshot looks great and i like the arena interface. :D
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That arena pic looks amazing :D
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Shiny. Nice curved design. Looking forward to this.
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Looks awesome. I cannot wait for this to go live.
I have some feedback I've been meaning to post. It's about the word "League". I don't think it's a bad name by any means, but this could a a good way for Elements to be more unique.
We have a game that has Elementals, magic and all kinds of crazy things happening. League, to me, sounds a bit modern and "sport event like", and doesn't necessarily fit the Elements theme that well.
Currently there is The Arena that contains 4 different leagues. Why not replace those Silver, Bronze, Gold and Platinum by some random place names, like cities? This way it would be 4 Arenas in 4 different cities (or whatever). You could name the places so that the name suggest how high level the competition is, for example starting from "Rat Hole" and ending with "Divine Palace" (just examples :) ).
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Looks awesome Good works Zanz !
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Wow... Looks great :)
Just... When will it be finally up?
Nitpicking: Win and Lost games. (Won it should be) But you'd pick that up anyway
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Looks awesome. I cannot wait for this to go live.
I have some feedback I've been meaning to post. It's about the word "League". I don't think it's a bad name by any means, but this could a a good way for Elements to be more unique.
We have a game that has Elementals, magic and all kinds of crazy things happening. League, to me, sounds a bit modern and "sport event like", and doesn't necessarily fit the Elements theme that well.
Currently there is The Arena that contains 4 different leagues. Why not replace those Silver, Bronze, Gold and Platinum by some random place names, like cities? This way it would be 4 Arenas in 4 different cities (or whatever). You could name the places so that the name suggest how high level the competition is, for example starting from "Rat Hole" and ending with "Divine Palace" (just examples :) ).
Bronze: Training Grounds
Silver: Wrestling Pits
Gold: Gladiator Stage
Platinum: Champion's Arena
:)
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I don't know what the mark signs do in the league buttons. Especially, why the bronze one has :aether, while the rest has :entropy.
I agree with acsabi/sg those names are more 'inspired' than mere metal names.
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I don't know what the mark signs do in the league buttons. Especially, why the bronze one has :aether, while the rest has :entropy.
I agree with acsabi/sg those names are more 'inspired' than mere metal names.
The elemental symbols represent the mark of the deck, and said 'metal names' are very common for various events. Ever seen the Olympics?
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http://www.elementsthegame.com/beta.php (http://www.elementsthegame.com/beta.php)
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http://www.elementsthegame.com/beta.php (http://www.elementsthegame.com/beta.php)
Booooyaaaaaa :D
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http://www.elementsthegame.com/beta.php (http://www.elementsthegame.com/beta.php)
Let's do this. Arena time, baby. >:D
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http://www.elementsthegame.com/beta.php (http://www.elementsthegame.com/beta.php)
Woohoo :)
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120 :electrum for EM in the Bronze League :) It's like AI3 with a bite :P
TADAbow goes undefeated so far.
The rest seems like a fair and interesting challenge, gotta figure out a deck for them...
But moar playas should go for Gold League. Only 1 take on my deck so far.... :P
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Loved it. And the reward spin for rares is epic :D
But looks like Im not supposed to submit decks to any lower leagues. I used just 56 skill points, and it still said my deck was lv. 66 (my current level). Is that correct?
Also, I think there should be a minimum reward for each league, because bronze league rewarding less than AI3 is a shame.
By the way, now people are supposed to be able to play vs FGs before completing all quests? I think we could use another AI level, like having 2x mark, some upped cards... a new AI4 :D
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I just realized that zanz put FGs on the main row without taking them off the quests tab... :P
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I don't think you can submit for other leagues... Or I couldn't at least...
*needs to not farm too much*
Also you can play FGs from 2 places now. Will that be lost eventually and Quest turned into Upgrade? Or this is the intended version?
EDIT: ninja'd :-X
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The FG button is blanked out until you complete the quests.
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I hate to be the dick who says this, but isn't 'The Arena' too much like something from Tyrant?
Love the execution though, it's sexy. Modern yet authentic elementsy.
Trying my first deck. Oracle gave me skeleton, woop!
Playing around with a mono entropy for offense, SoGs, Nymphs, Demons and Dragons. Let's see now...
Edit: Now even regular deck making has the submit button as the finish deck thing. Slightly confusing, but this may be intentional.
Also, would be cool if after winning, we just went straight back to arena, to challenge again.
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oh hey, im automatically in the gold league. cool beans yo. level 44 in case anyone wants to know
p.s. i absolutely, positively, ultimatively, FIKIN LOVE IT!!!!!! (the arena that is)
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If you use the 'remove all' button, the first 5 cards you put into the deck become the Oracle card, but they take from the decklist pile of whatever card you click on. It's odd.
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If you use the 'remove all' button, the first 5 cards you put into the deck become the Oracle card, but they take from the decklist pile of whatever card you click on. It's odd.
yeah i noticed that too. it doesnt take that card from you permanently though, so its all good
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Its Awesome when an idea spawned starts to grow.
Thanks Zanz if you took my idea, Thanks Zanz if you didn't and the same thing came to you.
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ok, so i am rank 10... does that mean i am rank 10 in the gold league, or rank 10 overall? if its the latter... WOOOOO F***ING HOOOOO!!!!!! if its the prior... YAY!!
also, what does it mean when all of your dots are glowing yellow? it hasnt done anything special for me yet
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also, what does it mean when all of your dots are glowing yellow? it hasnt done anything special for me yet
I think those count the consecutive wins needed for a rare spin or something. Note that it is fewer the higher you go (in platinum it's only 3)
EDIT: Yes they do. After I filled those slots, I had an extra spin after my regular 3. There were only rare cards in there (unfortunately I didn't manage to win)
Maaan, this is sooo cash! :) I cannot wait to see it in regular :)
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Maybe rewards are a bit too high.
I just manage to beat a platinium one with 500hp.
Grants more than 1300 score and electrum. that's insane !
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Maybe rewards are a bit too high.
I just manage to beat a platinium one with 500hp.
Grants more than 1300 score and electrum. that's insane !
I think you deserve it....
More often than not platinum just stomps me.
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Wow, the arena is amazing. I'm impressed on how it turned out. Good Job on that.
Yet it lacks something.
I would like to see additions like for example, a replay feature where one is able to watch the matches people played against them at the next log-in. That would be spectacular.
Also, the rewards for each league should be balanced better, IMO.
EDIT: One more thing, being able to spontaneously try out your t500 deck to get the right amount of pillars etc.. would be a further fabulous feature. Or, at least being able to get the usual deck-code so that we can manually try it out...
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will the cards/electrum we won be saved in the "real" game ?
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will the cards/electrum we won be saved in the "real" game ?
I don't think so, as we're in Beta-testing and balancing phase.
EDIT : Sounds like I'm wrong...
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Okay TY I was wondering because accounts are linked ^^
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[23:39:37] zanzarino: Beta is back... if you feel brave you can test it. The chages ARE SAVED INTO YOUR REAL ACCOUNT
The changes are saved into real account.
The beta:
http://www.elementsthegame.com/beta.php
(See edit of zanz´s OP)
P.S.
I have copied parts of the chat discussions. Could add this later.
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Maybe rewards are a bit too high.
I just manage to beat a platinium one with 500hp.
Grants more than 1300 score and electrum. that's insane !
Maybe you're right... That's a new upped card!
Anyway, the Arena is amazing!
Just needs a little balance with the prizes...
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Can we play both with beta and normal play at once? I will try it, i expect do not get a ban.
I get a skeleton in the spins. :(
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frankly, i think Arena is overpowered, because i just got 430 electrum for beating youngsot in gold, without a mastery!
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Actually, I'd bet that has to do with the dynamic rewards zanz mentioned, maybe lots of people are playing other leagues. And besides, youngsot holds the number one position, so...
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In the "Your Deck" space, the button "Back" is showing "Submit". Typo?
Anyway, looks great! :D
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The deck I submitted yesterday to Platinum league has 15 victories and 8 losses. Gains are 120 electrum and -20 score?!? Lol, but when I clicked "Cash the electrum", I got the electrum, but not the score penalty. If it was positive, would I get the score?
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bronze league a bit broken? got em and it gave 160 :electrum
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The deck I submitted yesterday to Platinum league has 15 victories and 8 losses. Gains are 120 electrum and -20 score?!? Lol, but when I clicked "Cash the electrum", I got the electrum, but not the score penalty. If it was positive, would I get the score?
I think it's just the deck score in the league. Nothing to see with your own score.
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bronze league a bit broken? got em and it gave 160 :electrum
It largely depends on the League rank of the person you're playing -- higher-ranked decks give larger rewards. Bronze League decks in the middle of the pack give around 15 electrum for an EM.
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Well, looks like Oracle just gave skeleton to those that didnt use the oracle spin in beta. My deck from yesterday even hadnt Death quanta. Now I got Colossal Dragon, and can create a real deck :D
Just submitted my Gravity Earth duo, have fun ;)
Edit: it got its 1st victory already, so I clicked Cash the electrum to see if I would get a +4 score bonus. Didnt get it, so I assume Burne is right.
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When you get the "bonus spin" you can change the different slots a certain number of times to try and get a rare. (Just in case you hadn't noticed :) )
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When you get the "bonus spin" you can change the different slots a certain number of times to try and get a rare. (Just in case you hadn't noticed :) )
Yeah , Right now its too easy to get shards , Made 6 of each just today by fighting Bronze (except SoR).
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On my farm spree to get to level 67... can't wait til it pulls through. Also, when the Oracle gives the card, is it like when he gives a False God prediction when the card chosen from the roulette?
Woot I got it right :D
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Awesome! I'm seeing NPCs in the Arena!
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After some testing I think the top decks, at least in Platinum League, need much, much better rewards. If you were to take say the top 10 decks and give them even better rewards than they currently have (I know they already have better rewards) things might balance out. Currently the decks are harder to counter than most fgs, especially since you can't even predict what they will have. I say only the top 10 since this would prevent ridicule rewards from facing low ranked farms.
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After some testing I think the top decks, at least in Platinum League, need much, much better rewards. If you were to take say the top 10 decks and give them even better rewards than they currently have (I know they already have better rewards) things might balance out. Currently the decks are harder to counter than most fgs, especially since you can't even predict what they will have. I say only the top 10 since this would prevent ridicule rewards from facing low ranked farms.
Agreed. Facing Kirchj33's deck feels like being the poor AI3. I'm being farmed, and I pay 15 :electrum for that...
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I don't know what the mark signs do in the league buttons. Especially, why the bronze one has :aether, while the rest has :entropy.
I agree with acsabi/sg those names are more 'inspired' than mere metal names.
The elemental symbols represent the mark of the deck, and said 'metal names' are very common for various events. Ever seen the Olympics?
You talk like i'm not a human on Earth? On the other hands, 'elements' is not on Earth.
As you said, quite well, said 'metal names' are very common for various events (on earth).
This is why i said, they are not really inspired.
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currently i am 8/68 games using various fg grinders (gotp time, ccyb, retrovirus)
I think the rewards need to be much better or
we can use 10 mens suggestion of also getting your t500 stats when playing t500.
either way i think something needs to make it worthwhile otherwise no one will ever play platinum.
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An idea I had to possibly fix this: What if your level not only determined the deck you can submit but also your options when you go fight against the T500. So you might fight against triple mark decks but at least you have a triple mark of your own. This seems quite exciting as it would really add another dimension to PvE deckbuilding.
+1
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Yeah. That's actually something I'm worried about; that the higher Leagues (especially Platinum) are just too frustrating to play. I'm pretty sure that even with those 5 copies of a card requirement I could make decks that are just about unbeatable, and even highly unfavourable if you take a direct counter. Just think about a beefed up Rainbow that has a better quanta balance, Supernovas and some superior choices, like Pulverizer instead of Eagle's Eye. Doesn't really matter which five cards he has to feature, the rest of the deck will still be insane.
An idea I had to possibly fix this: What if your level not only determined the deck you can submit but also your options when you go fight against the T500. So you might fight against triple mark decks but at least you have a triple mark of your own. This seems quite exciting as it would really add another dimension to PvE deckbuilding.
I have to say, I completely agree on this: compared to FG's (which sound to me like the ultimate opponent) the different arena decks are just way to hard, even compared to their reward. I mean it is just not fun to play a mirror match but with your opponent having a double draw and 200 hp's.
10 men's solution sound quite reasonable. To be honest I thought is would be like that (being, you build a deck to submit for top500, and when fighting top500 you get to use that same deck, including its buffs, instead of the normal deck you are using)
Another way to fix this, or maybe both can be used at the same time, would be to use the same skill point costs, but only give 1 extra skill point for each two levels (or simply using 10 levels for each league), that way, even the people in higher leagues have to chose what they improve, instead of just improving everything.
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currently i am 8/68 games using various fg grinders (gotp time, ccyb, retrovirus)
I think the rewards need to be much better or
we can use 10 mens suggestion of also getting your t500 stats when playing t500.
either way i think something needs to make it worthwhile otherwise no one will ever play platinum.
We wouldn't necessarily have to get our full level's worth of stats when actively playing either. even if we got a smaller boost, say half our level of Skill points or something, it would probably be enough to make the platinum league viable. That would allow the higher leagues to still be more powerful and more difficult, so that a good deck submitted would still make money even with AI derpage.
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Even as we speak, Gold and Platinum's rewards go up and up, meaning that after the initial 'hype', fewer and fewer players play them.
(me included, I'm farming silver mostly. Leagues above silver get frurstrating very rapidly.)
BTW: A SoG version of RolHope works better than most FG decks in gold/platinum.
EDIT2:"you gained 828 :electrum." That's for beating youngsnot, no1. of the golden league. (note that it's not EM, an EM would be 1920 :electrum)
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I'd even go for having the same level restrictions as the league you're battling. So, if you wanted to fight against Bronze League decks your deck would have to be level 0-19. That way it'll also offer different strategies when you're actually playing your deck.
Also, I would really like to be able to submit decks to lower leagues.. Being stuck in the platinum league and only the platinum league, kinda makes me wish my score was lower.... :(
And, these leagues put a lot of emphasis on FG farming... since Upped cards > score. There are a lot of 15k-60k people with 1000 upped cards.
Winning an unupped Fahrenheit after beating 3 tough Platinum decks in a row..... not worth it....
Anyways, just some 1-day thoughts.
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Yeah, we really need upped card spins for the higher-level leagues, especially Platinum League.
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Im the only guy who find gold/plat very hard with a rush deck and plat very hard ?
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Im the only guy who find gold/plat very hard with a rush deck and plat very hard ?
They're very hard. That be all *drinks klatchian cofee*
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I'd even go for having the same level restrictions as the league you're battling. So, if you wanted to fight against Bronze League decks you deck would have to be level 0-19. That way it'll also off different strategies when you're actually playing your deck.
No.
Getting score for gold league is not difficult at all - getting the electrum to be able to compete is. I, for one, don't want to waste my electrum just so I have the upped cards to be able to win gold league consistently.
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For my part I find the area not worthy at all at this time and go back farming FG ^^
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For my part I find the area not worthy at all at this time and go back farming FG ^^
Actually, it's fun and shiny, but I see myself going back to ignoring it after a little while. Also, if I ever had to farm for rares - as in, new rares come out - I would just play Bronze with a super deck - dunno, vNG or something - so that I can reliably win 6 in a row. 3 in a row in Platinum is HARD.
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Atm I have managed to win 4 in a row in gold league but I won ONE match in plat.. Atm FG seems to be better in all point except if you manage to beat a top 10 with EM ^^ (impossible I think)
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I'd even go for having the same level restrictions as the league you're battling. So, if you wanted to fight against Bronze League decks you deck would have to be level 0-19. That way it'll also off different strategies when you're actually playing your deck.
No.
Getting score for gold league is not difficult at all - getting the electrum to be able to compete is. I, for one, don't want to waste my electrum just so I have the upped cards to be able to win gold league consistently.
I think you misinterpreted what I was stating. You would still have to the ability to play against any league you want. But when playing against a certain league, your deck would have to match that leagues level restrictions.
Also, I think what you said emphasizes the other point I was trying to bring out. There's a lot of people with a high score, but not very many upped cards. So, if you're stuck in Gold League because of your score.... you better be farming those FGs....
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you can click the blue arrows surrounding the spin when you get that "rare spin" thing when you have all yellow dots.
it allows that specific reel to spin again while the others stay the same. and you can click each multiple times (i think the limit is 3 though [for each reel])
i really like this feature. the arena makes getting rares more time consuming, but the special reel thing makes you get the chance of getting a rare much better. but overall, getting rares is harder now (you have to go through either 6 easy matches or 3 hard matches to get a good chance at it)
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Just one very minor gripe: is there a way to make it so that when you leave an Arena game, you go back to the Arena screen instead of ending up on the main screen again?
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Just one very minor gripe: is there a way to make it so that when you leave an Arena game, you go back to the Arena screen instead of ending up on the main screen again?
^ I agree
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Just one very minor gripe: is there a way to make it so that when you leave an Arena game, you go back to the Arena screen instead of ending up on the main screen again?
this. more often than not, I wanna play another match in the arena.
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Also note that after selecting which league you want to play against, when it shows who your opponent will be and their deck's stats, you can click "back to menu" without breaking your winning streak(you do still lose the 15 electrum it costs for the match). Not sure if this was intended or not but it at least gives you some chance to avoid an unfavorable matchup with your deck or if you decide they're either too hard(such as level 80 deck or if you've played their deck already that day and get the same opponent again) or too easy and thus the reward is too low to be worth playing against them.
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you can click the blue arrows surrounding the spin when you get that "rare spin" thing when you have all yellow dots.
it allows that specific reel to spin again while the others stay the same. and you can click each multiple times (i think the limit is 3 though [for each reel])
i really like this feature. the arena makes getting rares more time consuming, but the special reel thing makes you get the chance of getting a rare much better. but overall, getting rares is harder now (you have to go through either 6 easy matches or 3 hard matches to get a good chance at it)
The blue arrows are a bit camoflaged. Here is a picture so you are prepared and don't miss them:
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd204824/t500_bonus_spin.png)
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glitch:
i was in the arena and i stole an entropy shield (unupped) i stole it so i can survive the 2 extra turns i needed to win. it didnt work even though i had 48 entropy quanta
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Did you have a Sanctuary?
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Did you have a Sanctuary?
.................(http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq67/Jrdstammer/201492_tactical_facepalm_1_vw.jpg?t=1269692361)
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Looking like your avatar there.
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Suggestion: When EM, you get two yeller dot thingies.
