Elements the Game Forum - Free Online Fantasy Card Game

Elements the Game => Card Ideas and Art => Level 4 - Reliquary => Topic started by: plastiqe on December 10, 2010, 02:36:48 am

Title: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: plastiqe on December 10, 2010, 02:36:48 am
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y200/plastiqe/Minotaur1.png)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y200/plastiqe/minotaur2.png)
NAME:
Minotaur
ELEMENT:
Time
COST:
4 :time
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
4 | 4
TEXT:
If Minotaur is discarded from your hand, deal 12 damage to your opponent.
NAME:
Minotaur
ELEMENT:
Time
COST:
4 :time
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
5 | 5
TEXT:
If Minotaur is discarded from your hand, deal 15 damage to your opponent.
ART:
http://mikeely.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/minotaur.gif
IDEA:
plastiqe
NOTES:
Mirror Shield and the like can reflect the discarding damage.
SERIES:
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: Retribution on December 10, 2010, 02:39:48 am
It seems like a balanced card, but I don't understand the logic behind it's effect.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: Destiny on December 10, 2010, 02:40:07 am
Intresting idea. Though, I prefer playing cards than waiting to discard. :-\
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: plastiqe on December 10, 2010, 02:51:06 am
Intresting idea. Though, I prefer playing cards than waiting to discard. :-\
Doesn't everybody?  This guy is supposed to shine in a situation where you can't play your cards.. like if you're getting screwed by Discord.. or Silenced.. Earthquaked.. you name it.  Gives you a way to sting back at a denial deck.

Also useful for time because of the drawing power, you could intentionally fill your hand and then start bombing your opponent with these guys.. say if they had a shield that you couldn't get past by playing it.

And even if it's getting nerfed there is still Fractal.  Fill your hand with Minotaurs and then don't play them.

Should the creature be a little stronger, or the discard damage a little more?
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: OldTrees on December 10, 2010, 02:54:48 am
Why would losing the ability to summon a Minotaur deal damage to the opponent?

The card is balanced.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: AnonymousRevival on December 10, 2010, 07:35:45 am
I think :time creatures are more egyptian based. Except, for creatures that are really based on :time like fate egg.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: Nepycros on December 10, 2010, 01:46:39 pm
I think :time creatures are more egyptian based. Except, for creatures that are really based on :time like fate egg.
Ancient Egypt, Ancient Greece, it all flows in the same direction. Exact location for :time doesn't mean s***. It's all about the progression or manipulation of time.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: OldTrees on December 10, 2010, 02:07:52 pm
I agree that all of the ancient past and far out future is fair game to time.
So The Minotaur is fair game to the time traveling Time Elemental.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on December 10, 2010, 02:26:29 pm
Fractal Minotaur ftw :P
Does the damage get reflected by reflective shield btw? Could make a weird Nightmare + Reflective Shield + Minotaur (you either get rid of crucial cards, or damage yourself ;D).
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: kobisjeruk on December 10, 2010, 03:44:41 pm
once again fractal ruins an idea
thanks torbeef
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: OldTrees on December 10, 2010, 03:54:41 pm
Good point, at 3 turns worth of damage per discard, this card has abnormally large synergy with fractal. I suggest reducing it to 8 and 10 damage respectively.

But the question of why discarding a minotaur would harm the opponent still has not been answered.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: Nepycros on December 10, 2010, 03:55:27 pm
It could have the passive skill 'Vengeful'? ;)
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: Drobbit on December 10, 2010, 05:19:05 pm
you can do it inmortal to avoid fractal. I like the card.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: plastiqe on December 11, 2010, 07:15:09 pm
Thanks for all the feedback. : )

Yeah I think the Minotaur gets angry when you don't play him so he does damage out of spite.

I like the Nightmare/Reflective Shield combo so I'll add that.  Reflective Shield would be a good defense.

