Poll

Which cards are OP?

Antimatter
10 (2.6%)
Bone Wall
6 (1.6%)
Black Hole
25 (6.5%)
Devourer
11 (2.8%)
Dimensional/Phase Shield
31 (8%)
Discord
15 (3.9%)
Earthquake/Quicksand
24 (6.2%)
Graboid/Elite Graboid
21 (5.4%)
Ghost of the Past
15 (3.9%)
Gravity Nymph
12 (3.1%)
Nova/Supernova
7 (1.8%)
Pandemonium
7 (1.8%)
Purify
2 (0.5%)
Purple Nymph
6 (1.6%)
Quantum Pillar/Tower
8 (2.1%)
Reverse Time/Rewind
20 (5.2%)
Shard of Divinity
1 (0.3%)
Shard of Focus
87 (22.5%)
Shard of Readiness
7 (1.8%)
Shard of Sacrifice
60 (15.5%)
None of them
11 (2.8%)

Total Members Voted: 175

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Offline Antagon

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Re: [POLL] Most Overpowered? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4031.msg115140#msg115140
« Reply #84 on: July 15, 2010, 05:43:19 pm »
can you please make votes removable or clear poll once? already voted and cannot remove(change)

Offline plastiqeTopic starter

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Re: [POLL] Most Overpowered? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4031.msg115228#msg115228
« Reply #85 on: July 15, 2010, 07:55:36 pm »
can you please make votes removable or clear poll once? already voted and cannot remove(change)
I'm quite sure I checked the option last time and I'm 100% sure I ticked it this time when creating the new poll.. for some reason removing and changing votes isn't working.

Re: [POLL] Most Overpowered Card? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4031.msg116425#msg116425
« Reply #86 on: July 16, 2010, 10:29:26 pm »
Extremely surprised there is only one vote for Quintessence.
Don't you remember all the games with your life rush that a quinted oty gets out on the second turn?

Re: [POLL] Most Overpowered Card? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4031.msg116469#msg116469
« Reply #87 on: July 16, 2010, 11:58:16 pm »
Two words: Thorn Carapace.

(Yes, I know, you said RUSH.  Rush decks are supposed to sacrifice defense, though.)

Offline godofdeath500

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Re: [POLL] Most Overpowered Card? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4031.msg116772#msg116772
« Reply #88 on: July 17, 2010, 01:26:22 pm »
I choose Earthquake, Fractal, and Quintessence.  Earthquake for obvious reasons. I only choose fractal as a filler.

Reason I chose Quintessence:
You can't target the creature.

I think a nerf is long overdue. My suggestion:

Temporary Immortally. For 5 turns. That way it is taken down as a staple in rainbow decks. It would still be temporary immortally.
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Re: [POLL] Most Overpowered Card? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4031.msg116843#msg116843
« Reply #89 on: July 17, 2010, 03:53:31 pm »
/* Note: By "over-powered" I mean something strong enough to deserve a mega nerf, like sundial got. Reducing sog to 3 healing per turn (or even 4) would constitute a mega nerf imo, but if we maybe increased its cost to 3 other, well that wouldn't be nearly as bad. However, in some cases, increasing the cost by 1 WOULD count as a mega nerf, namely quicksand (since it's then unsplashable, which would severely hinder deck building options). */

I don't think anything is OP. I'll explain my reasoning here:

First off, defining an over-powered deck: An over-powered deck is a deck that has solely one or two counters and can destroy any other deck.

The presence of an OP deck results in a pvp skew of using one of three types: the OP deck, its few counters, and other decks that can beat the counters but not the OP deck. AKA, a rock-paper-scissors game where 2/3 of the decks are the same 2-3 decks.

Now let's define an OP card:
1) For a card to be OP, you must be able to create an OP deck USING that card. Reasoning that "well this card is OP but I can't think of a way to capitalize on the OPness" is very wrong.

2) For the corollary of this, to identify an OP card you must identify that most integral and strongest part of this OP deck.

Now, here's my reasoning for none of these cards being OP: THERE IS NO PVP SKEW. In the metagame, which I count as championship league (all upped cards, and everybody is a good deckbuilder), no single deck dominates with only a couple counters.
______________________________________________________________________

Another commonly held belief is that when a card is used in so many different deck archetypes (I'll use sog as an example), it is OP. They sometimes point to the sundial example for this.