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Okay, started playing with the t500 beta and I noticed a few things:
1) There's no real incentive to play against the platinum level decks. Sure you might win a nice chunk of change, but more likely you're just going to lose. Hard. These decks are FG buffed, plus they have shards. The best anti-FG decks can't simultaneously deal with 12 regens + antimatter + denial of any sort. That also has the unfortnuate side effect that those of us with platinum level scores can't really "earn" anything by making decks. No one plays against the class, then the decks don't get much play. D'oh.
2) I was confused by the random card choice. Really, I was confused by the whole layout. I think I'll figure most of it out soon enough, but maybe some labels/instructions would help. But most important, I didn't see where to randomly choose my deck card... so I have skeleton. After playing a bunch of decks, it looks like lots of people got skeleton. As though it were the default card before you get one at random... D'oh!
3) You can modify your deck after you submit it. Cool! Except you can't put in a code. Oh well. I hit "remove" and then I start putting in cards. Surprise! The random cards were removed, but each of my first 5 additions were rewritten as the random card (skeleton). And the selected card was taken from my library. Start over fixed this, but that seems like a confusing bug too.
4) I think this has real promise, but some issues need to be worked out. Like the unintendend penalty for having a high score. Oh, and speaking of score... no more score board?
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ok, to adress your worries:
1) just look at how many people HAVE actually played in the platinum level. ive faced decks that have been faced 60 times (admitedly, it had only 5 losses, but w/e). a lot of people do play them, just not noobs as they shouldnt face them. they should face bronze or silver.
2) go to the oracle to get the random card. it doesnt show up on the oracle's screen, but it will in the arena
3) im sure zanz did this to avoid people exploiting a glitch that he probably caught before releasing the beta. besides, it doesnt permanently change your cards, it only changes them for that deck. after that, its as if those cards never existed in your inventory
4)what penalty? im in the gold league, but i can still face bronze and such. theres nothing bad about having a high score other than having to click a little more when building your decks for the ai to use. and this is the new scoreboard.
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2) I was confused by the random card choice. Really, I was confused by the whole layout. I think I'll figure most of it out soon enough, but maybe some labels/instructions would help. But most important, I didn't see where to randomly choose my deck card... so I have skeleton. After playing a bunch of decks, it looks like lots of people got skeleton. As though it were the default card before you get one at random... D'oh!
3) You can modify your deck after you submit it. Cool! Except you can't put in a code. Oh well. I hit "remove" and then I start putting in cards. Surprise! The random cards were removed, but each of my first 5 additions were rewritten as the random card (skeleton). And the selected card was taken from my library. Start over fixed this, but that seems like a confusing bug too.
2) For the most part, the layout isn't too hard to figure out..might take a little while for some people and yeah, some instructions somewhere would be nice. As for the random cards, yes skeleton does seem to be the default. I believe you get the other cards through your daily oracle spin(had already done my oracle spin on the normal game before I found out about this and the fact that the 2 are linked...but won a nymph, so not so bad anyway :) )
3) Yeah, that definitely sounds like a bug and one which had been noticed by someone else before as well
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ok, to adress your worries:
1) just look at how many people HAVE actually played in the platinum level. ive faced decks that have been faced 60 times (admitedly, it had only 5 losses, but w/e). a lot of people do play them, just not noobs as they shouldnt face them. they should face bronze or silver.
2) go to the oracle to get the random card. it doesnt show up on the oracle's screen, but it will in the arena
3) im sure zanz did this to avoid people exploiting a glitch that he probably caught before releasing the beta. besides, it doesnt permanently change your cards, it only changes them for that deck. after that, its as if those cards never existed in your inventory
4)what penalty? im in the gold league, but i can still face bronze and such. theres nothing bad about having a high score other than having to click a little more when building your decks for the ai to use. and this is the new scoreboard.
1) Current stats only reflect the novelty factor. My concern is more long term. Also, the question isn't if people play against platinum, but if they do so on par with the other levels. I predict they won't.
4) The penalty is that your deck submitted to the arena wins electrum for winning. But only if people play against it. See (1).
2) Great. I'm sure that will become clear as I play, but it isn't clear on the face of the screen. That was my only point there. I trust in Zanz and his long term ability to make it great. I was only pointing out room for improvement.
3) I'm sure it's just a bug. One that Zanz will probably fix.
I'm not concerned that I won't figure out the nuances through trial and error; I would just prefer not to have to ferret out the nuances. I've been playing long enough to know that some nuances just have to be figured out the hard way, but that doesn't mean this will always be the case.
And yes, platinum decks CAN be beaten (I've beaten a few already). Just not very often. The rewards for my wins wern't even close to reasonable compared to the difficulty. It's like beating an FG, only you get half the coins and you might spin an un-upped oty. Oooooooo. Yeah, not worth it.
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So far RoL Hope seems to do well against platinum(even had a few 3 win streaks there) and CCYB is good up to at least gold...odds are pretty good that will change and people will put up decks to counter those soon but it will probably end up being a matter of playing a few games at the start of the day just to figure out what's out there and and current trends and then building a counter deck for it. And keep in mind it only costs 15 :electrum to play and you win ~160 :electrum on gold(even more for mastery or higher level decks plus any cards won), so even winning around 1 in 10 games will keep you slightly ahead
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Also note that after selecting which league you want to play against, when it shows who your opponent will be and their deck's stats, you can click "back to menu" without breaking your winning streak(you do still lose the 15 electrum it costs for the match). Not sure if this was intended or not but it at least gives you some chance to avoid an unfavorable matchup with your deck or if you decide they're either too hard(such as level 80 deck or if you've played their deck already that day and get the same opponent again) or too easy and thus the reward is too low to be worth playing against them.
I have realized that. It also count as a loss, but you still can return and get those golden dots :P
People, if Im correct, this beta was launched just yesterday. We already have some difficult decks, and a lot of people got skeleton as default card. Imagine when its up, and people starts to get better cards, like Supernovas, Steals, Nymphs, Hourglasses, etc? It will be much harder. I have noticed that my deck from yesterday had lost 1 HP today. Seriously, 1 HP? They should drop health faster, at least 10HP per day.
Looks like bronze league is there to be farmed because of rares and will get very low rewards. Silver will have a good variety of fun games. Gold and Platinum will be crazy hard and just to some people tired of normal FGs. Although, if their rewards increase a lot, people will lose 20 to win 1 and get 2k electrum. But what makes the rewards to increase? People starting fights in other leagues?
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i wonder what zanz is going to call those dots? my vote is on "rare charges" or "slot charges"
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....Although, if their rewards increase a lot, people will lose 20 to win 1 and get 2k electrum. But what makes the rewards to increase? People starting fights in other leagues?
Yes, kind of. If tons of people fight bronze league, the rewards for bronze go down, and the rewards for the other three leagues go up. If tons of people fight platinum, the rewards for it go down, and the rewards for other leagues go up, etc. So, in response to other people's comments about how the upper one or two leagues will not be fought as much...perhaps. But the longer they're left alone by the majority, the greater the rewards for those few who do fight them. And eventually, the rewards will get high enough that it's worth it to everyone.
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eventually, the rewards will get high enough that it's worth it to everyone.
Is there any kind of cap to the rewards or do they continue to go up ad infinitum if no one plays a particular league?
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eventually, the rewards will get high enough that it's worth it to everyone.
Is there any kind of cap to the rewards or do they continue to go up ad infinitum if no one plays a particular league?
Too soon for anyone other than Zanz to be able to answer that for sure, but there's almost certain to be an upper limit somewhere. Even as things are now, I spent most of the day farming gold and platinum and ended up gaining about 4000 score and being well ahead on electrum as well(not sure exactly how much since I upgraded a few cards to build my own deck). On the other hand, it may be worth noting that bronze is already down to 8 :electrum for a win, so even with a mastery every time you'd barely be breaking even(though of course you'll be winning a lot of cards from spins this way)
Currently the base rewards are at:
Bronze: 8 :electrum
Silver: 36 :electrum
Gold: 93 :electrum
Platinum: 148 :electrum
Base values I believe were 20,40,80,160 originally, so looks like only gold has actually gone up due to not being played as much so far(of course this could change a lot once the novelty factor wears off)
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The whole changing rewards thing adds a pretty interesting economic twist to the game if you ask me.
I'm a gold level player and yet I'm not interested in farming gold really because I don't like the win/loss ratio.
However, I haven't played it that much and don't really know if the rewards make the losses worthwhile for me.
The rewards being electrum and the potential fun of an interesting matchup.
The question then is why (for potential future fun?) and how badly we want to make money, and how this relates to the amount of fun we have while doing so. Everyone has a different point at which farming a particular league is worthwhile for them, and these points are still being determined because arena is so new.
However, if the community on the whole sets a league at a reward level (or deck difficulty level) that makes the league not worth playing, then it could ruin the experience for some people.
Anyway. Just a couple of thoughts there. Lots to think about.
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(http://i.imgur.com/3xeNX.jpg)
A snap shot of 24 hrs after the first oracle.
I know this is still in beta but I would love to see the stats of say the top3(10) in each league?
Also as a newer player with a decent score(?) but not many upped cards, I don't feel competative fighting gold/plat as I can hardly win and definately cannot EM them (which is needed to get a decent electrum reward imo)
As far as commenting on the beta status there seems to be some issues with modify deck and being able to add more ups than you spent lvl wise? If anyone could confirm this please.
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When you beat the first deck of the platinum league it is just yummy:
(http://i48.servimg.com/u/f48/10/08/58/46/kirchj12.jpg)
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For my part I DETEST the system where the most used league's reward decrease.. That is just a bad idea for me.
More over atm the rewards were 20-40-80-160
now they are 8-36-93-148
if you make the total you can see that : -20+8 -40+36 -80 +93 -160 +148 = -15
So globaly the rewards have decrease by 15 electrum in ONE day.
So in few weeks all the rewards must be at 0/1 electrum ? that is so bad for me and this must be changed. (maybe we can continue to upp the plat rewards if nobody plays it; this way if nobody try plat during a long time the rewards will be fairly intersting I think).
Atm gold is quite easy I think but not with a rushy deck. As a consequence games are loong ~10 minuts and that make the silver league by far more worthy (games are about 1 minuts with a good deck).
So that was my disapointments.
However this is really awesome : the game was going to be bored cuz I always faces the same opponents and now there are hundreds of news opponents with varied capacity (double draw, more Hp etc..) and their decks change each day ! that is really really good ! Awesome work Zanz ! Moreover i really like the design it looks like a futurist arena. The obligation of playing 5 cards choosen by the oracle is good too that makes us thinking to deckbuilding and not only copy paste a internet list
For my part I didn't found any bug in ~100 games. Gratz Zanz and thank you for what you do !
oh yeah i think that beeing able too see the top10 or top 3 in each league will be a quite good idea !
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I love this.
I get to play against decks with Anubis, my original favourite card. I don't think I had even seen one in PvP for a looong time, and definitely not 5. (Hi Shantu!)
And it was awesome.
But it can't really compete with decks who get cards like Immolation/Quantum Pillar/Supernova/Phoenix/ ect.
Meaning that in the end, a person who put a mega-super-Hey!OPPPP!-uggh-rainbow up one day, then the next day returns with a nice profit for absolutely nothing rolls the oracle and sees themselves winning...schoedingers cat (would be a fun deck to play against too...) might just choose to forget to update their deck.
Meaning in the long run, we get a lot of overpowered decks trolling around, and losing the variety which we love so much.
Overall, what I am suggesting is really some incentive to change decks. Maybe a 25 health loss every day, until it reaches 50 - or a small bonus for changing decks, I dunno. Plus, like the oracle, it will get people coming back to the game over and over again, which has to be pretty good from a developers point of view.
Again, great work, I love, just... me being a dick about things.
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In the interface of today's deck I saw I had 199 helath despite having changed deck / card. How come? Is it a glitch, a bug, interface fail or what?
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In the interface of today's deck I saw I had 199 helath despite having changed deck / card. How come? Is it a glitch, a bug, interface fail or what?
Decks lose hp every day in order to renew the league.
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In the interface of today's deck I saw I had 199 helath despite having changed deck / card. How come? Is it a glitch, a bug, interface fail or what?
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When you beat the first deck of the platinum league it is just yummy:
(http://i48.servimg.com/u/f48/10/08/58/46/kirchj12.jpg)
Imagine if you could EM that with 500 hp...
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On the other hand, it may be worth noting that bronze is already down to 8 :electrum for a win, so even with a mastery every time you'd barely be breaking even(though of course you'll be winning a lot of cards from spins this way)
Currently the base rewards are at:
Bronze: 8 :electrum
Silver: 36 :electrum
Gold: 93 :electrum
Platinum: 148 :electrum
Base values I believe were 20,40,80,160 originally, so looks like only gold has actually gone up due to not being played as much so far(of course this could change a lot once the novelty factor wears off)
Actually, that's the electron gain, not how much you get for winning. It's as if you're given the...."entry fee" back, and then given the reward. So you don't usually have to worry about breaking even.
For my part I DETEST the system where the most used league's reward decrease.. That is just a bad idea for me.
More over atm the rewards were 20-40-80-160
now they are 8-36-93-148
if you make the total you can see that : -20+8 -40+36 -80 +93 -160 +148 = -15
So globaly the rewards have decrease by 15 electrum in ONE day.
Actually, the above might explain this as well. Since the reward shows how much more you have after a fight, zanz may have subtracted fifteen from each to avoid confusion about the costs.
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is there a way i can fight against my own deck?
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is there a way i can fight against my own deck?
Yes. It's all random, so you may end up fighting yourself.
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I just fought myself this instant and lost... or won, depending on how you look at it :)
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I think it would be a good idea to call Halfbloods "Level 5" again, and Arena should be called "Arena (Level 4 )" to avoid confusion.
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I think it would be a good idea to call Halfbloods "Level 5" again, and Arena should be called "Arena (Level 4 )" to avoid confusion.
I like it better the way it is. By the way, there's Halfblood written right under Level 4...
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The incentive to change decks should really be increased. Even if it is more convenient not to change anything.
I got lucky and got :life pends yesterday. Today I see that my deck went 25 - 0 overnight. Am I going to change to Long Bow? Hardly... 199 HP is almost as it was yesterday.
HP really should decrease more drastically. 10-25 per day I think. Otherwise players (like me) will keep waiting for a good card before changing decks again.
On the other hand what if a player can't connect for several days? His deck will be screwed up and fall out of the league. That should be considered as well... 10 per day would be more reasonable still...
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I vote for 25 hp lost per day. If a player can't connect for more than a couple days he isn't playing the game...
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I vote for 25 hp lost per day. If a player can't connect for more than a couple days he isn't playing the game...
I know I won't be able to connect for the next 3-4 days. Does that mean I'm not playing the game?
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I vote for 25 hp lost per day. If a player can't connect for more than a couple days he isn't playing the game...
I know I won't be able to connect for the next 3-4 days. Does that mean I'm not playing the game?
In those 3-4 days? Yes it does. I meant that it should be possible for players that are away and do not actually play for a long while (3-4 days) to get electrum from their deck in the Arena.
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Just throwing ideas here - how about after spinning 2-3 oracle, the arena deck must be changed with the new oracle card or the deck will get bigger HP penalty (around 20 per day?). So, using the oracle spin is more tactical - you'll have the option to either get a chance winning a nymph or lose the advantage of your arena deck more rapidly. On the other hand, it might not be significant enough for someone who already have lots of nymphs or doesn't intend to collect nymphs.
And btw, is there a minimum cap of the HP? i.e. is it possible that an aged deck will have less than 100 HP? And what happens when it goes negative? i.e will it be dropped out of the league automatically or it is possible for someone to get an autowin vs this aged deck?
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Hmmmm... Kinda similar to 'Opponent not found' in T50.....
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd205179/blarg.png)
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After some testing I think the top decks, at least in Platinum League, need much, much better rewards. If you were to take say the top 10 decks and give them even better rewards than they currently have (I know they already have better rewards) things might balance out. Currently the decks are harder to counter than most fgs, especially since you can't even predict what they will have. I say only the top 10 since this would prevent ridicule rewards from facing low ranked farms.
Imo increasing rewards may not be good enough. Some opponents are virtually unconstrained and are a great deal harder than FGs. As others have noted, people will eventually stop playing Platinum which punishes Platinum level players. Intriguing idea: maybe Arena decks are limited to three copies per card.
Also I agree with some of the other comments that the Arena system should be better explained. I clicked past the rare slots without investigating the blue arrows four times, I think.
Lastly I posted a bug here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,28012.0.html).
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Imo increasing rewards may not be good enough. Some opponents are virtually unconstrained and are a great deal harder than FGs. As others have noted, people will eventually stop playing Platinum which punishes Platinum level players. Intriguing idea: maybe Arena decks are limited to three copies per card.
This could prevent Silence, Immo and Nova abuses, but also greatly hinders deckbuilding, screws Bronze leaguers and is generally unsatisfying. We need to come up with a better solution, as Platinum League as it is is kinda broken.
By the way, we're all too concerned with Platinum league being too much, but... Bronze league being smashed into oblivion by rare-grinders? I mean, if I was in Bronze league I wouldn't be surprised to see a record for my deck of 1-47937... which is not nice.
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What if the false god were able to abuse the unbalanced cards (IMO: SoG, Supernova, Black Hole)? Play Platinum league you will know.
Anyway I spend the day on the platinum league to build myself a platinum grinder (for today not more). I had a lot of fun.
My deck did 30|2 today in platinum and is in position 20. I just would like to see the reward for number one deck!
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I'm still for the idea that when you battle a in a league your deck has to meet the same point restrictions. So in order to fight in the Bronze League, your deck would have to use 0-19 points. You wouldn't have the same Oracle card restrictions, but you wouldn't overpower the Bronze League or get crushed by the Platinum League. I think something like this would make it more interesting.
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I'm still for the idea that when you battle a in a league your deck has to meet the same point restrictions. So in order to fight in the Bronze League, your deck would have to use 0-19 points. You wouldn't have the same Oracle card restrictions, but you wouldn't overpower the Bronze League or get crushed by the Platinum League. I think something like this would make it more interesting.
While we're restating points: I think that we should receive less than full skill points for our actively played decks. The passive decks have card restrictions and AI derp. They need an advantage if they're going to win enough to be worth submitting decks. We're aiming for a balance, and I'd worry that giving players the same benefits as the passive decks would swing the scale too far in the easy direction.
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Bronze League having low rewards is just fine; it basically plays the role of t50 only without farms OR upped cards -- you get your deck up to fighting par, and then you play AI3 for score and Bronze League for rares. That's cool. Having a deck submitted to the Bronze League means little; you get few wins, and you get a massive 1 :electrum per win, so it's more like a distraction than an investment.
Silver League is about perfect in terms of replacing the challenge level of the old t50. It's great fun for unupped players who have bested AI3 but aren't comfortable fighting AI4 just yet. Silver League decks still don't make all that much money for you, but they're much better than Bronze.