Is 12/15 damage per turn really that good with Fractal?  Considering you can only discard once per turn, and you'd have to not play anything so as to keep your hand full.  Maybe rather than immortal which would have to incur a cost increase, I could just add the passive ability "unique" (meaning un-fractalable).  If you can't fractal then perhaps I'd up the discarding damage, like 16 and 20?

Also I think the upped should have better stats, +1Hp perhaps?
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: Drobbit on December 11, 2010, 07:42:40 pm
As you say is a high cost to deal that damage. For the same price you can fractal other creatures and do more damage each turn and keep playing other cards.
But maybe the cost is a bit low. 4 :time for a 4/4 creature with an ability. You have the ability for free here so I recomend to rise the cost to 5: time for both upped and unupped.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: Nepycros on December 12, 2010, 02:00:51 am
As you say is a high cost to deal that damage. For the same price you can fractal other creatures and do more damage each turn and keep playing other cards.
But maybe the cost is a bit low. 4 :time for a 4/4 creature with an ability. You have the ability for free here so I recomend to rise the cost to 5: time for both upped and unupped.
Pffft, what would that achieve? If you intend to discard it, its cost doesn't mean anything in the first place. Not only that, but its ability affects nothing when it comes into the battlefield. So, you want us to raise the cost for a creature that can't use its ability once summoned, and yet whose cost doesn't even matter when you use the ability? That's redundant, and would serve absolutely no purpose.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: OldTrees on December 12, 2010, 02:24:42 am
Every card has three parts to its cost
Cost to draw [CoD]
Cost to play [CoP]
Cost to keep [CoK]

If an ability is only present while the card is around (Flooding) then it should be balanced against CoD+CoP+CoK
If an ability is present only after the card is played (Spark) then it should be balance against CoD+CoP
If an ability is present without having to play the card (Minotaur's discarded ability) then it should be balanced against CoD

Minotaur

Costs
CoD = 1 card slot in the deck + drawing that 1 card (+ 1500e when upgraded)
CoP = 4 :time
CoK = the opponent not caring enough/unable to destroy it

Abilities
Discarded damage (CoD only) = 12|15 damage
Stats (CoD + CoP) = 4|4 (5|5 upgraded)

since these are mutually exclusive abilities the two calculations are independant of eachother
The stats are on par with the norms for the costs incurred.
The discarded damage needs to be adjusted to be balanced with only the CoD (or find some way to increase CoD)
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: plastiqe on December 13, 2010, 10:43:46 pm
I'm gonna have to agree with Nepycros on the cost. 

In OldTrees example I find the summary of the card costs flawed.  You need not only to draw a Minotaur to trigger the discard ability, you need to discard it.  You can't voluntarily discard something when you have less than 8 cards in your hand, so having a full hand is another "cost" that you hane to consider when balancing the discard ability.  I'd say it's a fairly weak and very situational ability, so looking at cards like...

(http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/Mummy.png) (http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/Toadfish.png) (http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/SapphireCharger.png)

..I'm not upping the cost.  Compared to the above cards, Minotaur is balanced... if not underpowered especially considering the upgraded versions.

Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: OldTrees on December 13, 2010, 10:55:01 pm
I'm gonna have to agree with Nepycros on the cost. 

In OldTrees example I find the summary of the card costs flawed.  You need not only to draw a Minotaur to trigger the discard ability, you need to discard it.  You can't voluntarily discard something when you have less than 8 cards in your hand, so having a full hand is another "cost" that you hane to consider when balancing the discard ability.  I'd say it's a fairly weak and very situational ability, so looking at cards like...

..I'm not upping the cost.  Compared to the above cards, Minotaur is balanced... if not underpowered especially considering the upgraded versions.
True having a full hand is another cost I didn't include. (I felt it was an obvious one that would not require being said and could be solved at deck design levels) To be complete: CoD + CoP of the discard ability = CoD + Hand filling engines like Hourglass and Fractal.