I can see similarities between the past situation of sundial and the current situation of shard of gratitude. Both were/are the quintessential stall card, and almost every stall deck involved them. However, this wasn't a function of how overpowered they were, and instead a function of their accessibility: both cost either other or 0 quanta to play (upped). Now, as soon as sundial was nerfed, it was made not as effective except in its own little niche and instead sog stepped up to the plate.

So you may be thinking "okay, but now sog is OP and needs to be nerfed". Which I disagree with. Pre-sundial nerf, if a rush deck didn't have permanent control, it was nearly impossible to out rush a stall deck using sundials, since you could essentially chain sundials due to the card drawing ability (1 sundial = 2 turns without damage taken and 4 cards drawn). Basically the only way to counter it was bring a deck with perm control, bring a deck with quanta control (only earthquake at the time, or pests in some cases), or use another stall deck yourself. However, nowadays, sogs can be countered much easier. It isn't nearly on the same level as sundial was. Rush decks can out rush them because they don't provide card drawing, and can't completely stop a creature's attack. Each sog does, after all, only heal 5 per turn. It's rather easy for a rush deck to do 30 damage per turn, and that's how much the sogs will be healing endgame, when a common rush deck may have 70+ damage out.

Just because sog is used just as much as sundial was doesn't mean it's just as strong.

Another note is that nerfing sog because it's used in so many stall decks nerfs those stall decks as well, which is not a good thing since none of those stall decks are overly powerful.
______________________________________________________________________

Does a card being powerful really constitute OPness? Every game has and needs powerful cards. I won't use any real life examples, because of the differences between RL and online game dissemination (real life, all the OP cards can't be collected up and changed like the online games can). However, a game where all the cards are the same power and one deck isn't stronger than another makes for a boring game. In the metagame where everyone uses strong decks, every single match would be a coin toss. You might as well just use the coin flip at the beginning of the match to determine who wins.

In the game as it is, however, where some decks beat one deck and lose to another but the deck it beats can beat a few different decks and those decks lose to (etc etc), it is full of picking and counter picking and is more mind games than a coin toss. Every good deck *usually* uses a few top tier cards, but that doesn't mean the top tier cards are OP. It means they're powerful.
______________________________________________________________________

One final point is that nerfing some of these cards would result in another card becoming OP, and nerfing that would make another one OP, and so on, setting off a chain reaction of OP ness :D .

Example:
1) Black Hole is nerfed.
2) Speed rainbows grow in prominance since they don't need to worry about black hole as much anymore.
3) So because of speed rainbows prominance, supernova is nerfed.
4) When supernova gets nerfed, suddenly decks using quicksand become a whole lot stronger against rainbows since supernova can't counter it as effectively.
5) Quicksand is nerfed due to graboid rush prominance.
6) The absence of the quicksand threat makes some stall decks a lot more powerful, namely decks that use sogs and need a lot of quanta.
7) So then sogs are nerfed due to their sudden strength.
 8) And it goes on and on... Until eventually, you're right back where you started and black hole needs another nerf.
______________________________________________________________________

In addition, this poll has inherent flaws.

1) First, we must accept that many of the people voting in this topic may only have 1-3 decks and so can't take an objective look at a card's OPness. They view everything through that filter and compare how every card does against their decks. Maybe all their decks require high quanta usage, so earthquake completely ruins it. While they may not think of all the other decks and archetypes that earthquake can't touch, they automatically assume it's OP. And then go vote for it.

2) Not judging a card by the decks it's used in. I've seen someone say earthquake is OP because it destroys 3 cards for 1. Yes, that seems strong in theory, but in practice, it really isn't due to the abundance of decks that use supernovas or low quanta usage or no/limited pillars. Because the cards it destroys are quanta generators, it may not be able to stop the deck from playing creatures if it is a deck requiring low quanta usage (speed poison or life rush) or even mid quanta usage if the deck is played right. And saying "it destroys 3 cards for 1" isn't entirely accurate. It destroys *up to* 3 *pillars* for 1, which isn't nearly as strong.

3) The name of the topic. Some newbs make look at it and go "okay, so all the cards in here are OP, so now which 3 are the strongest imo? those are the ones i'll vote for!". "Most Overpowered Card" implies that all the cards contained in the topic are OP, but at different levels. Though it says "Which are OP?" at the top of the actual topic, many newbs wouldn't read that. Change it to "[POLL] Which Cards are OP?".




...I think I'm done. *Steps off soapbox*.