Gold League is about on par with FG farming. The decks often don't have all of the advantages of FGs, but tend to be built to win, with all of the cards they need to do it. The problem with that is that having a 97 :electrum payout and a rare spin every 4th win doesn't even start to compare with the relative predictibility and the UPPED CARD SPINS of FG farming. Meanwhile, having a decent deck in the Gold League is badass -- the payout is good and it gets played just often enough that if you build a winning deck, you get that payout often enough that you can upgrade a card every other day just from income from The Arena.
Platinum League is The Ultimate Challenge, and it roxxors. I love it to death. But no one wants to risk it when there's no upgraded card spins, with the result that even after 24 hours, my deck (currently in 5th place) made a whopping 328 :electrum. 41 wins, 6 losses. That's just sad.
The solution, to me, is obvious: allow limited upped spins in Gold League, and unlimited unupped spins in Platinum League. Heck, I still maintain that 1/2/3 upped spins in Silver/Gold/Platinum Leagues would be entirely appropriate and encourage an appropriate amount of participation in each League, without the idea of allowing the live player to use points and have skills like the AI players do.
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For my part as their are no upped cards to win in platinum I will not try it. FG are just by far better for their rewards and really easier too
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At this rate, zanz is probably just going to make FGs impossible to beat, just so people play platinum more :P
On a more serious note, PvP has never had the rewards of FG farming. PvP exists as a way to test your skills against other players, not as a farming tool. This is true in not just elements, but many MMORPGS in the past. To me, and apparently to zanz, since the arena is labeled "Asynchronous PvP," this is how the Arena should be treated. If this is the intention, then I would suggest (as several have before me) that a leaderboard be public, so that people can see where the top players stand.
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*snip*
The danger I see here is that if you allow players to win upped cards from other players in spins you run the risk of having some/all players simply turning the Arena into a new farming ground. Why have everyone build decks to win when instead everyone can build farm decks that people can spin up rare cards off of? The payout for being a winner in Arena is dwarfed by the benefit of being able to farm upped cards off of player farms. Just to start, players with a full set of upped cards have no incentive to get more money and win rather than put farms up for people. t50 wasn't originally intended to be a farmers paradise, but look what happened. Do you really think the Arena wouldn't quickly devolve into something similar once people realized they could farm dozens, maybe even a hundred and more upped cards per day there? It's already happening as I've run into several farms scattered from Silver through Platinum.
Switching gears, one frustrating part of Arena is that you lose the "fun" of being able to make new decks each day if you want to get a high score since making a new deck wipes the slate. What if there was a linkage between Oracle spins and Arena decks such that when you spin the Oracle your Arena deck is simultaneously reset. This way people can't just sit on the same card for a week or more while nobody else can catch them. Alternately, maybe a stat reset on Arena decks at the same time as the Oracle reset would work. Players would still get the penalties for not changing decks but the wins/loss and score would reset daily so players who build new decks have a chance to become the leader for that day.
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The danger I see here is that if you allow players to win upped cards from other players in spins you run the risk of having some/all players simply turning the Arena into a new farming ground. Why have everyone build decks to win when instead everyone can build farm decks that people can spin up rare cards off of? The payout for being a winner in Arena is dwarfed by the benefit of being able to farm upped cards off of player farms. Just to start, players with a full set of upped cards have no incentive to get more money and win rather than put farms up for people. t50 wasn't originally intended to be a farmers paradise, but look what happened. Do you really think the Arena wouldn't quickly devolve into something similar once people realized they could farm dozens, maybe even a hundred and more upped cards per day there?
Do you really think that when the Arena goes out of Beta and there really are 500 decks in Platinum League that enough of them will be farms to be worth trying to farm them? Also, you do realize that "the benefit of being able to farm upped cards" and "the benefit of winning money when your deck wins" aren't on the same scale, right? The latter benefits the deck poster; the former benefits the people who play against it.
No, I don't see Platinum League turning into a farm situation. At all.
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Actually posting a farm benefits both since the player posting the farm can go make a deck and play against their own farm to win upped cards. At least in t50 you had to play the same deck you are using. Now you can post a complete farm deck and go farm with a real deck.
And yes I do see it happening. t50 generally would have ~20% at most of players on it as a farm at any given time but it was still fairly profitable. Even if only 1 in every 10 players in t500 posted a farm deck chances are you'd still make more money per hour farming upped cards from there than you would fighting FGs. If that rate climbed up to around 20% like it was in t50 then it would make FG farming obsolete.
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Actually posting a farm benefits both since the player posting the farm can go make a deck and play against their own farm to win upped cards. At least in t50 you had to play the same deck you are using. Now you can post a complete farm deck and go farm with a real deck.
And yes I do see it happening. t50 generally would have ~20% at most of players on it as a farm at any given time but it was still fairly profitable. Even if only 1 in every 10 players in t500 posted a farm deck chances are you'd still make more money per hour farming upped cards from there than you would fighting FGs. If that rate climbed up to around 20% like it was in t50 then it would make FG farming obsolete.
ive been facing the gold for a while now and i have yet to encounter my deck at all. :\
lol, i love being on the scoreboards now, it makes me all giddy!
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It'll be tough to tell what the impact will truly be once the sample size jumps from ~100 --> 500.
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I simply don't see why anyone would post a farm deck to the League. You don't make any money, you don't any props for a badass deck, you have to play, on average, 500 games before you even have a 50% cumulative chance of seeing your own deck, and in all likelihood in the time it takes to play those 500 games, your deck will get pushed off the bottom of the rankings by new decks coming online.
People posted farms on t50 because there was no reason not to. That just isn't the case with The Arena. Even if you have a complete collection of cards (and very few of even the Platinum Leaguers do), you still want the score you get from having a successful Arena deck -- at least until you clear 100,000 points and you've effectively done everything you can do in the game. No one is there yet, so I just don't see what you're worried about as being a legitimate concern.
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I simply don't see why anyone would post a farm deck to the League. You don't make any money, you don't any props for a badass deck, you have to play, on average, 500 games before you even have a 50% cumulative chance of seeing your own deck, and in all likelihood in the time it takes to play those 500 games, your deck will get pushed off the bottom of the rankings by new decks coming online.
People posted farms on t50 because there was no reason not to. That just isn't the case with The Arena. Even if you have a complete collection of cards (and very few of even the Platinum Leaguers do), you still want the score you get from having a successful Arena deck -- at least until you clear 100,000 points and you've effectively done everything you can do in the game. No one is there yet, so I just don't see what you're worried about as being a legitimate concern.
1 million
but i am on essences side. if it ever becomes a problem then changes can happen but with actual benifits(electrum and score) incentive shoots way down.
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The incentive to change decks should really be increased. Even if it is more convenient not to change anything.
I got lucky and got :life pends yesterday. Today I see that my deck went 25 - 0 overnight. Am I going to change to Long Bow? Hardly... 199 HP is almost as it was yesterday.
HP really should decrease more drastically. 10-25 per day I think. Otherwise players (like me) will keep waiting for a good card before changing decks again.
On the other hand what if a player can't connect for several days? His deck will be screwed up and fall out of the league. That should be considered as well... 10 per day would be more reasonable still...
Why not make it so that if you spin the oracle it resets your deck? Simple solution.
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The arena is awesome!!! BUT i think that the platinum league is quite impossible and the reward is kinda low. I agree with Blupriest... spinning oracle should reset the arena deck. I'm guessing that only a few players log in every day so loosing 25hp is quite absurd. What do you guys think?
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Losing high ammounts of HP per day is bad, while reseting if you use the oracle is good? So, we are giving an advantage to those that dont login every day? In fact I think zanz even created the oracle, and recently improved it exactly to make people login everyday.
I think there should be a higher HP loss according to the league, like 10 HP / day in bronze, 15 in silver, 20 in gold and 20 (or even 25) in platinum, to a minimum of 50 HP. No need to reset deck if you use the oracle, this would already make the deck lose a lot after like 3 days, and drop, eventually being eliminated.
Also, I think there should be a wider reward scale. Bronze league games are fun, but having them at 8 electrum, less than AI 2, is pretty ridiculous. There should be a minimum limit. Im also up for upgraded spins, but to encourage people to really submit good decks, the rewards for deck wins should be bigger. Since yesterday, my deck got 33-8 record, so I got WOW 264 electrum. This is what? Like playing AI 3 using TADAbow for 10 minutes? Hmmm, in fact, less than that.
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The incentive to change decks should really be increased. Even if it is more convenient not to change anything.
I got lucky and got :life pends yesterday. Today I see that my deck went 25 - 0 overnight. Am I going to change to Long Bow? Hardly... 199 HP is almost as it was yesterday.
HP really should decrease more drastically. 10-25 per day I think. Otherwise players (like me) will keep waiting for a good card before changing decks again.
On the other hand what if a player can't connect for several days? His deck will be screwed up and fall out of the league. That should be considered as well... 10 per day would be more reasonable still...
Why not make it so that if you spin the oracle it resets your deck? Simple solution.
I like being able to choose to keep your current deck if you don't like the card given to you. If you have to make a deck with 5 Chimeras or Floodings then you'd rather keep your current since it wins more.
For people who don't have all cards another element is important for that: having the cards to build a deck around the card the oracle gives. I could easily imagine people in bronze league to not have all cards and only be capable of building a limited amount of decks.
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^^ this. Being forced to reset your deck is silly; that's what the HP loss is for. It's not like you won't have a huge variety of decks to play against once the Arena goes live and there are actually 500 decks involved.
As for putting a minimum on the :electrum award for Bronze League, that's just silly. Right now the difficulty of Bronze League is roughly between AI2 and AI3, and it offers rare spins every 6th win -- so having an :electrum award that's less than AI2 is perfectly reasonable. It's a free market; if the reward drops too low, people will stop playing it, and it will go back up.
The problem on the opposite end is that the Platinum League awards are probably currently artificially low because there are so many people playing it just to see what it's like. If it goes live and the reward shoots up to 1.1k :electrum per game over the first month or so, that'll be about right.
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What if older decks, besides losing hp each day, lose chances of being played against? It would require a modification in the system that selects an arena opponent, but it could be done, and it could ensure more people will rebuild their decks more frequently.
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I don't think that any changes need to be made to encourage people to rework their decks. But IF a change were to be made, it should be simple and easy, like having the HP loss of a deck be equal to the number of days old it is. For exampe, you lose 1 HP at reset if your deck is becoming 1 day old, 2 HP at reset if your deck is becoming 2 days old, etc.
That way, after 1 week, your deck has lost 7+6+5+4+3+2+1=28 HP. After two weeks, it's lost 105 HP. And so on. That would be easy to code, easy to calculate, and perfectly reasonable. It's not like we want to demand that decks be shuffled three times a week -- successful decks should be allowed to reign for a while. But every couple of weeks; that's quite reasonable, yes?
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I like the current exponential hp decrease. Well i heard decks lose 1,2,4,8... is this confirmed? Its sort of a compromise in that if you get a good card spin you can leave your deck up a few days, but beyond that your deck is going to get a lot weaker and after a week its gone anyways, so there will still be many different decks.
If a week is too long, i'd rather see a 1, 3, 9... than the -25 per day.
-10 per day would letting them stay longer than now isn't it?
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I heard it was an exponential decrease as well, but I thought it was 1-4-9-16 etc.
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I heard it was an exponential decrease as well, but I thought it was 1-4-9-16 etc.
I suppose i'm being rather pendantic, but 1 4 9 16 is quadratic decrease not exponential
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I heard it was an exponential decrease as well, but I thought it was 1-4-9-16 etc.
its not this, i saw one with 198 hp, so its 1-2-?-?-... to me so far
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Right now the aging effect is (-) 1,2,4,8,16,32,64 HP's. I might change it to 2,4,8,16,32,64, since -1 is actually not making much of a difference. I doubt any deck will survive 24h with -64HP without dropping out of the top 500, but, just in case, I'll add a limit at 1HP left. The idea is not to force players to change deck every day, but force them to change it at least twice a week.
I am currently working on fixing the updated cards bug and the "remove all" button bugs, I am adding all the due explanations about the golden rings, the special spin, the aging effects and all the common questions that I can find in the forum/chat. A patch for the beta will come soon.
Giving players level-based advantages in HP/mark/card drawing makes no sense to me; it pretty much eliminates the challenge: playing against a platinum deck with platinum privileges is like playing a level 2: you are against an AI (handicap), that is forced to have certain cards in the deck (handicap) and you eliminated the handicap on your side. If you think platinum is too hard and frustrating... well, do not click on it :) other people might enjoy the challenge even if it comes with a little bit of frustration and the feeling of playing against a "cheating opponent". Currently platinum is the most clicked, after bronze.
However, I am thinking about increasing the card limit to 35 when building an arena deck (as in 5 from the oracle, 30 from you), this should eliminate some of the most boring decks built around only 3 cards (plus quanta generators).
Some balancing might be done before (and after) the arena goes live but so far the dynamic rewards system seems to work quite well. I might have to increase the reward for winning a game with your arena deck, but we'll have to wait for the arena to go live for that. Right now a bronze deck is getting only 50/60 electrum per day because it gets 50/60 wins but who knows how many wins it will get when the arena is live.
Thank you for the feedback.
P.S. : I am also thinking about giving upped rares as a reward from special gold/platinum spins, since right now it feels like filling up those 3 rings for an upped rare is just not worth the challenge.
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Might want to add a maximum number of at least certain cards which can be in a deck as well..some cards like explosion, bh, silence, quicksand etc. seem to be just too powerful in a fully upped deck with 12 of them. Just finished a game I would have won except the AI used nightmare on me about 10 turns in a row
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I'm not going to get into debates about how to balance the system, and I haven't tried the beta, but I'd like to say a few things about the idea in general. (this became a rather long post, just skip to the last paragraph to see my main points if you don't give a crap about my experiences with Elements)
Firstly, I started playing elements in mid-march, so a bit over 3 months. (say roughly 100 days) My stats are 77764 score, 2393-1941 win/loss, (I was unemployed in march and april :p) 3080 electrum, and I own 414 rares and the complete set of unupgraded cards, except that I need one more druid staff. I have no idea if this is good or not, but I'm using it as a point of reference so people see where I'm coming from.
That score, if I remember from the list, is level 58, and the upper end of gold. I don't know what level zanzarino thinks an average person will get to after 3 months, but that's what I have. I suspect that due to having more time in march/april than some people, and having played CCGs almost as long as CCGs have existed (I started about 1995) that I learned Elements faster than most.
Now, when I started playing Elements, I thought it was great fun. I eagerly took on the simple n00b quests and I can remember trying to farm that first 500 score for the rare weapon :p Then I started taking on AI2, and eventually AI3. I tried moving on to higher levels, but then at that point I got a bit frustrated with losing to AI4/5/6 so much, so I sold everything but a 30 card monolife deck, (rares were worth like 150-250, seemed HUGE at the time!) upgraded as many cards as I could, and farmed AI3. At that point the game got a bit boring, but I slugged away at it, playing hundreds of 2-3 minute games and reinvesting in the life deck until I was wtfpwning AI3. Then I built scaredgirl's rainbow deck and started playing against AI5/6.
At that point, even AI5 was still a bit of a challenge, but it was exciting to play against multiple draws and triple marks, not to mention all of the upgraded cards. And you could actually WIN upgraded cards if you got lucky! I still remember winning my first upgraded card (it was a relic, oddly enough, given how rare it is to win a relic off a false god) and going HOLY F... I can sell this mofo for 1k+. Great fun! Eventually I progressed to building my own rainbow deck to farm false gods, and slowly improve my win rate. I invested in an upgraded cremation deck to farm t50 and I now have all the unupgraded rares except one druid staff, and in most cases 12 of each weapon. (not yet with 6 upgrades in all of them, though some I have that) t50 got pretty boring for me and I just don't have the motivation to get the rares left that I need; I'm content to pick them up off of false gods when they come, though at some point I'll have to get that last SoD.
Farming false gods was great when I started that, too. The decks seemed SO hard at first. (some still do :p damn you eternal phoenix) Some of them were pretty easy even then (hi neptune) but most were quite challenging. As I farmed more though, more and more of the false gods were easier, and the day finally came when I even beat Divine Glory. (the last one I hadn't beat) I still play against the FGs, because it's the hardest level, and have a lot of fun, and of course I'm still working towards owning a complete set of upgraded cards, Eventually, though, I'll have that, too. (probably not for a few more months yet... how many rares would a full set be, anyway? I'd guess 1200 or so, and then however many towers/pendulums constitutes a 'full set', so another few hundred cards)
In any event, farming false gods will at some point become less interesting. Why? Because I'll be winning too much. It won't be challenging. At this point, my win rate against FGs is about 50%. The best claimed win rate I've seen so far is for GotP Time at about 66% I think. Presumably, that means I should be able to achieve at least a 66% win rate, either by copying that deck or finding something equivalent or better, if it exists.
From what I've read about the platinum level of the Arena, it will be significantly harder than false gods. I'm assuming that most people in the platinum league will know how to build a good deck. If they just grinded score forever and don't know how to build a good deck, they probably won't submit a crappy deck because it would cost them electrum, so I'm assuming that all of the platinum decks will kick some serious ass. And now I finally get to the core of what I'm trying to say, which is that the Arena will add an even greater challenge, and something to work to beat. Will we lose a lot against platinum? Yeah, probably. Will we get better rewards than false gods? Maybe; I have no idea and actually don't even care that much if we do or not; I'll leave that for others to balance. The biggest thing that interests me about the platinum level is that it will probably kick the hell out of me. I like that. I like a challenge, and to a certain degree, we all do. I mean, does anybody take a fully upgraded deck against AI0? No, other than maybe once as a joke; nobody would seriously do that, because it would be no fun. Now, false gods will never be that easy for anybody, but at some point they will probably be easy enough to be uninteresting, once I can build any deck I want. Platinum level adds that new dimension, something EVEN HARDER than false gods to fight against. Even if there weren't any rewards for winning at all in the arena, it would still be fun as the ultimate test of deckbuilding/playing skills.
(well, the ultimate challenge unless zanzarino designs stronger false gods or adds another level of upgrading for 15k a card and makes 'true gods' with full doubly-upgraded decks or something :p)
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1st, I disagree that Bronze league is weaker than AI3. I think it could have a better reward, lets say, minimum 10. Anyway, not really important.
About that GREAT challenge... no one will fight AI0 with upped deck (no fun), but no one will fight AI6 with starter deck. Lose, lose, lose again is also not fun if you cant win some. I hope we can have a balanced Platinum league, but dunno:
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f44/Marvaddin/ShardsGoldLeague.png)
This was Gold League. Platinum could be worse. 1st, I think its necessary to forbid Shards. A lot of games in higher leagues are boring and you just win by deck out. Also, I think its necessary to forbid Quantum Tower. Anyone can create a default deck with QT, packing lots of Steals, Explosions, Black Holes, etc, etc, and just insert the Oracle cards. If we dont have some limits, I think its hard having decks really built considering Oracle card.