I was providing the reasoning for why changing the casting cost would be foolish. Rather than adjust the casting cost you should adjust the damage dealt if and only if it even needs it. I was not claiming that the 12|15 damage was UP, OP or balanced. I was only providing reasons why the damage was what would be adjusted if need be and not the casting cost.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: The_Mormegil on December 14, 2010, 03:53:47 pm
I like the card, but I agree with OldTrees in that it actually has nothing to do with the Minotaur.

*starts to think about something that would deal damage to the opponent if discarded...*

BTW, I see Minotaur as a  :time creature with an  :aether skill, thinking about mazes... hmmm...

Random Idea:
(http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/tt172/Jopari_Mormegil/Minotaur-1.png)
(http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/tt172/Jopari_Mormegil/Minotaur.png)
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: plastiqe on December 15, 2010, 06:31:40 pm
Hey!  Why is the labyrinth made out of Aether?  No matter, go make your own Minotaur thread if you wanna submit that idea!! : P

Meh, not liking the Minotaur/Discard ability is more of a preference, so I guess ya'll can refrain from voting once it's in the crucible.

Submitted.  : )
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: The_Mormegil on December 15, 2010, 06:56:55 pm
Well, it was more a random thought / idea than else...
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: plastiqe on December 15, 2010, 07:00:57 pm
Well, it was more a random thought / idea than else...
I know I was just kidding that's why I put the " : P "

There are at least two other Minotaur type cards already, including one that also uses the same picture as this guy.  Feel free to create your random idea if you like Mormegil.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: Kuroaitou on December 19, 2010, 08:37:52 am
CURATOR COMMENT
-Replace the :time icon in the ELEMENT section with the word, 'Time'; :time means Time quanta, not the element Time. The two are not interchangeable

It's funny how badly several Darkness cards will get owned by Minotaur (Nightmare and Denial decks via Devourer only make this guy more likely to deal the 15). Fractal does indeed become a problem, but one would assume that you'd be playing the Minotaurs for more damage (unless a shield is up) rather than waiting that extra turn to discard it...

I love the idea though plastiqe. :) This definitely provides an even greater incentive for people to use Precognition (to look for these type of cards), and to also look out for scenarios where discarding becomes the advantage instead of the weakness.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: johannhowitzer on December 22, 2010, 11:07:03 pm
I dislike the discard-damage effect, but for a different reason - because it doesn't cost any quanta.  It's like Unstable Gas, but you can pack 6 of them in a deck and then all you have to do is play nothing for a couple turns and you get free 15 damage.  FREE, no quanta, no nothing.  Say you draw 2 Minotaurs at the start, and you play second... your first turn, you've dealt 15 damage without paying any quanta.  Second turn, same thing.  All in a mono deck... or even a deck that doesn't even have :time quanta at all.

If you would have to pay X (>0) :time quanta when discarding this in order to deal the damage, then I could see it being balanced.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on December 22, 2010, 11:10:05 pm
I dislike the discard-damage effect, but for a different reason - because it doesn't cost any quanta.  It's like Unstable Gas, but you can pack 6 of them in a deck and then all you have to do is play nothing for a couple turns and you get free 15 damage.  FREE, no quanta, no nothing.  Say you draw 2 Minotaurs at the start, and you play second... your first turn, you've dealt 15 damage without paying any quanta.  Second turn, same thing.  All in a mono deck... or even a deck that doesn't even have :time quanta at all.

If you would have to pay X (>0) :time quanta when discarding this in order to deal the damage, then I could see it being balanced.
But, but...

The very idea behind this card was to damage when there is no quanta available :P
So I don't think giving the discarding a quanta cost for this card is an option.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: johannhowitzer on December 22, 2010, 11:13:48 pm
Sure, it's a solid concept, but the problem is that it's import-able to ANY deck concept.  Life Rush?  Tack on a few Minotaurs, maybe you'll get lucky on the first draw and burst out some extra damage.  It's like Unstable Gas, but without the quantum cost, duo-deck requirement, or reflectability.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: plastiqe on December 23, 2010, 12:26:51 am
Yes you could put these in any deck, but to be able to discard you need a full hand.  In any deck where you won't have the time quanta to play Minotaurs, drawing them any time other than the start of the match means they're dead cards.  The risk/reward of diluting something like an upped life rush isn't worth it.