Offline ratcharmer

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Re: [POLL] Most Overpowered Card? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4031.msg117009#msg117009
« Reply #90 on: July 17, 2010, 09:34:55 pm »
Well said and well reasoned, puppychow

I to, feel that nerfing cards already in the game could have awkward consequences, and certain cards will always seem strong compared to others if you always nerf the card that seems strongest you'll end up nerfing everything into non-existence.

I think the best thing to do about cards that seem strong is to introduce new ways to deal with them: Black hole for rainbows, poisonous creatures for otys etc.

Offline plastiqeTopic starter

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Re: [POLL] Most Overpowered Card? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4031.msg117095#msg117095
« Reply #91 on: July 18, 2010, 12:20:27 am »
Well thought out and long post Pup, but I disagree on a few points.

Quote
Now let's define an OP card:
1) For a card to be OP, you must be able to create an OP deck USING that card. Reasoning that "well this card is OP but I can't think of a way to capitalize on the OPness" is very wrong.

2) For the corollary of this, to identify an OP card you must identify that most integral and strongest part of this OP deck.
People used to mix 4 :fire Lava Golems and 5 :fire Lava Destroyers and be able to play both on the first turn by using Cremation on another creature, and this was deemed overpowered.  Was Lava Golem the most integral and strongest part of this four card combo?  No.  Using your definition it probably should have been Cremation that was nerfed. 

So while deck vs deck is relevant to some degree... I don't think it should be the determining factor to find out if something is OP.  I think you need to look at specific situations, not decks as a whole.  Things like..
- power level in relation to similar cards
- cost balanced with effect
- card advantage
..are what determines an OP card.  And just because there is a way to counter a card does not mean it is fair and balanced


Quote
1) First, we must accept that many of the people voting in this topic may only have 1-3 decks and so can't take an objective look at a card's OPness.
So the only opinions that matter are the players in CL, Elitism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitism) much?

Quote
2) Not judging a card by the decks it's used in.
Just because you can play a pillarless deck and be immune to Earthquake.. or use Protect Artifact and be immune to Earthquake.. it does not mean that EQ isn't OP.  Here is an all to common situation that anybody can relate to:

Earth player goes first and drops earth pillars.
Other player goes second and plays their pillars.
Earthquake destroys 3 pillars.

It doesn't matter what the decktypes are.. in that situation Earthquake is overpowered.  Another problem I have with EQ.. how many mono and duo decks are ruined by it?  Seems to me that mono and duo decks need all the help they can get..  seems to me it's to the point that EQ is bad for the meta because it makes so many decks unviable.

Quote
3) "Most Overpowered Card" implies that all the cards contained in the topic are OP, but at different levels".... "Change it to "[POLL] Which Cards are OP?".
Good point, I'll change the title.

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Re: [POLL] Most Overpowered Card? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4031.msg117170#msg117170
« Reply #92 on: July 18, 2010, 02:16:01 am »
Quote from: plastiqe
And just because there is a way to counter a card does not mean it is fair and balanced
Quoted for truth.


Quote from: Puppychow
However, a game where all the cards are the same power and one deck isn't stronger than another makes for a boring game. In the metagame where everyone uses strong decks, every single match would be a coin toss. You might as well just use the coin flip at the beginning of the match to determine who wins.
Actually it is complete opposite of that.
At current metagame, winner is often decided before the match. Who managed to blindly pick a "perfect counter". THAT is boring. If the cards would be more balanced among themselves, optimizing decks and actual card playing skill would become much more important.
Finally, balance of cards does not mean all decks are completely equal.

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Re: [POLL] Which Cards are Overpowered? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4031.msg117178#msg117178
« Reply #93 on: July 18, 2010, 02:30:54 am »
Only voted for Shard of Gratitude this time around. You can basically put that card in any deck and gain an edge over many decks.

Slightly torn on if I should vote for Earthquake or not, as I was able to work around it quite a few times. I may be a bit biased because I simply like the card, as well.

PuppyChow

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Re: [POLL] Which Cards are Overpowered? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4031.msg117633#msg117633
« Reply #94 on: July 18, 2010, 07:20:47 pm »
Quote
People used to mix 4 Lava Golems and 5 Lava Destroyers and be able to play both on the first turn by using Cremation on another creature, and this was deemed overpowered.  Was Lava Golem the most integral and strongest part of this four card combo?  No.  Using your definition it probably should have been Cremation that was nerfed. 