Also, I liked the increasing HP loss. Maybe some balance will do it better (because this way lower leagues are more affected), but the idea is good.
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I think the HP caps - and maybe the upped card caps - should be different between the leagues.
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do all of my deck changes (extra health, # of upgraded cards allowed, and cards drawn per turn) only work when im not playing?
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do all of my deck changes (extra health, # of upgraded cards allowed, and cards drawn per turn) only work when im not playing?
Yes, it's only for your deck in the arena matches.
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do all of my deck changes (extra health, # of upgraded cards allowed, and cards drawn per turn) only work when im not playing?
They apply to the deck you submit to the arena when other people play against it, whether or not you are playing at the time. They do not affect any deck you play with.
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I was wondering
About where should the win ratios be for which league?
I think my deck was around 35 wins to 8 losses in Gold league, about rank 15.
Silver and Bronze I would expect to be a lot worse, I farm them without much trouble. Gold I haven't tried and Platinum I don't expect to have many losses.
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Looks like Elements got nuked by a spike in usage.
Anyways, I sort of like it. disregard i suck cocks?
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Giving players level-based advantages in HP/mark/card drawing makes no sense to me; it pretty much eliminates the challenge: playing against a platinum deck with platinum privileges is like playing a level 2: you are against an AI (handicap), that is forced to have certain cards in the deck (handicap) and you eliminated the handicap on your side. If you think platinum is too hard and frustrating... well, do not click on it :) other people might enjoy the challenge even if it comes with a little bit of frustration and the feeling of playing against a "cheating opponent". Currently platinum is the most clicked, after bronze.
However, I am thinking about increasing the card limit to 35 when building an arena deck (as in 5 from the oracle, 30 from you), this should eliminate some of the most boring decks built around only 3 cards (plus quanta generators).
Anybody can still play a rainbow, regardless of the card they get lol
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Anybody can still play a rainbow, regardless of the card they get lol
A rainbow with 6 Fractals seems... unwieldy.
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Anybody can still play a rainbow, regardless of the card they get lol
A rainbow with 6 Fractals seems... unwieldy.
You'd be surprised...
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With a triple Aether Mark, a rainbow could easily have 6 fractals, with some fine-tuning.
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(http://i.imgur.com/SXHCU.jpg)
First is 24 hrs after first oracle in beta.
70w - 6l = 836 Electrum @ 76 games ~ 12 per win
Second is 48 hrs after first oracle in beta.
45w - 1l = 844 Electrum @ 46 games ~ 19 per win
No electrum has been cashed so that is the total for 48 hrs.
I thought the hp would degenerate faster, so I will keep it for a bit to test how the hp drops.
Feature I would like to see stats from top decks in each league ;)
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Just and idea, and maybe this would be hard to make happen, but I would LOVE to be able to play as the deck I submit to league.
You could have some people waiting to play games vs people who want to play bronze/silver/gold/platinum, and then part of the deal when you enter league is that you don't know whether you're facing AI or a real opponent it would be could.
Ya, it would slow down people trying to farm, but whatever.
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Just and idea, and maybe this would be hard to make happen, but I would LOVE to be able to play as the deck I submit to league.
You could have some people waiting to play games vs people who want to play bronze/silver/gold/platinum, and then part of the deal when you enter league is that you don't know whether you're facing AI or a real opponent it would be could.
Ya, it would slow down people trying to farm, but whatever.
Its insane the rise of the troubles from the guy who is farming. You can win some decks only because the retarded AI.
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+1 for adding a ranking list of each league, so it's easier to compare your deck standing against others.
Besides that, if we'll be playing against Platinum League for the challenge as much as for the reward, it would also be nice if we could have a "league killer ladder", listing the top 50 players daily, weekly and all time W-L stats against decks in a certaing league. Would that be too hard? At the very least, it would be great for bragging rights. :)
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Why not make it so that if you spin the oracle it resets your deck? Simple solution.
This might promote players not visiting the Oracle.
But I like the idea of your deck resetting either when you revisit the Oracle or 24 hours, whichever comes first. This would benefit people who play every day without really punishing those who don't. It'd create extra motivation to log on every day and it'd create greater variety in decks seen.
However, I am thinking about increasing the card limit to 35 when building an arena deck (as in 5 from the oracle, 30 from you), this should eliminate some of the most boring decks built around only 3 cards (plus quanta generators).
I agree that something needs to be done to weaken decks, specifically Platinum. I played a game where I was given one pillar in my opening hand and was literally never able to play it. "If you think platinum is too hard and frustrating... well, do not click on it" isn't a good solution. I recognize that more people are playing Platinum than Gold now, but if enough players take your advice players with Platinum decks will be punished because they won't get as many hits as a Gold league player.
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I had a post about my thoughts on Platinum earlier, but I edited it away because I thought I was confused about something.
Platinum is dumb. It is nigh-impossible without luck or a perfect deck counter to win against a moderately good Platinum deck. Platinum decks are like False Gods, except the decks are actually good. The fact that you can add a ton of Shards of Gratitude and Divinity without noticeably slowing down your deck (thanks to double draws) alone makes it a headache.
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As it is Platinum needs to be reworked. Its pointless to play it.
I currently find bronze and silver the most entertaining as in winnable to get the amount of wins needed with some ease within reason. Bronze and silver i grade like the AI3 and old t50 with the occasional power brick deck.
Gold is a challenge but in the same was as Halfbloods its not worth it in any way when you have FGs. Fon for a while and for a rare now and then but generally no.
The luck/bad luck factor basically ensure a loss in all leagues but bronze silver so they are pointless to farm when you have other options.
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As it is Platinum needs to be reworked. Its pointless to play it.
I currently find bronze and silver the most entertaining as in winnable to get the amount of wins needed with some ease within reason. Bronze and silver i grade like the AI3 and old t50 with the occasional power brick deck.
Gold is a challenge but in the same was as Halfbloods its not worth it in any way when you have FGs. Fon for a while and for a rare now and then but generally no.
The luck/bad luck factor basically ensure a loss in all leagues but bronze silver so they are pointless to farm when you have other options.
I'll just copy all of those main points without rephrasing them. that's exactly what I'm feeling. Both the good, the bad and the ugly (/Platinum ^^)
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Perhaps one incentive for playing in Platinum could be increased rewards for decks that do well (not necessarily the best) in Platinum, and decreased penalties to decks that lose. That way, players have a reason to try to strike down other Platinum decks, with the profit from having your deck in Platinum outweighing (to some degree) the electrum you lose.
Of course, this doesn't quite address the fact that Platinum decks are stupidly good, but it's something, I guess.
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As it is Platinum needs to be reworked. Its pointless to play it.
The luck/bad luck factor basically ensure a loss in all leagues but bronze silver so they are pointless to farm when you have other options.
I've gained about 15k score and at least that much electrum since the beta was released, nearly all of that from farming Platinum with some gold and occasional matches against silver and bronze, so...it's not THAT bad to say the least :). Most of those wins came with either CCYB or RoL Hope, so probably many of the top FG decks will do well there also. You do have to prepared to accept that you will lose a LOT but the few wins you do get will more than make up for it. Even with about a 10% win rate, you can still come out ahead.
I do agree that certain cards will need to be banned/restricted/nerfed/modified somehow to keep them from being abused. 12 steals or explosions + fully upped deck means most of your permanents are gone the second they hit the board and 12 silences can easily mean you never get to play anything in the first place. So there certainly are some balance issues that need to be addressed but...I wouldn't go so far as saying the whole thing is pointless. What might also help would be is if people start posting a few of the top decks they run into and any effective counters to that deck that they find. This would at least mean it won't be the same decks constantly dominating and will force people on both sides to constantly change strategies.
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The reward for platinum just needs to be higher. If the rewards are good enough, smart folk around here will find decks that get a decenty win rate eventually.
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I'm really liking the Arena. It suits my style of play very well. I like the unpredictability of PVP decks but dislike synchronous, real time, "face to face" PVP. This has the best of both. I was starting to get bored playing False Gods, but now I have a whole new set of goals to achieve!
Thanks,
LSK Piano
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Something Im thinking about. If someone goes back to menu after looking at your deck, that person receive a loss, but does your deck receive a win? Earlier today I submited a deck with Hope as base card, and triple Aether mark that can scare a lot of people, lol. Like 10 hours later, just 8 games played, thats strange. Dunno about it, but should of course count as a victory to the deck if people refuse to play vs it.
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The reward for platinum just needs to be higher. If the rewards are good enough, smart folk around here will find decks that get a decenty win rate eventually.
I don't know about this. The reason that people farm FGs and not Half-Bloods is the massively higher chance of getting an upgraded card. The chance of winning an upgraded card in Platinum, without simplistic decks like Decay and Eternal Phoenix, with rainbows all over the place, and with many decks not even completely upgraded, means you'll need the raw electrum reward to be huge (not to mention disproportionate to the amount of electrum you lose from losing).
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Something Im thinking about. If someone goes back to menu after looking at your deck, that person receive a loss, but does your deck receive a win? Earlier today I submited a deck with Hope as base card, and triple Aether mark that can scare a lot of people, lol. Like 10 hours later, just 8 games played, thats strange. Dunno about it, but should of course count as a victory to the deck if people refuse to play vs it.
I was wondering that as well. I'll usually play just about any deck at least once(though if I'm one win away from the bonus rare spin, I get a bit more selective ;) ) but if I come across a deck again that I know I have almost no chance with, I'll probably just skip it. CCYB doesn't have much chance against kirch's deck for example so unless I get an almost perfect draw and it gets nothing, it's just a waste of time.
Even if this isn't a factor though in the win-loss records of decks, it seems like there may be some need for change in how it selects which deck you face as some decks seem to come up WAY more often than others. My first deck only got about 7 games all day. The deck's ranking seems to be a big factor in this with the top decks getting far more games than lower ranking ones(biggest problem with this is if low-mid ranked decks don't get many games, they never have a chance to move up the rankings in the first place). Even my current deck though which has been somewhere in the 16-20 ranked range for the last couple days seems to go several hours at times with no games at all. Some of this may change once the beta is over and more people are playing when it's officially released, but I think this needs to be looked at.
As for whether a deck should earn points if someone skips playing against it and just goes back to the menu, that could be a tough one to answer. You could argue this means the person figures they don't have a chance of winning and are conceding defeat, thus the deck should earn the points for a win. On the other hand, if you do that then once a deck reaches a certain point, it could easily start getting most of its wins that way rahter than actually beating people and thus making its win record even more intimidating for people, causing even more to just quit against it and so on. This would make it hard to tell how good decks actually ARE.
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I don't know about this. The reason that people farm FGs and not Half-Bloods is the massively higher chance of getting an upgraded card. The chance of winning an upgraded card in Platinum, without simplistic decks like Decay and Eternal Phoenix, with rainbows all over the place, and with many decks not even completely upgraded, means you'll need the raw electrum reward to be huge (not to mention disproportionate to the amount of electrum you lose from losing).
There is no chance to win an upped card at all in Arena. On the other hand, with all decks containing at least 5 copies of at least one card(and very likely several copies of 1-2 other cards to combo with that) you do have a fairly good chance to win cards from the spins, including rares. That's not even counting the bonus spin where all you will get are rares...Ive probably won as many rares from normal spins as I have from the bonus ones though.
For platinum, the electrum reward ranges from 10 times the cost of playing for lower ranked decks, all the way up to 200 times that for an EM against the number 1 ranked deck, so I would say that part is unlikely to be increased much more(the dynamic reward system should take care of that if needed anyway, though we will have to wait and see how this works out when this moves out of beta). If this is still not enough, than I'd say simply raising the amount of electrum given out isn't the answer. Rather the reward will need to be something that can ONLY be obtained by playing arena such as new rares or even something like a spin with 5% chance to win a nymph if you can get a 10 game win streak on platinum(note that even with a 50% win rate, this would be a 1 in 1024 chance, so it would be rare enough that I'd say something like this would be balanced enough) Other than this, balance changes to prevent some of the most powerful cards from being abused would a good idea but keep in mind that platinum, especially the top ranked decks there, should be a challenge for even the best players, for whom fg's have gotten boring. Most of these players will probably already have 12 of all existing rares and a decent amount of electrum, so just throwing a bit more money into the reward doesn't seem like too much of a solution there.
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So it is impossible to win upgraded cards from spins in the arena? also, what is the bonus spin everyone is talking about, and how do you get it?
sorry for my ignorance.
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So it is impossible to win upgraded cards from spins in the arena? also, what is the bonus spin everyone is talking about, and how do you get it?
sorry for my ignorance.
Yes, you can only win unupped cards, including normal rares(not ultra-rares like nymphs). The bonus spin is obtained by getting a long enough winning streak(3 games in platinum, 4 in gold, 5 in silver, 6 in bronze). You get one initial spin and then can spin each reel individually, up to 3 times each. Only rare cards are possible on these spins so you have a fairly high chance of winning one.
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So it is impossible to win upgraded cards from spins in the arena? also, what is the bonus spin everyone is talking about, and how do you get it?
sorry for my ignorance.
Yes, you can only win unupped cards, including normal rares(not ultra-rares like nymphs). The bonus spin is obtained by getting a long enough winning streak(3 games in platinum, 4 in gold, 5 in silver, 6 in bronze). You get one initial spin and then can spin each reel individually, up to 3 times each. Only rare cards are possible on these spins so you have a fairly high chance of winning one.
oh ok. i was wondering what those circles were... lol thanks for the help :)
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New patch added:
Fixed a few bugs (thank you for the reports)
Added a few in-game explanations
Raised minimum deck size for arena to 35 cards
Gold and Platinum special spins are now giving upped rares
For the next patch:
A few cards might create exploits or obnoxious mechanics with the double draw/deck. I am against banning those cards from Arena decks, but I can modify the Arena AI adding some "guilt" when chaining more than 3 silences etc. What cards do you think should get a special AI treatment?
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New patch added:
Fixed a few bugs (thank you for the reports)
Added a few in-game explanations
Raised minimum deck size for arena to 35 cards
Gold and Platinum special spins are now giving upped rares
For the next patch:
A few cards might create exploits or obnoxious mechanics with the double draw/deck. I am against banning those cards from Arena decks, but I can modify the Arena AI adding some "guilt" when chaining more than 3 silences etc. What cards do you think should get a special AI treatment?
Silence
Nightmare
Earthquake
Black Hole
Stone Skin
Shard of Divinity
Fire bolt/lance
In about that order.
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Dim Shield
Flying Eternities
Wings Chaining
Just possiblities...
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Dim Shield
Flying Eternities
Wings Chaining
Just possiblities...
Dim shield and wings are not played in either the same or consecutive turns like say silence or stone skin.
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I'd like to see SoG receive special treatment, but I don't believe it could be fixed the same way as others listed already.
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New patch added:
Fixed a few bugs (thank you for the reports)
Added a few in-game explanations
Raised minimum deck size for arena to 35 cards
Gold and Platinum special spins are now giving upped rares
For the next patch:
A few cards might create exploits or obnoxious mechanics with the double draw/deck. I am against banning those cards from Arena decks, but I can modify the Arena AI adding some "guilt" when chaining more than 3 silences etc. What cards do you think should get a special AI treatment?
Very nice :)
And yeah, no need to ban them altogether..at most either nerf them or restrict max number in a deck. The "guilt" system could work as well though.
As for which cards:
Silence and Black Hole are probably top of the list here..both are ok if you at least have some chance to play cards in between(especially dropping a sanctuary) but if it chains them 10 turns in a row to start the game, there's nothing you can do
Poison
Explosion, Steal, and Earthquake
Nightmare
Basically denial in general seems to be the biggest issue. Some more counters for poison might be good as well(or just go back to having upped version of purify cost 0 to play)
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Silence must die.
Just ban the thing from Arena.
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Wow, so it's hard to know what it will develop into, but gold league with upped rare spins seems incredibly lucrative, and first impression seems to be that it puts FG farming to shame in terms of easy electrum earning.
Otoh, it's quite possible that gold will get harder once the arena has matured a bit, so it may yet turn out to be a good balance.
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Hey Just to make you remember : you need 4 win IN A ROW to have A CHANCE to win an upped rare card.. FG can give upped cards anytime.
I think it is balanced atm.
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nother thing might be good change is how level is done i cant get exactly how till know how it works but from what im being told it seems not to be would like it cleared up please befor i make a coment on how thing it be better on changing and such thanks
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nother thing might be good change is how level is done i cant get exactly how till know how it works but from what im being told it seems not to be would like it cleared up please befor i make a coment on how thing it be better on changing and such thanks
Speaking of clearing things up, try some punctuation.
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To me, the bigger problem is still the abuse of Quantum Towers and Shards. I really think those should be banned.
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I think banning quantum towers is a bit of a stretch.
I agree with shards, silence and maybe BH.
Also, 35 cards is going to change bronze, silver and gold quite a bit.
I think they will probably be considerably weaker.
Will make for some interesting deckbuilding challenges though so I'm looking forward to it.
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nother thing might be good change is how level is done i cant get exactly how till know how it works but from what im being told it seems not to be would like it cleared up please befor i make a coment on how thing it be better on changing and such thanks
Are you related to DevilLoss?
Suggestion:
After a battle in the arena, next to the button "menu" I would love to see a button "arena". It would save a click and a screen loading per battle.
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Yeah the 35 cards restriction is quite a good idea but now I'm little scary and I think that most of the deck will be big stall with 12 SoG..
I totally agree with Sno : create a button which allow you to back directly in the arena instead of going at the main menu after every game.
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(http://i.imgur.com/slhrJ.jpg)
Day 1
win 70 - 6 loss = 836 Electrum @ 76 games ~ 12 per win
Day 2
win 45 - 1 loss = 844 Electrum @ 46 games ~ 19 per win
Day 3
win 22 - 1 loss = 440 Electrum @ 23 games ~ 19 per win
With more decks submitted I think that it will take ~4 days to make 1500 for one upgrade now in gold league.
Also with the new degeneration decks should be able to hand in at most a week (2/4/8/16/32/64/128)
# of upped cards bug still seems to be in affect with this last patch.
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BIG GLITCH:
I made my arena deck (with no upgrades) and posted it.
Then I went to change my deck to my false god farmer (shakars revenge) When I tried to put in upped pendulums, it said:
"You can not have more upgraded cards in this arena deck"
This needs fixing.
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~4 Days if you spin lava golem...
Income will largly depend on oracle rng.
Curious to see what the play counts are going to be once this leaves Beta.
Right now it seems like the hype is wearing off a bit.
I am also experiencing the bug Djhopper mentioned.
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I don' t know if somebody mentioned it earlier, but I would love to play against the deck i submit in the arena (with no reward / score loss of course).
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just play the league were you are you are almost sure you will find you.
Or If you don't wantto waste all this time go in trainer and choose your deck as opponent..
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My friend was playing in the arena and minutes after he submitted a deck, his eternity disappeared and he lost 1000 elecrtrum.
Any explanation for this?
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My friend was playing in the arena and minutes after he submitted a deck, his eternity disappeared and he lost 1000 elecrtrum.
Any explanation for this?
:o
SUCH IS LIFE IN THE ARENA
IT'S ALL OR NOTHING
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BIG GLITCH:
I made my arena deck (with no upgrades) and posted it.
Then I went to change my deck to my false god farmer (shakars revenge) When I tried to put in upped pendulums, it said:
"You can not have more upgraded cards in this arena deck"
This needs fixing.
This glitch only happens if you click "remove all" then try to add upped cards... weird.
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New patch added:
Fixed a few bugs (thank you for the reports)
Added a few in-game explanations
Raised minimum deck size for arena to 35 cards
Gold and Platinum special spins are now giving upped rares
For the next patch:
A few cards might create exploits or obnoxious mechanics with the double draw/deck. I am against banning those cards from Arena decks, but I can modify the Arena AI adding some "guilt" when chaining more than 3 silences etc. What cards do you think should get a special AI treatment?
Silence- Yes. Cards that can chain so you don't do anything at all the whole game is evil.
Nightmare- Probably. Hecate has 6, but has 66 cards.
EQ- Maybe. Seism has 12 copies, but he has 92 cards instead of 70 (minimum deck size for Arena).
BH- Maybe. Dark Matter has 12 copies plus 4 Gravity Nymphs, but he has 94 cards.
FB- Probably not. AI doesn't play it well. Also, Hermes has 12, but he has 116 cards.
Explosion/Steal- Maybe. Again Hermes has 12, but it's mixed in 116 cards. Rainbow has 14, but he has 120 cards (albeit with Hourglasses). Eternal Phoenix has 8 in 60 cards.
SoD/SoG- Probably. Having so much potential life gain is just crazy. Pair this with most any strategy and you got an über-strong deck.
Any Shields- No. Dim Shields and Wings chaining are okay to me. There's enough ways around it (alt damage like poison or bolt, PC, and Momentum).
What if instead of changing the way the AI plays these cards, we put a scaling cap on the number of copies of these cards depending on deck size? It could be something simple like 1 copy of a card for every 10 cards in a deck. So a deck could only have 8 Silences in a deck with 80 cards. As you can see above, a lot of the FGs have the maximum copies of these cards, but because their decks are bigger, it's not as bad as in the Arena.
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Hecate has one Nightmare in her deck.
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Hecate has one Nightmare in her deck.
So, the wiki (http://elementscommunity.org/wiki/pve/false-god/hecate/) is accurate and not teffy's list (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,7919.msg96638#msg96638)? Guess that's what happens when you're out of the loop too long. : /
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I don´t regularly check wikis, to see, if there are some secret changes in decks.
And this change isn´t listed in Patch Notes.
If this happens, and you see that, please reply in my thread. If 2 Nightmare is right (and 4 Eclipse), then I´m going to change this.
@zanz
Can you write it in Patch Notes, if FG decks change ?
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nother thing might be good change is how level is done i cant get exactly how till know how it works but from what im being told it seems not to be would like it cleared up please befor i make a coment on how thing it be better on changing and such thanks
Are you related to DevilLoss?
All kill you!!!! O.O
anyways i also agree with the thing about chaining but with increasing minimium deck size and also maybe decreasing the number of said card in the deck or even the number it can play ina row. like only letting nightmare be played twice in a row then being able to get like 2-3 turns of no nightmares then the ai is able to play nightmare again?
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I love the Arena :)
But I really really want to see a Top 10 of each League. It'd be great if I could see who's in front of me and not just the number 1 deck. Currently 6th in Gold with a crappy build and lucky Oracle :P
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A top 10 (or even top50!) list would be nice:
Place/Score/Player Score/Win/Loss
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Awesome! Uploaded my first deck:
Dead-card -> skeleton :))
But ... I understand the Oracle provides the 5 copies of the chosen card?
When I invested points in upgraded cards in deck, the deckbuilder automatically
upped 4/5 skeletons even though I don't have any upped skellies.
Also, is there no way to also up the 5th one?
Last but not least:
If I can upload one deck every day (week?) ... what happens to my old decks if
they still are in the T500? Where can I cash their electrum?
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I don´t regularly check wikis, to see, if there are some secret changes in decks.
And this change isn´t listed in Patch Notes.
If this happens, and you see that, please reply in my thread. If 2 Nightmare is right (and 4 Eclipse), then I´m going to change this.
@zanz
Can you write it in Patch Notes, if FG decks change ?
That was never a change, zanz just gave out wrong decklists. The ones in the wiki are correct.
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Awesome! Uploaded my first deck:
Dead-card -> skeleton :))
But ... I understand the Oracle provides the 5 copies of the chosen card?
When I invested points in upgraded cards in deck, the deckbuilder automatically
upped 4/5 skeletons even though I don't have any upped skellies.
Also, no way to also up the 5th one?
Hmm.. so.. I'm not understanding this skeleton thing quite well.. I scrolled this thread and didn't find any post explaining it.
Could someone clarify things to me? I have 5 skellies, 4 upped, just like Jangoo.. and I can't take them out or anything.. why?
And.. other question: we submit our decks so people can fight them in the arena. Do we control these decks in any situation? I mean, the "powered up" deck, with the double draw stuff and all.
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Awesome! Uploaded my first deck:
Dead-card -> skeleton :))
But ... I understand the Oracle provides the 5 copies of the chosen card?
When I invested points in upgraded cards in deck, the deckbuilder automatically
upped 4/5 skeletons even though I don't have any upped skellies.
Also, no way to also up the 5th one?
Hmm.. so.. I'm not understanding this skeleton thing quite well.. I scrolled this thread and didn't find any post explaining it.
Could someone clarify things to me? I have 5 skellies, 4 upped, just like Jangoo.. and I can't take them out or anything.. why?
And.. other question: we submit our decks so people can fight them in the arena. Do we control these decks in any situation? I mean, the "powered up" deck, with the double draw stuff and all.
That card is the card the Oracle gives to you, since you didn't spin the Oracle in beta yet the card is a skeleton by default. You get 5 copies of that oracle card to make a deck with and the number of them that are upgraded are equal to the amount of points you spent on allowing your deck to contain upgrades (so allowing 60 upgrades = 5 upgraded oracle cards). You do not need to own these Oracle cards to put them in your deck, unlike the rest of the deck.
Once your deck is submitted it will be the ai that tries to play it vs other players. Your only "control" is to modify the deck later on if it's unsuccessful or something.
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A top 10 (or even top50!) list would be nice:
Place/Score/Player Score/Win/Loss
I believe zanz said yesterday in chat that he was considering this but was concerned about the server receiving a high volume of queries.
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That card is the card the Oracle gives to you, since you didn't spin the Oracle in beta yet the card is a skeleton by default. You get 5 copies of that oracle card to make a deck with and the number of them that are upgraded are equal to the amount of points you spent on allowing your deck to contain upgrades (so allowing 60 upgrades = 5 upgraded oracle cards). You do not need to own these Oracle cards to put them in your deck, unlike the rest of the deck.
Once your deck is submitted it will be the ai that tries to play it vs other players. Your only "control" is to modify the deck later on if it's unsuccessful or something.
Ooh, thanks a lot, well explained.
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One way to cripple Platinum decks would be to force 6 copies of the special card, but that's a tiny change.
A scaling cap to the number of cards you can have in a deck is too restrictive. Something like diminishing returns for healing (first SoG heals 5, second heals 4, etc) along with the "guilt" system for permanents and spells this doesn't apply to could work.
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Today, I got a different card from the Oracle (Life Pendulum). However, when I tried to change my arena deck so it would have the new card from the Oracle in it, I couldn't remove the card I got from the Oracle yesterday (Anubis). I don't know if this is where I'm supposed to report bugs, but could someone please try to fix it?
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Today, I got a different card from the Oracle (Life Pendulum). However, when I tried to change my arena deck so it would have the new card from the Oracle in it, I couldn't remove the card I got from the Oracle yesterday (Anubis). I don't know if this is where I'm supposed to report bugs, but could someone please try to fix it?
Did you select "Build a new deck" rather than "Modify deck"? Otherwise it's not a bug at all.
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*facepalm* no, I didn't. lol
EDIT: It won't let me click on build a new deck. there's also no card showing up in the circle where the card that the oracle gave me is supposed to be. Basically, it's acting like I didn't go to the oracle yet, but I did...
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1. Maybe in main menu players should see next opponent, not 1st Player in league? What is the sense to see who is 1st and which card he won in Oracle?
2. Decks with 12 Phase Shields, 12 Rewinds and others aren't so good idea... 12 Phase Shields means 36 turns without damage, when I haven't got PC (a lot of elements hasn't got any PC). Phase Shield decks should be beatenable also when opponent hasn't got PC... (in PVP it is possible, because 6 Phase means 18 turns).
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1. Maybe in main menu players should see next opponent, not 1st Player in league?
Would be too easy if you know who's coming next. After playing a deck once, you could just load a counter to each one before playing it
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1. Maybe in main menu players should see next opponent, not 1st Player in league?
Would be too easy if you know who's coming next. After playing a deck once, you could just load a counter to each one before playing it
Agreed.
1. Maybe in main menu players should see next opponent, not 1st Player in league? What is the sense to see who is 1st and which card he won in Oracle?
Maybe if you are trying to take over 1st place you want to build a counter to hand the leader some loss.
2. Decks with 12 Phase Shields, 12 Rewinds and others aren't so good idea... 12 Phase Shields means 36 turns without damage, when I haven't got PC (a lot of elements hasn't got any PC). Phase Shield decks should be beatenable also when opponent hasn't got PC... (in PVP it is possible, because 6 Phase means 18 turns).
I haven't played much in arena, but with all the SoGs and sanctuaries and hourglasses i expect to see, some repeatable PC is probably advisable anyhow so i'm not too concerned with phase shields
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Seeing only ONE card make game too easier? ;)
3. System of rank is very... stupid. Player with stats 84-44 has got the same rank as I with stats 33-3... He won 65% games, I 92%...
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Today, I got a different card from the Oracle (Life Pendulum). However, when I tried to change my arena deck so it would have the new card from the Oracle in it, I couldn't remove the card I got from the Oracle yesterday (Anubis). I don't know if this is where I'm supposed to report bugs, but could someone please try to fix it?
Did you select "Build a new deck" rather than "Modify deck"? Otherwise it's not a bug at all.
So, each player may only have one deck up at a time?
Thx for answering the other question earlier. :)
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Seeing only ONE card make game too easier? ;)
Seeing the name of the player using it does...especially for repeat matches against the same deck. Once you've played them once, you'll know exactly what they have. And to some extent yes, even seeing just one card CAN help a lot. At the very least it gives some ides what elements they are playing and if that card is part of a combo, it may be a very big hint to what their whole deck is. If I see an Unstable gas as their oracle card, I'd certainly pack some mirror shields. If I see momentum, I'd want lobotomizers and probably some purifies too as that could work nicely in a poison deck,
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I just faced a timebow with 12 sacts and 12 SoG and a few feral bonds. I had a pulvy out early to midgame killing something every turn and then flew it and played another. spamming 2 pulvies for 8 turns and outdamaging a few miracles. Luckily i won by deckout. but the healing is ridiculous.
6 feral bonds 12 SoG 12 Sancs. 4 pulvies and 4 miracles. The only way to beat that is by luck or a 200 point firebolt kill.
Also i heard that Zanz was worried about the servers with a top 10 list. what if it only updated every 10-20 minutes or so. so the updating isnt overloading the server?
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3. System of rank is very... stupid. Player with stats 84-44 has got the same rank as I with stats 33-3... He won 65% games, I 92%...
Not knowing quite how rank works, I still mostly agree, but there is something to be said for longevity. There is hp loss over time and more counters to a particular deck will tend to appear over time.
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Seeing only ONE card make game too easier? ;)
Seeing the name of the player using it does...especially for repeat matches against the same deck. Once you've played them once, you'll know exactly what they have. And to some extent yes, even seeing just one card CAN help a lot. At the very least it gives some ides what elements they are playing and if that card is part of a combo, it may be a very big hint to what their whole deck is. If I see an Unstable gas as their oracle card, I'd certainly pack some mirror shields. If I see momentum, I'd want lobotomizers and probably some purifies too as that could work nicely in a poison deck,
All is OK, but in Arena Menu when You will see ONLY main card (not Player nick) You won't know which player will be next :) The same card has got a lot of players.
But ok, it isn't very important ;) I want to make something different than this which we see today, because for me it is unuseful information who is first ;)
Bigger problems are with (bugged?) rank system.
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So, each player may only have one deck up at a time?
Yes, setting up a new deck deletes the old one, the decay it has gotten and it's current record.
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6 feral bonds 12 SoG 12 Sancs. 4 pulvies and 4 miracles. The only way to beat that is by luck or a 200 point firebolt kill.
Ohai! May I introduce you to Veen's Vicious Viotech? Is good. 8)
[edit]Also, how the hell are you people getting like 60+ games vs. your decks? I've had a Supernova deck up for 36 hours now and I've only gotten 25 games played against it total. Is that the difference between Gold and Platinum, or am I just getting amazingly unlucky with people RNGing up my deck?[/edit]
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6 feral bonds 12 SoG 12 Sancs. 4 pulvies and 4 miracles. The only way to beat that is by luck or a 200 point firebolt kill.
Ohai! May I introduce you to Veen's Vicious Viotech? Is good. 8)
[edit]Also, how the hell are you people getting like 60+ games vs. your decks? I've had a Supernova deck up for 36 hours now and I've only gotten 25 games played against it total. Is that the difference between Gold and Platinum, or am I just getting amazingly unlucky with people RNGing up my deck?[/edit]
I think the higher your rank, the more games you get.
I started around 48th but got 2 games in 24 hours. i randomly got a few games that won shooting me up to 20th and then games just started rolling in till i got to 14th or so. and now i have ~100 games.
Kirch and QT are probably both around 200 by now. they were at 150 the last i checked a day ago
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Well that doesn't seem right. The chance of getting any given deck is dependent on their winrate? That seems like a surefire way to make sure that the winning decks stay the winning decks, even if newer decks are technically outperforming them on a win/loss ration basis.
The deck selection shouldn't be weighted, it should be random.
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Well that doesn't seem right. The chance of getting any given deck is dependent on their winrate? That seems like a surefire way to make sure that the winning decks stay the winning decks, even if newer decks are technically outperforming them on a win/loss ration basis.
Unless people can (and do) construct effective counters to the higher ranked decks (perhaps unlikely in current system) to bring their ranks down with the increased playrate.
The deck selection shouldn't be weighted, it should be random.
I agree.
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It's depressing because it means that if you don't get straight wins right off the bat, you're always better off switching decks ASAP, even if you just drew a Nova (lots of powerful options) and then you spin something lame like a Ulitharid (not so much). A few unlucky games up front totally kills the profit potential of your deck.
It definitely needs to be randomized rather than weighted.
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One of the major goals of the arena system is to cut back on the farm potential of T50. Hence a deck that can't win gets played less and less.
One possible tweak to the system would be to measure degrees of success, so that a deck that dies one turn before it manages to win would not be penalized as heavy as a farm deck that goes out without dealing a single point of damage.
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In my opinion, this arena can be great, but has many problems that should be dealt with. My deck has been submitted for 24 hours and has not been in a duel 1 time, whereas other people's decks have dueled multiple times in 10 minutes! there should be a more even way of deciding opponents rather than just a randomizer or whatever is being used now so that the same deck won't come up more than once unless all other decks have already dueled once.
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I feel like I should point out that one of the major problems in equality among Platinum decks is that not that many people are playing against them, so there's bound to be disparity between decks.
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I also would like being able to check the full league ranking, even if it reset just once a day.
About the decks that dont get enough games (my Hope deck from yesterday got 12 games during all day), I really suspect they dont get victories if people skip playing them. If its true, this is like a curse. Your deck is not played, unless by people that think have conditions to beat it (and in fact some do). Your deck doesnt rise in the league ranking. The hard decks in top positions will be there for a lot of time (until, in fact the HP loss have some strong effect in win rate), because their reward is big, so people will play (and lose). If giving the win to the deck when people skip will create a deck "reputation" that makes more people skip, lol, I think its a minor problem. In fact, could even not chance the win stat (or add another stat, like "fold" or something), but it should at least receive score and money for the skips. The way it is, you have 3 wins in gold league, need 1 more to rare spin. You get a opponent with Steal as base card and triple Aether mark. Will you play, if you dont have Sanctuaries in your deck? You get a strong card from Oracle, people will avoid your deck.
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One of the major goals of the arena system is to cut back on the farm potential of T50. Hence a deck that can't win gets played less and less.
One possible tweak to the system would be to measure degrees of success, so that a deck that dies one turn before it manages to win would not be penalized as heavy as a farm deck that goes out without dealing a single point of damage.
I think that goal will be accomplished even if opponents are randomized. One, there is incentive to put up a nonfarm in arena since you get income from it unlike how it is/was in t50. And two, when 1.28 goes live, there will be many more arena decks so farms will drop out of the top 500 rather quickly.
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I'm loving the new arena, I found a potential problem though. When the game shows you your opponent, you can back out before the game starts and still keep your killstreak alive. For example, I have two rings filled for platinum and I see that my next opponent is the #1 ranked deck, so I back out, click platinum again and get a deck with equal wins and losses. I beat that deck and get my fancy extra spin. It seems like a big incentive to hunt for weaker decks and avoid strong ones when the penalty is only 15e per skip and the reward is an upped rare.
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I'm loving the new arena, I found a potential problem though. When the game shows you your opponent, you can back out before the game starts and still keep your killstreak alive. For example, I have two rings filled for platinum and I see that my next opponent is the #1 ranked deck, so I back out, click platinum again and get a deck with equal wins and losses. I beat that deck and get my fancy extra spin. It seems like a big incentive to hunt for weaker decks and avoid strong ones when the penalty is only 15e per skip and the reward is an upped rare.
That's likely a bug and should be fixed; autoquits should break winning streaks and result in a win for the Arena deck.
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My friend was playing in the arena and minutes after he submitted a deck, his eternity disappeared and he lost 1000 elecrtrum.
Any explanation for this?
:o
SUCH IS LIFE IN THE ARENA
IT'S ALL OR NOTHING
Crap. I put my six titans in my deck... =\
And I don't know how to take my deck out of the arena!!
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My friend was playing in the arena and minutes after he submitted a deck, his eternity disappeared and he lost 1000 elecrtrum.
Any explanation for this?
:o
SUCH IS LIFE IN THE ARENA
IT'S ALL OR NOTHING
Crap. I put my six titans in my deck... =\
And I don't know how to take my deck out of the arena!!
You can't take away your spot, but to change your t500 deck go to arena and at the bottom left it says "Modify deck"
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My friend was playing in the arena and minutes after he submitted a deck, his eternity disappeared and he lost 1000 elecrtrum.
Any explanation for this?
:o
SUCH IS LIFE IN THE ARENA
IT'S ALL OR NOTHING
Crap. I put my six titans in my deck... =\
And I don't know how to take my deck out of the arena!!
You should still be able to use your cards that are in arena deck normally. And you dont need take the deck out. In some days, its HP will drop, and it will be eliminated.
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I still say we should have a sideboard and be able to get triple the rewards if we win 2/3 times vs. a platinum deck.
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I still say we should have a sideboard and be able to get triple the rewards if we win 2/3 times vs. a platinum deck.
I'm not entirely certain what you said in the last part of your post, but something like doubling the reward of each consecutive win in Platinum would be cool.
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My friend was playing in the arena and minutes after he submitted a deck, his eternity disappeared and he lost 1000 elecrtrum.
Any explanation for this?
:o
SUCH IS LIFE IN THE ARENA
IT'S ALL OR NOTHING
Crap. I put my six titans in my deck... =\
And I don't know how to take my deck out of the arena!!
You should still be able to use your cards that are in arena deck normally. And you dont need take the deck out. In some days, its HP will drop, and it will be eliminated.
Wait ... so the cards are ACTUALLY in the deck and thus not available for regular play? (pvp, FGs, Ai3)
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No, the cards are avaliable for regular play. This is what I was saying to Leo, he doesnt need to worry about putting his Titans in deck, he still can use them.
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Another patch:
- Fixed the bug that didn't allow adding upped cards to the regular deck
- Added a button to test your own Arena deck
- When the AI is drawing 2 cards per turn it will refrain from chaining more than two of the following:
Silence
Nightmare
Earthquake
Black Hole
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So, I can still queue dodge with no penalty? Cool. (http://Well, not really "queue", but whatever)
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Another patch:
- Fixed the bug that didn't allow adding upped cards to the regular deck
- Added a button to test your own Arena deck
- When the AI is drawing 2 cards per turn it will refrain from chaining more than two of the following:
Silence
Nightmare
Earthquake
Black Hole
Great thing to be able to test own Arena deck!
I think chaining those cards wasn't the real root of this problem. I think it was more due to the fact that there was 12 of those in a double-sized deck, so could that thing be changed somehow? For example using Dexterity Skill that doubles card drawing and deck size would also forbid you to use more than 3 or 4 same cards (doubled to 6 or 8 ) in your Arena deck.
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OK, this is ridiculous. 5 games in 12 hours, all wins, and I'm still Rank 60 and going nowhere fast. The whole score-equals-more-plays thing just snowballs WAAY too fast.
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The deck selection shouldn't be weighted, it should be random.
I agree.
Concerning the interface:
- I would love a button back to the arena (in addition to the back to menu)
- The button quest should not lead to the division FG/Upgrade any more but directly to the upgrade page. FG are already accessible from the main screen.
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Why does my deck hp seem to be capped at 199 ??? I changed my deck today and it won't let me go full 200
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To marvaddin : if I'm facing the N°1 in plat league I'll just try to face him, even if this wil be hard the rewards is crazy !
to patchx : I'm okay with that it is to frustrating to loose after2 wins in plats. I think that the rewards shuld increase when you chain wins. Moreover thsi perfectly fits with arena context (more win = more rewards), I talk about plat but we can do this in gold too and even maybe in silver or bronze. For me the rewards are always low in platinum league :
Just compare to FG :
FG : 200 HP *3 marks double draw full upped, win =100 electrum and spins are all upped. difficulty : medium
Plat : 200 HP *3 marks double draw full upped or almost, win = 130 electrum (~) spins are ALL unupped. after 3 wins in a row you're almost sure to win an upped rare : difficulty : hard,very hard or impossible (depending the opponent).
Thoughts ?
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Okay this is tide annoying i just played my deck on bronze and i beat it not even trying its in no way using cards in the right order there needs be way of having the ai play the cards how the decks ment to be. Main reason its cheating the player out of better rank and money its hard enough if you don't , have good cards but ai not useing the decks right is even worse.
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Okay this is tide annoying i just played my deck on bronze and i beat it not even trying its in no way using cards in the right order there needs be way of having the ai play the cards how the decks ment to be. Main reason its cheating the player out of better rank and money its hard enough if you don't , have good cards but ai not useing the decks right is even worse.
Well, that's why being able to play against your own deck will come in handy, you can see where the AI is making mistakes and try to fix them by changing the cards. It would be nice to get the AI to play exactly how you want it, but that's easier said than done. There are so many possible permutations of cards to be played that the interface for tweaking the AI to play how you want would be a horrendous thing to behold.
Minor bug: after I tested my own deck and beat it, the spin screen told me I'd won 125 electrum. That didn't seem right, so I tried it again and memorized how much $ I had. I won and got the message of winning 125 e again, but it didn't actually change the amount in my 'bank.'
Obviously the message is the bug, I'm not complaining that I don't get money for beating up on myself.
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Yeah it is like when you play an arranged pvp match you can read that you won electrum but in fact it just show your last win screen.
Hence I assume you EM'd an FG and got 2 identic cards in the first reels before testing your deck ;)
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To marvaddin : if I'm facing the N°1 in plat league I'll just try to face him, even if this wil be hard the rewards is crazy !
to patchx : I'm okay with that it is to frustrating to loose after2 wins in plats. I think that the rewards shuld increase when you chain wins. Moreover thsi perfectly fits with arena context (more win = more rewards), I talk about plat but we can do this in gold too and even maybe in silver or bronze. For me the rewards are always low in platinum league :
Just compare to FG :
FG : 200 HP *3 marks double draw full upped, win =100 electrum and spins are all upped. difficulty : medium
Plat : 200 HP *3 marks double draw full upped or almost, win = 130 electrum (~) spins are ALL unupped. after 3 wins in a row you're almost sure to win an upped rare : difficulty : hard,very hard or impossible (depending the opponent).
Thoughts ?
Right.
Recent FG-decks get a near 50% consistent win-rate
with a cardwin rate > 33% (it seems to be more like 45% actually)
and about 3min per match
-> One card in 6 matches = ~20min
In Plat-Arena you never know what you gonna get or if your deck can deal with it.
If you play really well and make it though every other win-streak, you will end up
about the same as FG-farming.
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Why does the deck hp atrophy? I mean, I know Zanz coded it that way - but why? If the goal of the arena is to get people to post interesting decks, why penalize the good ones that folks would want to leave up longer? Why not just put a 7 day expiration on all decks, sort of like how the old T50 reset every weekend. Do we need to weaken the decks artificially? Doesn't that just weaken the arena as a whole? I think if the goal is to get a variety of decks out there - just let them be out there! and then expire them after a couple days (somewhere around 5 to 7 seems good).
Also, the ranking system seems broken. It should be a function of wins, losses, times played, and age (to reflect opportunities to be played, e.g., total number of plays since posted). What's the current formula? Does it do this?
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I'm not sure if the decks selection is weighted: I'm rank 10 in Platinum, W/L is 74/10, and my age is 3. Also, Electrum earned is 496.
NOT WORTH IT.
Really, I put my effort into making a deck, leave it up for 3 full days, it's in the top 10 of the freaking PLATINUM ARENA aaaand... I get less than 500 electrum. Geez, it's like fifteen minutes farming? LESS! -.-
No, seriously. Platinum is borked. It's definitely a bad system, we have shitloads of reasons for that. This could be a really intresting new part of the game, but it's completely ruined by its execution.
1) Elimination of T50 has effectively killed farms. Thus, rares are really rare again. Big plus. Now, in order to get rares, you shall farm Bronze League with a good and very stable (because some of the decks are evil even there) AI3 Farmer - everybody has one of those upped, practically - for some hours. You get one spin every six games (maybe on average it's more like 1/7 due to some rare losses), and every spin has a slight chance to give you the rare you want. To get 12 rares you will probably have to get about 150 spins, for a total of about (rough estimate) 1000 games against Bronze.
Consequence: Bronze League will be played a lot when new rares are released and will be stomped hard. The amount of games we will have on Bronze League those days is more than is normally good for every League. Will any other League be played for rare farming? Hardly: Bronze is very likely the best one.
2) Dynamic rewards will cause other Leagues' reward to go up. Fantastic! So other Leagues' rewards will be worth it... when Bronze is being pummeled to the ground due to new rares. Of course, this will only be for a while, as total rewards will increase in time to discourage an ever-increasing amount of money being generated. This means that after a while the rewards will go back to a "Not Worth It" state. probably very fast due to how good FG farmers gain 4000 :electrum every hour!
Consequence: Leagues will be played at least for a while after new rares come out.
3) Platinum decks are terribly tough. Win rate is low. Rewards are low. An FG farmer, even a bad one, nets about 3000 :electrum every hour. An AI3 farmer - even unupped - nets at least 1000 :electrum per hour, a good one will net a lot more. Platinum League decks will net about one spin with a CHANCE for an upgraded card every... say... 50 games (probably more). I farmed for about 7 hours and got two spins. Base rewards will net about 200 :electrum every game - if the rewards are good, some games net about 70 :electrum which just sucks. Gold is kinda more balanced, but due to not having upped cards as reward it cannot be compared to good FG farmers. Silver nets a low amount of money. Bronze sucks. I foresee an average electrum gain that is MUCH worse than any other AI level, possibly even worse than HALF-BLOODS.
Consequence: Leagues will not be played enough in any other case.
4) I got less than 500 :electrum for a top level Platinum deck. People these days actually PLAY Arena matches due to testing what is new. When people go back to normal farming, rewards will become even more crappy. Very much likely, in a while, it will not even be worth the effort of putting up a good deck. What will be worth it, though, will be putting up a crappy deck, since in the time it goes down in ranking it will reward those playing it a lot.
Consequence: Higher Leagues will, in time, become a crap-fest. 500 players in Platinum means that if 90% of people put up a crappy deck every day, you will have a good place to farm for rares / score / electrum... as in T50. No reason to put up a good deck -> farms.
Now, what should be done to avoid this scenario:
1) Increase score reward for higher Leagues. Add a (GOOD) score bonus for every bonus spin, based on League. Since you gain 35 score for every minute of AI3 farming, I think a bonus score of 35 / 105 / 315 / 945 will be good enough, but I would like to see the opinion of good farmers - like, say, 10 men or willng3 - on this. That way you will have Arena as the "ultimate challenge", not for money but for score, and it WILL be played. Bronze for rares, Platinum for score.
2) Increase electrum gained for decks in the leagues. You don't really care if low-score people gain more electrum due to this, since this will keep them in the game more (I remember the hard times I spent trying to match AI3 back in the days... having a nice profit every day from my work - there's Oracle too now, but you don't really work for that so it's not as satisfying - would have been nice indeed: the money to invest trying to balance my Nova/Rustler/FFQ deck), and small amounts of money don't mean much to higher League players (I frankly don't care if I get 500 electrum for free, and even 1500 is pretty low for three days in Platinum; heck, most players in Platinum will probably have all cards upped!). So increasing electrum gain is not bad from any point of view, and will instead be a reason to put up a good deck and compete - rather than decaying into a farm-fest. I think good rewards could be 5 :electrum per win in Bronze, 15 :electrum per win in Silver, 45 :electrum per win in Gold and 135 :electrum per win in Platinum.
With the above balancing I think Arena will be played a lot, and will stay fresh and intresting, fulfilling its full potential.
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Really, I put my effort into making a deck, leave it up for 3 full days, it's in the top 10 of the freaking PLATINUM ARENA aaaand... I get less than 500 electrum. Geez, it's like fifteen minutes farming? LESS! -.-
Mormegil you do know that this version isn't live on Kongregate or Main Site so there wouldn't be alot of players playing in arena to give your deck more coins.
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Good point. It's probably smartest to wait with balancing until we're hit by the full force of the big userbase.
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Really, I put my effort into making a deck, leave it up for 3 full days, it's in the top 10 of the freaking PLATINUM ARENA aaaand... I get less than 500 electrum. Geez, it's like fifteen minutes farming? LESS! -.-
Mormegil you do know that this version isn't live on Kongregate or Main Site so there wouldn't be alot of players playing in arena to give your deck more coins.
Well, this is true. But, see through the rest of the post, as I have other feedback. As long as we hit a good balance on rewards for having a deck up and score rewards for playing the Arena, I think it's fine.
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Why does the deck hp atrophy? I mean, I know Zanz coded it that way - but why? If the goal of the arena is to get people to post interesting decks, why penalize the good ones that folks would want to leave up longer? Why not just put a 7 day expiration on all decks, sort of like how the old T50 reset every weekend. Do we need to weaken the decks artificially? Doesn't that just weaken the arena as a whole? I think if the goal is to get a variety of decks out there - just let them be out there! and then expire them after a couple days (somewhere around 5 to 7 seems good).
The HP decay is pretty negligible for the first several days. A deck's lifespan is realistically going to be around 4-5 days anyhow, around the lower limit of your proposed hard expiration date--that's when the HP loss catches up, as before then it's pretty negligible. A deck with 192 HP is going to be marginally weaker than one with 196 or 198 HP, but realistically the HP difference is not going to matter often enough to really be worth caring about. The sliding HP scale just gives you a softer time limit to work with; you're encouraged to refresh your deck every 3 days, to keep new cards rotating in from the Oracle instead of the same decks getting used perpetually, but you get the option to let it linger in a weaker form instead. If the HP loss hurts hard enough to matter, the deck will gradually lose rank and get played less and less anyhow.
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I'm confused.
I've created a deck in the arena section of the beta version of the game but when I try to play, it enters me into games with my regular deck, not my arena one. My life and such are also at the normal level, despite having upped them during deck creation.
Am I meant to have to win a few games before I can use my arena deck or is this a bug?
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I'm confused.
I've created a deck in the arena section of the beta version of the game but when I try to play, it enters me into games with my regular deck, not my arena one. My life and such are also at the normal level, despite having upped them during deck creation.
Am I meant to have to win a few games before I can use my arena deck or is this a bug?
The Arena deck is the deck you're setting up for other people to play against. You use your own normal deck to play against other peoples' Arena decks.
Notice how there is a sword icon next to the "pick a League to challenge" area and a shield icon next to the "Change your Arena deck" area? You attack with your normal deck, and defend with your Arena deck.
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One other thing that maybe should be fixes is it seems like the Oracle is giving the same card to a lot of people each day. Today I got dissipation shield and from chat, it sounds like a lot of others did as well and even more people got other types of shields in the last 2 days(I also got Hope the day before). If the idea of the oracle card is to force a variety of different decks, then it would be good to make sure the card selection is more random(and yes, I know several people I talked to getting the same or similar cards COULD happen even if it is truly random, but seems at least somewhat unlikely for that). If the oracle card is truly supposed to be completely random, than given this and the complaints about decks selection and some other issues, might need to look at how "random" the game RNG actually is :)
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Today's changes in the beta are awesome! (And I just beat a platinum deck -- whoo hoo!)
I am just amazed and astonished at the skill and vision Zanz puts into this game. It is a never-ending source of challenge and entertainment. Thanks, Zanz!
Oh, and I have one question. Are winning streaks reset overnight? I thought I had streaks going in bronze and silver (I might be remembering wrong), and this morning none of the continuous victory circles are lit up.
Thanks,
LSK Piano
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Notice how there is a sword icon next to the "pick a League to challenge" area and a shield icon next to the "Change your Arena deck" area? You attack with your normal deck, and defend with your Arena deck.
So in other words I'm building a deck I can't use?
:(.
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One other thing that maybe should be fixes is it seems like the Oracle is giving the same card to a lot of people each day. Today I got dissipation shield and from chat, it sounds like a lot of others did as well and even more people got other types of shields in the last 2 days(I also got Hope the day before). If the idea of the oracle card is to force a variety of different decks, then it would be good to make sure the card selection is more random(and yes, I know several people I talked to getting the same or similar cards COULD happen even if it is truly random, but seems at least somewhat unlikely for that). If the oracle card is truly supposed to be completely random, than given this and the complaints about decks selection and some other issues, might need to look at how "random" the game RNG actually is :)
Confirmation bias.
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Oh, and I have one question. Are winning streaks reset overnight? I thought I had streaks going in bronze and silver (I might be remembering wrong), and this morning none of the continuous victory circles are lit up.
Most likely, they are reset any time you logout or close your browser window.
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Another patch:
- Fixed the bug that didn't allow adding upped cards to the regular deck
- Added a button to test your own Arena deck
- When the AI is drawing 2 cards per turn it will refrain from chaining more than two of the following:
Silence
Nightmare
Earthquake
Black Hole
This is a definite improvement and fixes the issues with Nightmare, Silence, and BH quite nicely I think but..not nearly as effective in dealing with Earthquake nor would it work for explosion or steal as well. With those the problem is not the chaining so much as just the sheer number of them that the AI has. At best a player can PA 6 of their permanents(including pillars) while the AI can explode or steal 24 of them(not even counting pulverizer, butterfly effect etc. which are designed to be reusable but take longer to set up). EQ is especially devastating in that you can drop 2-3 towers from your opening hand, have those blown up right away, be unable to do anything until a few turns later when you draw another one..which gets destroyed right away etc.
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Platinum is not supposed to be farmed with an 80% win rate. It's supposed to be a challenge for you to keep adapting to keep a 30-40% win rate if you have all the cards to work with.
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It's supposed to be a challenge for you
There's challenging, like beating a Mario game without collecting any coins.
And then there's stupidly hard, like beating a Mario game without powerups and using only one hand.
to keep adapting
Adapt to the, what, 200 decks out there? If you could change your deck after seeing who you're up against, adaptation would play a role. But with so many god damn decks, you can't adapt because a change in one person's deck has virtually no impact on your win rate, and every change is accompanied by another change in the opposite direction, thanks to probability.
to keep a 30-40% win rate
Not only is 30-40% pretty generous, I doubt that figure will increase in the future. Sure, we'll develop new timebows, speedbows, time stalls. But every deck published on the forums is public knowledge, and Platinum decks will adapt to farmers. And this isn't even accounting for how much better we'll be at building False God decks by the time 1.28 is live.
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Platinum is not supposed to be farmed with an 80% win rate. It's supposed to be a challenge for you to keep adapting to keep a 30-40% win rate if you have all the cards to work with.
I'll certainly agree there, however I think we also don't want to have a situation where if you don't have both an adequate amoint of quanta sources AND a PA in your opening hand, you might as well instantly quit against any deck with fire, earth, or dark in it. At the very least, I think the outcome of a match should be in doubt for a while, not having it be over as soon as you see which 2 decks are matched up.
My last game is a perfect example of the kind of thing we should avoid. My opponent's oracle card was unstable gas. My opening hand had 3 quanta towers, supernova, LS, AM, Mirror shield. Looking pretty good so far right? I play the towers and end turn. AI plays 3 explosions right away, along with a couple creatures. ok, at least I can use the supernova now and drop the shield which should help somewhat. A couple turns later, I draw another tower and play it..instantly blown up again. I play a couple scorpions..instantly firebolted. AI plays fahrenheit..ok, I don't have a PA yet but he has a lot of fire quanta so I need to do something. I play both an hourgalss and pulverizer, hoping he's burned off all his pc and knowing the hourglass will be targetted first..hopefully can at least get one use out of the pulverizer. Nope, 2 more explosions.
You could say it was an unlucky draw, but I've seen quite a few games go like this using a variety of different decks. I don't expect to win every game or even the majority of them but I do want to be able to at least PLAY against these decks, not have everything be instantly wiped out. Also worth noting that the false gods which most people seemed to have the hardest times with were Rainbow and Hermes, again in both cases because of their extremely high levels of permanent control.
Simply put, they have too many ways of destroying or stealing permanents and there are not enough ways to protect them. A similar situation exists for poison which is another type of deck that I see being fairly dominant right now. Again, there is only one card which directly counters it. At least here things aren't as bad though since poison takes a while to kill you and gives you some time to either heal yourself or just outrush it. At most, I would say making upgraded purify be free to play again or cost 1 of any quanta rather than water would adequately fix poison, if indeed it needs to be fixed at all. Permanent control will be a far more difficult one to balance but I do think something needs to be done there.
And lastly, hope it doesn't sound like I;m complaining too much on this as I do think Arena overall is a very big improvement to the game and a lot of fun. I knew as soon as I saw the idea for it that balancing it would also be very difficult. I also know that the only way it WILL get fixed is if we point out where we feel the issues are which is why this is in a beta like this in the first place.
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I like kev's idea of decay occurring at 24 hours or upon Oracle spin. I really don't see the downside and it does a lot to promote interest in the arena, increase competition, and keep the entire community involved.
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Platinum is like FG proposals,FG's made by players but you don't know what you will face. ^-^ ^-^
It's nice to play,enjoyable.But so...hard.
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The current win ratio for platinum is very close to 33%
Sounds like a perfect number to me, again, the fact that if feels frustrating to the most does not mean that it needs to be removed from the game because it is too challenging, it is the equivalent of the "level7" that a few players have been asking for.
Rewards will be adjusted accordingly when the arena will go live.
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Seems right to me, if you consider the upped rare spin and the increased rewards.
Offtopic: Why does Zanz get 3 slices of cake?
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33% because we have just a few decks, including some "NPCs" and crap decks with skeletons. When its alive and we have a lot of decks submitted every day, weak ones being quickly eliminated, I bet it will be much worse.
Every one knows PC is the worst part of FGs. FGs with no or little FGs are much more beatable. And of course a lot of players know this, and will pack decks with 12 Explosions and / or Steals. Because of this, I still think the main thing would be ban Shards and QT. Wants heavy PC? At least you cant do it in a rainbow, with a lot of creatures, hourglasses, etc.
Another good option: adding some more PA like cards.
About ranking interfering in how many games a deck will get, I agree, this COMPLETELLY SUCKS. Whats the point in having 500 decks if decks under 100 (for example) get near 0 games? Random, please.
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Ranking has nothing to do with how often a deck is played, the selection is done in .php and it is:
$ran=rand(1, N);
Where N is currently slowly increasing and soon will be set at 500.
Decks that are above N in the ranking are not played at all, that is why if you have a deck low in ranking nobody plays against it: it is not in the -soon to be- top 500.
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33% because we have just a few decks, including some "NPCs" and crap decks with skeletons. When its alive and we have a lot of decks submitted every day, weak ones being quickly eliminated, I bet it will be much worse.
Possibly. On the flip side, I suspect some progress will be made in construction counters. The nature of the platinum arena being one-sided to begin with, though, the trend is probably going to be downwards from here. There's only so much you can do to counter an opponent who gets such substantial advantages.
Personally, my main qualm with the arena is not the difficulty itself, just the lack of variety. Right now you almost get more variety grinding against FGs than in plat arena (and probably better rewards), which seems kind of backwards. The oracle card does not really do much itself to foster deck variety.
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Ranking has nothing to do with how often a deck is played, the selection is done in .php and it is:
$ran=rand(1, N);
Where N is currently slowly increasing and soon will be set at 500.
Decks that are above N in the ranking are not played at all, that is why if you have a deck low in ranking nobody plays against it: it is not in the -soon to be- top 500.
Ah thank you, I wanted to know that as well.
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Is the whole "withdrawing after seeing next player's oracle card, mark and level without breaking win streak or counting as a win for the arena deck" thing fixed? It just feels wrong that my deck, after 2 days, has only been played 18 times, while others have been played much, much more.
On another note, I feel disappointed that, after the effort put into grinding score (of course, this had no previous motivation, although it did require effort and time), platinum players are penalized with being played fewer times than their lower-ranked gold colleagues (or at least that is the impression I have from the evolution of reward price). I think increasing the reward for playing in platinum, or increasing the reward per arena (AI controlled) deck victory could balance this. The first one would be the best, as it would benefit both Platinum players and Platinum T500ers.
Apart from that, the Arena is awesome.
EDIT: I am a Platinum leaguer myself, even if only level 61.
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The current win ratio for platinum is very close to 33%
Sounds like a perfect number to me, again, the fact that if feels frustrating to the most does not mean that it needs to be removed from the game because it is too challenging, it is the equivalent of the "level7" that a few players have been asking for.
Rewards will be adjusted accordingly when the arena will go live.
This number may be inflated by skeleton decks, as mentioned. Poor deck construction should remain constant. In order for platinum to be worthwhile to play, opportunities to win ups after each game need to be available, otherwise playing false gods will remain much more profitable. In this case, a 3.6% chance of spinning for an upped rare is not worth it.
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33% because we have just a few decks, including some "NPCs" and crap decks with skeletons. When its alive and we have a lot of decks submitted every day, weak ones being quickly eliminated, I bet it will be much worse.
Every one knows PC is the worst part of FGs. FGs with no or little FGs are much more beatable. And of course a lot of players know this, and will pack decks with 12 Explosions and / or Steals. Because of this, I still think the main thing would be ban Shards and QT. Wants heavy PC? At least you cant do it in a rainbow, with a lot of creatures, hourglasses, etc.
Another good option: adding some more PA like cards.
Exactly...the arena system overall is good, just needs a few minor adjustments to certain things.
33% seems fine for a win rate and even could go somewhat lower than that and still be reasonable if we consider platinum to be the "ultimate challenge" level.
The rewards seem pretty good to me so far but many want higher...this is definitely something that has to be evaluated after it goes live and the difficulty and number of games being played can be more accurately measured.
Preventing them from being chained several times in a row fixed most of the problem cards but I still think the permanent control is an issue and not one that can be fixed in this way. Poison might be as well. In both cases, this could easily be fixed by adding a few new cards or making the existing ones more widely available OR by limiting the maximum number the AI decks can use to something like 6 instead of 12. There's probably other solutions as well and it doesn't need to be anything too extreme but something needs to be done there imho.
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Is the whole "withdrawing after seeing next player's oracle card, mark and level without breaking win streak or counting as a win for the arena deck" thing fixed?
I just tested this and it does indeed break the win streak now, so looks like that was fixed.
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Ranking has nothing to do with how often a deck is played, the selection is done in .php and it is:
$ran=rand(1, N);
Where N is currently slowly increasing and soon will be set at 500.
Decks that are above N in the ranking are not played at all, that is why if you have a deck low in ranking nobody plays against it: it is not in the -soon to be- top 500.
So the fact that we have low-ranking decks (by which I mean currently in the upper 40s) getting ~~1 play/hour and high-ranking decks (currently in the top 10) getting ~~15 plays/hour is just a coincidence?
I'll believe it if you say it, it just seems like an odd stroke of luck on the high-ranking decks' part.
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This number may be inflated by skeleton decks, as mentioned. Poor deck construction should remain constant. In order for platinum to be worthwhile to play, opportunities to win ups after each game need to be available, otherwise playing false gods will remain much more profitable. In this case, a 3.6% chance of spinning for an upped rare is not worth it.
Bear in mind that the substantially higher base income from playing platinum league games does mean your score goes up a lot faster than against FGs even if you're losing twice as often. That's going to entice some people to play even if the overall gold reward is lower. Right now, I suspect the sheer disparity in earnings would still keep most grinders away once the novelty wears off, but zanz already said the rewards will get tweaked as things go live.
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Ranking has nothing to do with how often a deck is played, the selection is done in .php and it is:
$ran=rand(1, N);
Where N is currently slowly increasing and soon will be set at 500.
Decks that are above N in the ranking are not played at all, that is why if you have a deck low in ranking nobody plays against it: it is not in the -soon to be- top 500.
So the fact that we have low-ranking decks (by which I mean currently in the upper 40s) getting ~~1 play/hour and high-ranking decks (currently in the top 10) getting ~~15 plays/hour is just a coincidence?
I'll believe it if you say it, it just seems like an odd stroke of luck on the high-ranking decks' part.
15 plays/hour? Madness. I got about 90 games in 60 hours, and I'm top 10 in Platinum... well, almost: I'm 11th now, got down a bit.
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I'm merely reporting what was told to me earlier in this very thread.
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I'm merely reporting what was told to me earlier in this very thread.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to insult you. It was a more general "madness", as in "this is madness I want moar matches too", not in "you're mad". :)
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Is there some confusion here about "high rank" and "low rank"?
A really good deck has a "low" rank, ie, the lower the number the better the deck. A rank of 1 is better than a rank of 100. But it's an easy mistake to make to call a deck with a larger rank number, ie a not so good deck, a high rank deck.
Just wanted to clarify. Does that make sense?
Thanks,
LSK Piano
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Is there some confusion here about "high rank" and "low rank"?
A really good deck has a "low" rank, ie, the lower the number the better the deck. A rank of 1 is better than a rank of 100. But it's an easy mistake to make to call a deck with a larger rank number, ie a not so good deck, a high rank deck.
Just wanted to clarify. Does that make sense?
Thanks,
LSK Piano
rank 1 is the highest rank
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What "Rating" means?
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T500 is now live in the game, btw. No need for Beta anymore.
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What "Rating" means?
I can't be sure but i think this is the eqivalent of what was referred to in the pre-patch beta as "score" (unrelated to player score). It is the number used to determine ranking in the arena and may be based on wins minus losses (needs confirmation).
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My score is -4400. =0
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Okay this is bugging me before i go sleep most time i have 4 rings 5 sometimes and when wake up there gone why this needs fixed they shouldn't be reset or gotten rid of for no reason
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Okay this is bugging me before i go sleep most time i have 4 rings 5 sometimes and when wake up there gone why this needs fixed they shouldn't be reset or gotten rid of for no reason
Win streak rings work the same way as Oracle FG predicts and pets -- once you leave the page, they're gone.
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Just a small favour.
I think it'll be a good idea to note the score range of the leagues.
For example, gold league is anywhere between 19k score and 81k score.
I think it'll be really helpful to know what to achieve. Just a small idea. =)
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Just a small favour.
I think it'll be a good idea to note the score range of the leagues.
For example, gold league is anywhere between 19k score and 81k score.
I think it'll be really helpful to know what to achieve. Just a small idea. =)
http://www.elementsthegame.com/development.html look at the bottom
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Quick question, was anyone forced to add cards to their deck?
I know the minimum is usually 30 cards, but for some reason it made me use 35.
This seemed to occur when I was promoted to silver, do you have to use more cards at each intervall?
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Quick question, was anyone forced to add cards to their deck?
I know the minimum is usually 30 cards, but for some reason it made me use 35.
This seemed to occur when I was promoted to silver, do you have to use more cards at each intervall?
Nope, all arena decks now require 35 cards.
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Just a small favour.
I think it'll be a good idea to note the score range of the leagues.
For example, gold league is anywhere between 19k score and 81k score.
I think it'll be really helpful to know what to achieve. Just a small idea. =)
http://www.elementsthegame.com/development.html look at the bottom
Yeah I know that. But what if a new card is in developement and that screen goes away?
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Just a small favour.
I think it'll be a good idea to note the score range of the leagues.
For example, gold league is anywhere between 19k score and 81k score.
I think it'll be really helpful to know what to achieve. Just a small idea. =)
http://www.elementsthegame.com/development.html look at the bottom
Yeah I know that. But what if a new card is in developement and that screen goes away?
Well, we have a nice exp bar now, so...
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Just a small favour.
I think it'll be a good idea to note the score range of the leagues.
For example, gold league is anywhere between 19k score and 81k score.
I think it'll be really helpful to know what to achieve. Just a small idea. =)
http://www.elementsthegame.com/development.html look at the bottom
Yeah I know that. But what if a new card is in developement and that screen goes away?
Well, we have a nice exp bar now, so...
Good point...
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The reward for Bronze is a staggering 0 :electrum. Lulzy.
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How much your deck gets played seems to be totally erratic to me...
The first 12 hours I got 36 games played. Then 10 each day.
Now that the arena is live my deck is played a lot more of course :)
At rank 4 in Gold League I think 10 times an hour easily...
But I really wonder how is it decided, it just looks like 100% RNG to me...
EDIT: At what time does your deck age? Which timezone I mean :)
(Today is day 5 of my deck and not sure day 6 would work too well....)
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Mine get's played about once every 3 hours, Platinum league....
Are the rewards for litting all the lights in every league the same?
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Mine get's played about once every 3 hours, Platinum league....
Are the rewards for litting all the lights in every league the same?
Gold and Platinum give off Upgraded Rares, while Bronze and Silver just give off unupped rares
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Just a question: how many people are in every league? 500?
I think it would be nice to have the rank wording modified from "Rank: X" to "Rank: X/Y" where X is my rank and Y is the total of decks in my league.
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I just get a rare spin, these with blue arrows. But was after a facing Morte. ¿Is that a bug?
Edit: I think it was Morte, but im sure that it was a FG.
OK, It happens again with Paradox. Its not a bug.
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How many top500 plays are people getting? In two days my deck has been faced three times total by the community. (1 win 2 loss, level 59 gold) I was expecting a lot more plays, but maybe people aren't playing top500 much? I'm playing it a lot (mostly in the platinum league) because the electrum rewards are so huge.
I was also expecting a bit more electrum per win, but I don't know what's normal. I got 4 electrum for my deck's arena win :p
The top500 is a great place to farm score, though :D Since arena came out, I've made 7k score, and in that amount of time, I'd have made about 2k on false gods. The money rewards are more stable in arena, as you just get electrum (and unupgraded junk) whereas false gods have a chance to drop upgraded cards, so I'm not sure which is better for cash, but it's pretty obvious to me that platinum (or gold) is the best for getting score. I've made one level so far and am close to another one, which will put me in platinum league. Yay!
Also, if zanzarino sees this, I just want to say that so far arena kicks ass! (and so does getting red nymph from oracle for my first arena spin /bragging)
edit: woo my deck got another win, and it was 4 electrum again :p Maybe that is a typical amount, then.
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edit: woo my deck got another win, and it was 4 electrum again :p Maybe that is a typical amount, then.
For Gold league? Yes, that's what I've gotten off of multiple decks in beta. My current deck has been left up for four days(I wanted to see if per-win rewards increased if you got enough), and at seventy-four wins, it still comes out to be four electrum per win. Can't speak to the others, though.
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i get 8 electrum/win on plat.
40 plays in about 20 hours.
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I'm pretty sure an armless monkey playing the starter Aether deck against AI1 makes electrum faster than Platinum decks.
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Maybe Gold League is simply not chosen much? If you look at the rewards, I'm usually seeing bronze at 0, silver at like 40-50, gold at about 140-150 and platinum at around 210-220. I'm guessing that people play mostly bronze (for rares) and platinum (for score/electrum) and aren't playing silver/gold as much. I should get into platinum league tonight, and if there are less than 500 players in platinum, then maybe I'll get more plays. My brother is also in gold league and he has 6 plays in two days, so at least based on our two accounts, I think people aren't playing against gold league opponents as often as others.
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Maybe Gold League is simply not chosen much? If you look at the rewards, I'm usually seeing bronze at 0, silver at like 40-50, gold at about 140-150 and platinum at around 210-220. I'm guessing that people play mostly bronze (for rares) and platinum (for score/electrum) and aren't playing silver/gold as much. I should get into platinum league tonight, and if there are less than 500 players in platinum, then maybe I'll get more plays. My brother is also in gold league and he has 6 plays in two days, so at least based on our two accounts, I think people aren't playing against gold league opponents as often as others.
This is very possible since there isn't really THAT much difference between gold and platinum in terms of difficulty and platinum gives better rewards and less games needed for a rare spin. The good thing about the dynamic reward system is that if this continues, at some point the reward for gold will go up to a point where it does become more profitable to try that for a while instead.
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That's a good point; the biggest difference between Platinum and Gold is maybe 50-100 extra HP, since double draws and extra marks are so much more cost-effective and everyone has it.
Speaking of which, might want to tweak the numbers for distribution.
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That's a good point; the biggest difference between Platinum and Gold is maybe 50-100 extra HP, since double draws and extra marks are so much more cost-effective and everyone has it.
Speaking of which, might want to tweak the numbers for distribution.
You need to remember that one of the most effective decks to bring against Gold is an all-out rush for that very reason. 100 hp god deck? Just smash it in 4 turns and laugh. :P Hps are undervalued.
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You need to remember that one of the most effective decks to bring against Gold is an all-out rush for that very reason. 100 hp god deck? Just smash it in 4 turns and laugh. Hps are undervalued.
If you're losing in 4 turns, an extra 100 HP gives you, what, two turns more to live? If you can draw twice as much, your longevity is essentially doubled.
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You need to remember that one of the most effective decks to bring against Gold is an all-out rush for that very reason. 100 hp god deck? Just smash it in 4 turns and laugh. Hps are undervalued.
If you're losing in 4 turns, an extra 100 HP gives you, what, two turns more to live? If you can draw twice as much, your longevity is essentially doubled.
Two more turns is enough to get healing / shields / CC on the floor. Anyway, I'm rushing Gold now and it works, while it doesn't work with Platinum.