I think you underestimate the disadvantage you put yourself in by holding 8 cards in your hand.  Best case scenario, you've gone second and done 90 damage over six turns... while your opponent has had 6 unobstructed turns.  Life rush or any quick deck will have done at least as much damage in that time and gained position on the board.

p.s. the damage can be reflected by shields.

p.p.s. http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,20160.0.html
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: EmeraldTiger on March 02, 2011, 08:34:17 pm
This became ghost of the past?
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: Kuroaitou on March 02, 2011, 08:43:29 pm
This became ghost of the past?
Yes indeed. :)  http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,20160.0.html

Or more specifically, look at this post for details: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,20160.msg273461#msg273461
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: coinich on March 03, 2011, 02:44:45 am
Well congrats to plastiqe then!
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: Scaredgirl on March 03, 2011, 05:15:23 am
Cool idea and I'm happy it got picked. Zanz changing the theme was also a good move because Minotaur didn't make much sense.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: Opsinis on April 18, 2011, 08:55:27 pm
I like the Ghost of the Past more than Minotaur idea anyways. Nevertheless, cool idea! Congratz!
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: mega plini on April 23, 2011, 05:34:00 pm
this card is as unbalanced as can be. In a stall deck doing dammage by discarding cards is to good to be true.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: Nepycros on April 23, 2011, 05:46:39 pm
this card is as unbalanced as can be. In a stall deck doing dammage by discarding cards is to good to be true.
Please do a bit more research, my friend. This card will never get into the game, because it's being represented by Ghost of the Past.

To put it simply, Ghost of the Past IS this card, simply reworked. Zanzarino took the basic concept and turned it into what you see in the actual game. And, from your recent posts, you don't seem too savvy on the quanta balancing of cards in the forum. I suggest you do as I already asked, and actually research how things in this forum work.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: LAMA00619 on September 11, 2011, 07:16:33 pm
so let me get this straight,
you put 1 mini (o) taur (<-- minitaur = unupped, minotaur is upped?) on the field, fractal it and then discard them to get damage to the opponent, ... seems like theres a new false god comming :(
even better: if you also have electrum hourclass, you keep drawing cards and discard them at the same time. is it just me, or is this better then precognition in time-based hands?
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: Filly678 on September 17, 2011, 07:55:00 pm
so let me get this straight,
you put 1 mini (o) taur (<-- minitaur = unupped, minotaur is upped?) on the field, fractal it and then discard them to get damage to the opponent, ... seems like theres a new false god comming :(
even better: if you also have electrum hourclass, you keep drawing cards and discard them at the same time. is it just me, or is this better then precognition in time-based hands?
Learn to read.  :P This card was replaced by Ghost of the Past and is never going to be in the game. This is only mentioned because it's the inspiration for Ghost of the Past.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: Metahater on September 24, 2011, 07:20:46 pm
Heh, just browsing through and seeing this makes me smile. I've always wondered where the concept of GotP came from...
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: Sk1llsIll on February 11, 2012, 05:32:09 pm
15 dmg for skipping 1 turn is useless
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: Ikerpeta on April 14, 2012, 01:30:40 pm
lol its a great card 5/5 for 4 quanta is great, specialy for time element which does not have "regular monster" card like life does for example. And with the plus that u can deal 12 dmg if u are low of quanta and full of hourglases :) (which usualy happends). Its not a definitive card for time but a very interesting addition.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: Ilias22 on August 13, 2012, 10:16:02 am
I love greek mythology and this card is really intresting..if i have also fractal...it can become very powerful deck...Just think making atleast 12 attack per turn and..if you have also hurglass...It will be an intresting deck-card...
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: AnonymousRevival on August 13, 2012, 11:53:30 am
But the minotaur became GotP right?
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: ddevans96 on August 13, 2012, 11:54:33 am
But the minotaur became GotP right?