So while deck vs deck is relevant to some degree... I don't think it should be the determining factor to find out if something is OP.  I think you need to look at specific situations, not decks as a whole.  Things like..
- power level in relation to similar cards
- cost balanced with effect
- card advantage
..are what determines an OP card.
Using my definition, I would say it was the ability for an unupped golem and upped golem to be played by a single cremation that is over powered.

So no, actually. The over powered part would be the 4 cost lava golem. The goal should be to balance things with as low a nerf as possible. Sure, nerfing cremation would solve the problem too, but that may have a cascading effect on making other decks unviable too. Increasing lava golem's cost by 1, however, would solve the problem and have the least effect on other decks.

The other things you say are true too, but generally when a cost is not balanced with the effect or some such (to the degree that it warrants a super nerf), you can make an OP deck with it. I'm not saying cards like steal for 2  :darkness didn't deserve the nerf. I'll be using two terms henceforth: macro nerf and micro nerf. Micro nerfs are the small balance effects that are applied as the game goes on; increasing this card by 1, decreasing that cards cost by 1, increasing this creatures attack by 1, etc... While macro nerfs are what cards like sundial, nova (earlier), and such got.

I'm arguing against macro nerfs. Some cards listed may indeed be in need of a micro nerf (making sog cost 3 other, or quicksand always leaving 1 pillar for instance). But none deserve a macro nerf (making sog heal 3, or quicksand cost 3).
 
Quote
And just because there is a way to counter a card does not mean it is fair and balanced
You're completely right. However...

I'm talking about multiple counters. Like at least three ARCHETYPES (not just decks. archetypes.)

And the presence if a MULTITUDE of counters does indeed mean it is fair and balanced.

 
Quote
So the only opinions that matter are the players in CL, Elitism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitism) much?
Not at all. In fact, some players in the beginner's league probably have a better perspective than some in the championship league.

400 People voted in the last topic.

Now, maybe a lot of them DO have the ability to create decks. However, the probability is some of them only vote for a card because they always lose to a deck using it and don't think of any counters.

As evidence, let me point to the topics by surf:
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,7809.0.html (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,7809.0.html)
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,8048.msg98602.html (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,8048.msg98602.html)

Especially in the first one. Surf was much too focused on his deck(s?) always losing to decks with antimatter that he failed to think of all the possible counters.

Quote
It doesn't matter what the decktypes are.. in that situation Earthquake is overpowered.  Another problem I have with EQ.. how many mono and duo decks are ruined by it?  Seems to me that mono and duo decks need all the help they can get..  seems to me it's to the point that EQ is bad for the meta because it makes so many decks unviable.
Okay. If you run adrenaline versus a bone wall in that situation adrenaline is overpowered. That doesn't mean it's overpowered overall though.

Mono and duo decks aren't necessarily ruined by EQ. If you play it smart (see a time mark or earth mark you play your pillars sparingly) you can counter it rather easily. And low quanta usage decks like life rush or speed poison won't even care if your towers are all killed since they can basically play all their cards just by the 2 quanta generated by the towers themselves.

Finally, decks aren't made unviable by EQ. I don't know what world you live in, but when I make a great deck but it happens to lose to a deck with EQ, I don't mind. One example: Mono light (or light/fire).

Quote
Actually it is complete opposite of that.
At current metagame, winner is often decided before the match. Who managed to blindly pick a "perfect counter". THAT is boring.
Finally, balance of cards does not mean all decks are completely equal.
Blindly? There's nothing blindly about it. I know some people have spread sheets (I don't) of every championship league match they've played to discover tendencies, such as Terro trends towards speed rainbow in the first match and then goes to fire stall (I have no clue if this is accurate). Or you use mindgames on your opponent to make them think something, like one time maybe taking a long time to switch decks and never actually switching. Or very loudly stating "lemme have a minute to switch" and take a long time, and then actually switch hoping they'll assume you're bluffing.

Quote
If the cards would be more balanced among themselves, optimizing decks and actual card playing skill would become much more important.
Maybe, that's where micro nerfs come in. Currently macro nerfs aren't anywhere close to being needed.

And currently, actual card playing needs no almost no skill at all. The skill is in the deck building. In fact, in some ways, things such as quicksands prowess or supernova's power results in the only skill needed (play 1 tower at a time against earth decks, black holing at the right time, etc). Otherwise playing the cards is largely skill-less.

Nerfing some cards like sog or quicksand (well, nerfing them in a large way) would greatly reduce the possible deck choices. And I'm not even talking about hugely competitive decks. I'm talking about niche decks that are just for fun or can compete but not at a high level (things like pharaohs for instance).

Quote
Finally, balance of cards does not mean all decks are completely equal.
Of course not. It means that in the metagame when all decks are optimized, or even for beginners who just get optimized decks off the forum, the decks WOULD be equal.

And if you're saying that some cards still counter other cards, well, why change anything save for a few minor cost adjustments? Since that's how it is right now, after all.

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Re: [POLL] Which Cards are Overpowered? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4031.msg117654#msg117654
« Reply #95 on: July 18, 2010, 08:02:46 pm »
Look, a card is broken if it can be used as an "I win" card, meaning no matter what other cards you have with it, drawing it gives you victory.  Combos and decks cannot be broken or overpowered.  Those words only apply to cards.

The most well known example of a broken card is the black lotus from magic the gathering.  It wasn't a land, meaning it could be chained with lands, and with itself, and in every case it would single handedly make your deck three turns faster, with almost no exception.  If you played it, you won the match.  No matter what other cards you had in your hand, as you could play them three turns faster, you won.  The fact that it was free to play meant even mana control couldn't defeat it.

Elements has no broken cards.

Fractal is element's most "I win" card.  The card advantage is so huge it's taking a toll on other new cards, which have to have cost increases to not get abused.  Where once the maximum amount of a certain card was six, now one has to balance 23 of it.  That isn't fair to new cards.  The only possible way to defeat fractal is to capitalize it's giant cost, or to use mass creature control cards.  Mass CC cards are fire shield, thorn carapace, rain of fire, pandemonium, flooding, and plague.  But as there are only six of these, the much more effective method is quantum control.  To balance it instead of losing all aether quanta, the player loses all quanta of the element of the target card.  Suddenly, you can't turtle and drop 40 damage.  You still can't chain fractals (with the exception of RoL but that's balanced as it makes RoL+Hope decks a little bit weaker because fractal-ing dragons is slowed considerably).  With this nerf, one actually has to make strategic decisions about which creature is fractaled, instead of just picking a good hitter from an off element and then praying for a decent draw.  As ScaredGirl's Frack You deck proved, it doesn't matter what creature you fractal.  In fact, the entire deck was based around fractalling a random creature your opponent played, and it was still effective enough to beat the AI3.  This nerf fixes that.

Earthquake is incredibly close to an "I win" card.  With six of them in your deck, earthquakes can demolish 18 pillars, enough to single handedly demolish most decks.  And the stalling from earthquakes means that in most cases, an earthquake will stop an enemy deck.  Rainbows, mono decks, duo decks, heck, every deck is completely threatened by it's wrath.  The only element that stands a chance is earth because of protect artifact, but that still gives opponents 92% chance of being able to effectively use earthquake.  I say it isn't an "I win" card for four reasons only.  RoL+hope.  Luciferin Life Rush.  Pillarless Fire.  Super Nova.  Earthquake DOES need a nerf.  More pillar protection needs to be added.  Perhaps a gravity permanent called "stabilize" that gives all pillars protection for an upkeep.  Earthquake also needs to be physically nerfed.  The average deck has 6-10 pillars, and the average game lasts 6-8 turns.  In that time, a 30 card deck will draw 2-3 earthquakes, leaving behind a best case scenario of 4 pillars.  If earthquakes only killed 2 pillars, then the average deck would be able to overcome.  I argue this is balanced because the quanta interchange is the exact same as with devourers.  The ability to fractal and burrow devourers balances out the rarity of permanent protection in a deck.

Phase shields come close, making your opponents deck three turns slower, but they can be countered.  Granted, they cannot be countered by aether, life, light, time, or water, but they can still be defeated.  Plus, aether can also stall for three turns, life can heal to survive, as can light, and time can reverse time.  Water probably suffers the most due to phase shields, but with purifies and Poseidons it's got a chance, and with lances and nymph's tears, it's versatile enough to survive.  Chaining these, however, completely demolishes 60% of all decks in the game (statistic guesstimated).  Still, a minor nerf would be nice, and this nerf also applies to wings.  If the player takes damage while the shield is in play, it is destroyed.  This isn't too powerful of a nerf, as most decks that have direct damage don't pack creatures, and vice versa, but it gives many decks a chance to get around the three turns of protection.

Hope is the last card I feel deserving of mention, and I'll be brief because it's nerf is more based upon my personal preference.  Just get rid of it's protectedness and it'll be balanced.

 

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