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Two more turns is enough to get healing / shields / CC on the floor.
Don't mind me, just drawing twice as many Shards as you with my double draws
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First of all just wanna say, i'm loving this. Potentially 2000 decks ever changing. Endless entertainment.
Anyway the question is how does score and subsequently leveling up effect your arena rating?
Eg. Before I went to sleep last night, my new deck was 3-0. Rank app. 110. Not sure of rating.
When I logged in today I have leveled up to level 58. Now 8-5 (so 5 wins and losses each overnight). Rank plumeted to 800. Ranking -70.
So I have leveled up and gone 50% win rate, yet I have fallen outside the top 500. Why?
So second question, how do I get myself back into top 500 if no one can play my deck?
Also how is rating calculated in gold league? I read somewhere the formula for Platinum.
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12 dim shields... that's 36 turns... that's not fair...
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12 dim shields... that's 36 turns... that's not fair...
Have you met Gemini? PC is the way to go against Dim shields.
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The platinum league is being played more. Before I went to bed last night, my arena deck was 2-3 after 2 days in gold, and now 8 hours later spent at the bottom of platinum, it is 9-3, so it got 7 plays in less time.
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The platinum league is being played more. Before I went to bed last night, my arena deck was 2-3 after 2 days in gold, and now 8 hours later spent at the bottom of platinum, it is 9-3, so it got 7 plays in less time.
Because the Arena is live now.
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Why are there so many rainbow decks all looking almost the same??
People clearly have no imagination....
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Why are there so many rainbow decks all looking almost the same??
People clearly have no imagination....
The alternative to making a creative rainbow is making the best rainbow.
I know which one I'd pick.
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I'm pretty sure an armless monkey playing the starter Aether deck against AI1 makes electrum faster than Platinum decks.
LoL
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12 dim shields... that's 36 turns... that's not fair...
Why would you not bring at least a little perm control in to gold or platinum?
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Why are there so many rainbow decks all looking almost the same??
People clearly have no imagination....
The alternative to making a creative rainbow is making the best rainbow.
I know which one I'd pick.
There are different decks you can do and it doesn't have to be the same as everybody else's...
Probably most people will do the same, until it get's countered though, I know :)
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Yeah. That's actually something I'm worried about; that the higher Leagues (especially Platinum) are just too frustrating to play.
It is a bit frustrating and there is no incentive to play against yourself and other people in the platinum bracket.
An idea I had to possibly fix this: What if your level not only determined the deck you can submit but also your options when you go fight against the T500. So you might fight against triple mark decks but at least you have a triple mark of your own. This seems quite exciting as it would really add another dimension to PvE deckbuilding.
I was thinking the same thing, but instead you gained a skill point for every two levels, so you play a little handicapped.
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- When the AI is drawing 2 cards per turn it will refrain from chaining more than two of the following:
Silence
Nightmare
Earthquake
Black Hole
I only thought about this just now, but what about the abilities from Trident/Poseidon and Amber/Gravity Nymph? Otherwise it leaves room for a loophole :P Don't feel like ruining my current win streak with my deck to test it out myself ;)
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- When the AI is drawing 2 cards per turn it will refrain from chaining more than two of the following:
Silence
Nightmare
Earthquake
Black Hole
I only thought about this just now, but what about the abilities from Trident/Poseidon and Amber/Gravity Nymph? Otherwise it leaves room for a loophole :P Don't feel like ruining my current win streak with my deck to test it out myself ;)
At least the Nymph chains. Not too sure about the trident.
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So i can't get my arena deck to let me draw multiple cards or have a multiplier on my mark, can any1 help?
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Sure, Bruce. What's your Arena Rank?
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So i can't get my arena deck to let me draw multiple cards or have a multiplier on my mark, can any1 help?
Are you talking about the deck you submitted for arena or the one you are actually playing against it? The draw and mark multipliers and other bonuses only apply to the one you submit for the AI to play.
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12 dim shields... that's 36 turns... that's not fair...
Why would you not bring at least a little perm control in to gold or platinum?
Believe or not - I saw in Arena few decks with 12 Dim Shields and 12 Protect Artifact ;) It doesn't work very good with AI, but it shows that in Arena we have a lot of annoying decks.
What is more - in my opinion it isn't so good that we have a lot of SoG, Dim Shields etc in Arena games. Only few elements has got PC, so we must play Fire/Dark in gold/platinum...? It's not fair in compare with other elements... And remember, that You can have 6 Explosions - Your Opponent can have 12 each permament.
Idea of Arena is very very good, but something goes wrong (we can see less plays every day...)
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Arena decks are chaining BHs on me. Not only that, they also use multiple BHs per turn. I WANTS NURRRF ON BH.
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The nerf is already in place. The way it works is this: every time past the first that a BH is cast, the AI gains a 'guilt' point. Each guilt point makes the AI less likely to cast BH again. But they still might. It's just less likely.
If an entire turn goes by with no BH being cast, all guilt points are erased.
Same rules apply to Earthquake, Silence, and I think one other spell, but I don't remember what.
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The nerf is already in place. The way it works is this: every time past the first that a BH is cast, the AI gains a 'guilt' point. Each guilt point makes the AI less likely to cast BH again. But they still might. It's just less likely.
If an entire turn goes by with no BH being cast, all guilt points are erased.
Same rules apply to Earthquake, Silence, and I think one other spell, but I don't remember what.
Nightmare?
This sounds like a good system to me. Im glad Zanz didnt outright stop them from chaining them.
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yeah right.
First: So our AI sucks, so let the AI cheat like there is no tomorrow. A fair game? Not here.
Second: let the AI cheat even more. More Bonuses for the AI!
Third: uhm, dang. Did we cheat too much? NO WAY! Just let's make the AI even MORE STUPID. Let's make the AI show some mercy, right? And then add some more unfair bonuses for the AI.
...
oh boy. The arena shows, what a trainwreck this game has become by now.
Just stop it already.
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Insert obsenity-laden-epithet filled rant here.
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Insert obsenity-laden-epithet filled rant here.
This sort of thing is not acceptable here in the Elements community. Please keep your posts polite and remember that we have younger players on these forums.
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Insert obsenity-laden-epithet filled rant here.
Yeah, sorry for that.
:)
Nevertheless I really think it's a problem when AI is only a challenge, when it's granted a tons of bonuses and other cheap cheats and tricks. Sure. Programming AI is hard. But the latest development with the arena clearly shows the problems with this "cheap" approach.
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Nevertheless I really think it's a problem when AI is only a challenge, when it's granted a tons of bonuses and other cheap cheats and tricks. Sure. Programming AI is hard. But the latest development with the arena clearly shows the problems with this "cheap" approach.
I imagine that if you are willing to write the code to make the AI play flawlessly and to donate it for free and maintain it etc, Zanz would consider it...;)
Right now, the AI seems to work by applying a few very simple rules to determine whether or not to play a card at any time and if so, what to target with it. These are usually as simple as (If hp <60 OR expected_hp after opponents next turn < 10, play Miracle if able to) or choosing the best creature to target (attack + ability_modifier). I'm sure a few more simple rules like this could be added to improve things slightly but to get the level of AI you seem to want would take far more than this.
Basically you'd have to have something that worked in the same way as a chess engine where it evaluates EVERY possible move and what the results would be and then every possible next move after that, evaluating out this tree of possibilities until either the game would end or out to some arbitrary depth and then calculating the probability of winning and what the best move to make would be based on that. Except in the case of Elements, this would be FAR more complicated than it would for chess.
First of all, there are far more possible moves at every step to consider..in chess there are likely to be only a couple dozen moves available on any turn, many of which could quickly be discarded as obviously bad. For elements, you'd have to look at each card in your hand one by one, considering every possible target for it(just for one spell, this could easily give as many possible moves as an entire turn in chess would). Then there's the fact that in chess, each turn consists of only one move per player, while in Elements, there could be a dozen or more moves(cards played, creature abilities used, more cards drawn via hourglasses etc) in a single turn. Chess only has half a dozen different types of pieces to consider while Elements would have hundreds..and the interactions between them is far more complicated. Last but certainly not least, in chess the entire position and in theory at least, it is always possible to calculate every move and response out to the end of the game and get an exact answer to which move is best. In elements, the AI won't(or at least shouldn't, unless you want to substitute one "unfair" advantage for another) even know what all the cards in your deck are, let alone which cards either player will draw next or any other of the many random events in the game. In fact, currently the AI doesn't even really seem to know what's in it's OWN deck. Its decisions are limited to the cards currently in play and its hand. However, changing it so it could understand its own deck and how to take full advantage of it would again require a fairly complicated analysis of how dozens of different cards interact. Oh yeah, and finally the rules and pieces for chess have been relatively constant for hundreds of years, compared to Elements having significant new stuff added every few months(with corresponding need to adjust the AI accordingly).
Yet even the comparatively "trivial" task of making a really good chess engine took decades of work by many of the top programmers in the world. It would hardly be fair to expect Zanz alone to be able to write anything remotely comparable for Elements by himself, especially for free. So obviously, there is no way the AI can be nearly as good or expected to play anything close to the level a human would. At best, a few of the rules for what to target when could be improved slightly. Personally I'd be happy if it was as simple as slightly better targeting on Fractal(knowing when to keep going for the small creatures and when it can afford to use a dragon instead, or Decay not targetting my RoLs and ruining its whole deck's strategy in the process) or Lionheart not drawing through his entire deck in 5 turns and decking himself out because he also made all his creatures untargetable and has nothing left to rewind.
Sorry this is a bit long, but before complaining about the AI too much, it seems only fair to think about what would actually be required to make it much better. I don't see any practical way a truly "intelligent" AI could be made for a game this complicated, so odds are making it challenging will always require giving it some other "unfair" advantages.
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I imagine that if you are willing to write the code to make the AI play flawlessly and to donate it for free and maintain it etc, Zanz would consider it...;)
Last time I checked, Elements wasn't Open Source. Thus, I'm afraid, we're out of luck.
And sure, AI is hard. It's the hardest part of any game. But this doesn't mean that the situation is hopeless. Nobody needs perfect solutions, good approximations are fine too.
How about this for some input (at least): let there be an interface to express AI-rules, exactly like you described them, with simple checks of certain conditions. Then, let the user define such rules for his arena-decks.
I'm thinking about rules like: don't play my creature X, unless we can immediately put card A and card B on it.
If we have to discard a card, do it in this order.
Target creatures in that order.
Use my protect articfact for this and this only.
And so on.
I don't think it would be too hard to come up with a generic interface to express such rules for any cards and lots of circumstances. Then it's up to us, to write groovie rules for our personal arena decks.
And maybe, just maybe, the AI wouldn't need 12 explosions anymore to be some sort of opponent.
The point here is, that it's really hard to write a rule-set for all decks imaginable. But a good rule set for a distinct fine deck isnt that hard after all. :)
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How about this for some input (at least): let there be an interface to express AI-rules, exactly like you described them, with simple checks of certain conditions. Then, let the user define such rules for his arena-decks.
The point here is, that it's really hard to write a rule-set for all decks imaginable. But a good rule set for a distinct fine deck isnt that hard after all. :)
That certainly would be possible(though probably not nearly as easy as you think) and would be a definite improvement. The number of rules would probably have to be fairly limited and with the default rules used if you don't have a custom one for a given situation but even one or two rules could make a difference with some decks. I also imagine something like this would have to be done VERY carefully to avoid the chance of it being exploited in some way though.
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People seem to forget elements only has 1 developer....
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I imagine that if you are willing to write the code to make the AI play flawlessly and to donate it for free and maintain it etc, Zanz would consider it...;)
Last time I checked, Elements wasn't Open Source. Thus, I'm afraid, we're out of luck.
He's not talking about open source. We used to have this coder called chriskang who was working on the autotarget function of the AI. He got that permission from Zanz.
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My deck is sooo strong!!!!
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I imagine that if you are willing to write the code to make the AI play flawlessly and to donate it for free and maintain it etc, Zanz would consider it...;)
Last time I checked, Elements wasn't Open Source. Thus, I'm afraid, we're out of luck.
He's not talking about open source. We used to have this coder called chriskang who was working on the autotarget function of the AI. He got that permission from Zanz.
is there a different coder for the AI that is keeping them up-to-date? ... assuming chriskang quit
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Nope, but Zanz has been updating it a bit lately.
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oh well at least it's up to date then :)
would be cool though if he could find another coder to make the AIs play more like people do
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oh well at least it's up to date then :)
would be cool though if he could find another coder to make the AIs play more like people do
You COULD make them play like people do, but not EXACTLY like people do.
If that was possible, PVP wouldn't be much different to AIs.
KEYWORDS: IF IT WAS POSSIBLE
But yeah. Other than that, it would be nice for AIs to have improved intelligence Just incase they weren't smart enough...
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If they knew what was in their decks, they could save their buff cards for better creatures to come. That alone would make them play a lot more like players do.
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But sometimes if players won't draw that card they'll play their buffs on strong cards on the field already - "fuzzy logic". Programming an AI like that is very difficult.
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Bah. Just build a weighted neural net and feed it every move every player performs for a year along with the conditions each move was made under. It'll take a long time, but when it's ready, the new AI will beat <i>everyone!</i>
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Bah. Just build a weighted neural net and feed it every move every player performs for a year along with the conditions each move was made under. It'll take a long time, but when it's ready, the new AI will beat <i>everyone!</i>
sounds a lot easier than i thought it would. plus, it would make it a ton easier to win in arena (the AI arena deck)
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Bah. Just build a weighted neural net and feed it every move every player performs for a year along with the conditions each move was made under. It'll take a long time, but when it's ready, the new AI will beat <i>everyone!</i>
Failed formatting :P
So all we need to do for a year is make the stupidest moves imaginable, and then farm Platinum like crazy!
EDIT: 200th POST!!! I'M A FULL MEMBER, BABY!! *makes custom avatar*
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Bah. Just build a weighted neural net and feed it every move every player performs for a year along with the conditions each move was made under. It'll take a long time, but when it's ready, the new AI will beat <i>everyone!</i>
There is something called genetic algorithms, and although I don't know how exactly they could be implemented, that could also be an option (correct me if I'm wrong, I know~ 0 about programming).
On an unrelated note, the "extra upgraded cards" cheat/hack might be back, either that or a league's leader gets 100% free upgrades.
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Bah. Just build a weighted neural net and feed it every move every player performs for a year along with the conditions each move was made under. It'll take a long time, but when it's ready, the new AI will beat <i>everyone!</i>
There is something called genetic algorithms, and although I don't know how exactly they could be implemented, that could also be an option (correct me if I'm wrong, I know~ 0 about programming).
On an unrelated note, the "extra upgraded cards" cheat/hack might be back, either that or a league's leader gets 100% free upgrades.
I know about programming, and belive me: Making an AI is damn difficult and has to be very well thought to make pretty easy a single simple vatiarion on it, that's why there are 1001 minor bugs constantly being corrected.
That's why i know that arrainging more or less the order of the cards of a deck would be absolutely useless and not effective at all to make a normal player notice it. I mean, playing 20 times against a simple deck like Eternal Phoenix or Akebono would make you think the games are pretty similar to each other.
About genetic algorithms, what they do is "mutate" something (for example the order of the cards in the deck) to something similar, considering little variations from the mutated object. It's hard coding and it is MUCH easier to make a simple random sort of the cards in the deck.
Hope this is usefull to you, i belive AI has a normal code which is only modified when someone want to make a specific change.
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I believe that there was a glitch -- Playing a Silver match, my opponent apparently started with 50 HP, and I gained 553 electrum and something like 600 score for winning.
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It just happened again -- Gained over 300 electrum for beating a Silver with 68 HP.
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Arena decks lose HP as they age and the highest ranked decks give more electrum and score than normal after a win. Neither of those are a glitch.
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To get into the top 10, you have to have had a deck up for many days (and get lucky with getting a lot of plays), so the top decks have often lost a lot of HP.
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I see, but it is a bit strange to be making over 100/game for beating a player with 1 HP (just gained 150ish for doing so).
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Do my 5 "Starting cards" ever change? I basically got screwed over with them because I don't have the money to up cards and the starting cards are Gravity :(
I mean, I could keep farming until I have enough to build an upped deck but is there any way to change the cards?
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Do my 5 "Starting cards" ever change? I basically got screwed over with them because I don't have the money to up cards and the starting cards are Gravity :(
I mean, I could keep farming until I have enough to build an upped deck but is there any way to change the cards?
It changes every day when you visit the Oracle. Unless the Oracle gives you the same card of course.
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Ah, thanks. If I get a good card (say Nymph), and I don't visit the Oracle the next day, will my starting cards change anyway?
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Ah, thanks. If I get a good card (say Nymph), and I don't visit the Oracle the next day, will my starting cards change anyway?
You can keep using the same card for a few days(whether you visit the oracle or not) by just leaving the deck as it is or by using modify deck rather than build a new one. However your deck will start losing hp every day. For the first few days, this is barely noticeable but the amouint lost doubles each day, so by day 5-6 it starts getting to be quite a lot. I would recommend changing your deck based on the following:
Day 1-2: Only replace if your current card is bad and you get a better one to replace it
3-4: This is probably about when most decks should be replaced
5-6: Only if your deck has been doing very well and is still winning despite the hp loss or if you had gotten especially terrible cards the previous couple days
7+: Your deck was in the top 5 and you feel like being nice and leaving it up as a farm until it drops in rank :P
Of course almost any card CAN probably be used effectively if you are good enough at deckbuilding and have the right supporting cards available, so which cards you consider good or bad will largely be determined by that. I would say though that most nymphs probably won't actually be that great a card to use(though of course getting one means you have also won that nymph so I wouldn't complain about it either ;) ). Having one or two nymphs in a deck is probably good but with a few possible exceptions, having 5 or 10 of them won't be nearly as good due to the high cost.
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Yeah, Hodari's 'schedule' of days is about how I have been doing things. I don't know if nymphs are more likely now, but I've gotten two since the arena went live :) The monofire deck I built around red nymph did pretty good (like 50-20 or so) but the monoentropy one I have up right now is a flop at 4-5; I think the AI is having trouble playing entropy, since it is a more difficult element to play right than fire. (fire = dump hand, smash stuff, entropy = actual strategy) Maybe it's all in the pillars; in fire I had a lot more upgraded towers, but in entropy I just had a few upped pendulums from a voodoo deck.
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Yeah, Hodari's 'schedule' of days is about how I have been doing things. I don't know if nymphs are more likely now, but I've gotten two since the arena went live :)
I've also gotten 2 nymphs since arena went live. I thought I was just lucky, but it seems to me like they have become a more common oracle card.
Do you know if your arena deck continues to lose hp each day after day 6?
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Do you know if your arena deck continues to lose hp each day after day 6?
Of course you still lose.