Yes, Zanz cited this as inspiration.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: aerendhil on October 24, 2012, 07:29:50 pm
why is it in reliquary  ?
I never saw it live
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: ddevans96 on October 24, 2012, 07:31:07 pm
why is it in reliquary  ?
I never saw it live

Compare this with the card Ghost of the Past. The game's developer stated that his inspiration for that card was Minotaur.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: lightmage5 on November 30, 2012, 08:54:57 pm
With the addition of this card there should be another card that forces you to discard some of your cards.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: OldTrees on December 01, 2012, 07:20:55 am
With the addition of this card there should be another card that forces you to discard some of your cards.
A modified version of this card was added (thus earning it its place in the Reliquary). That card was Ghost of the Past.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: Ningo67 on February 15, 2013, 07:15:44 pm
Very creative and fun card love it.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: legion_bre on April 25, 2013, 04:36:03 pm
Good point, at 3 turns worth of damage per discard, this card has abnormally large synergy with fractal. I suggest reducing it to 8 and 10 damage respectively.

But the question of why discarding a minotaur would harm the opponent still has not been answered.

You could change the name, but keep the stats and effect the same. An example would be "Time Bomb". That makes sense that when you discard it, damage is done to opponent and it certainly relates to the  :time element.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: Squidymon on November 22, 2013, 04:47:18 am
Months later. Here we are. All highly regretting the creation of this card. Why. WHY?!?
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: iancudorinmarian on November 22, 2013, 03:10:27 pm
Months later. Here we are. All highly regretting the creation of this card. Why. WHY?!?
I suppose you are talking about

I honestly don't regret it, I don't really use it and I don't have problems against Ghostmare.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: Squidymon on November 22, 2013, 09:23:24 pm
The deck irritates me. So. Much.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: Cool Porygon on November 24, 2013, 07:09:22 pm
Sounds like a legitimately awesome card! It's like a reverse Ghost of the Past, but better!
8.5/10 for art
9/10 for card idea
There will be a deck revolved around this card so fast!
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: Fippe94 on November 24, 2013, 07:16:04 pm
This was the inspiration for Ghost of the Past, so in a way it is already in game, and will not be added in this form.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: CrockettRocket on December 14, 2013, 11:21:31 pm
I approve of this 100%. Much better then ghost of the past. I hate ghost of the past. 6  :time for a 7/4 is good enough, doesnt need an ability.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: Fippe94 on December 15, 2013, 12:10:07 am
Did you even read my post that was right before yours...?
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: CrockettRocket on December 15, 2013, 12:33:12 am
Yes. But the ability is the exact opposite. No way is it already in game, minotaur is also lower cost. And has a 1:1 ratio between attack and cost.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: Fippe94 on December 15, 2013, 12:36:03 am
But it was this card idea that inspired Zanz to add GotP. This has been in reliquary for as long as GotP has been ingame, there are no plans to ever add this in the game, because GotP was added instead.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: Jyiber on December 15, 2013, 12:44:19 am
I think maybe he meant he'd have preferred this one. Honestly, having both would be cool.
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: CrockettRocket on December 15, 2013, 01:35:35 am
I think maybe he meant he'd have preferred this one. Honestly, having both would be cool.
I did highly prefer this one. I even asked for gotp to be nerfed. I would love for them both to be in the game. (What if I told you my mouse was named Curiosity? It would be one strong mouse to kill a cat!)
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: imperator83 on November 23, 2014, 12:39:39 pm
this is a good idea for a card, maybe i'll add more mythology cards, that will add a lot in this game
Title: Re: Minotaur | Minotaur
Post by: Chapuz on November 23, 2014, 01:01:24 pm
this is a good idea for a card, maybe i'll add more mythology cards, that will add a lot in this game
The cards on Reliquiary are the ones Zanzarino based to make the in-game cards. This card has been already introduced to the game, with a little big variation, it's Ghost of the Past!
blarg: