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Re: Minotaur | Minotaur http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17346.msg221101#msg221101
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2010, 05:19:05 pm »
you can do it inmortal to avoid fractal. I like the card.

Offline plastiqeTopic starter

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Re: Minotaur | Minotaur http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17346.msg222190#msg222190
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2010, 07:15:09 pm »
Thanks for all the feedback. : )

Yeah I think the Minotaur gets angry when you don't play him so he does damage out of spite.

I like the Nightmare/Reflective Shield combo so I'll add that.  Reflective Shield would be a good defense.

Is 12/15 damage per turn really that good with Fractal?  Considering you can only discard once per turn, and you'd have to not play anything so as to keep your hand full.  Maybe rather than immortal which would have to incur a cost increase, I could just add the passive ability "unique" (meaning un-fractalable).  If you can't fractal then perhaps I'd up the discarding damage, like 16 and 20?

Also I think the upped should have better stats, +1Hp perhaps?

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Re: Minotaur | Minotaur http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17346.msg222219#msg222219
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2010, 07:42:40 pm »
As you say is a high cost to deal that damage. For the same price you can fractal other creatures and do more damage each turn and keep playing other cards.
But maybe the cost is a bit low. 4 :time for a 4/4 creature with an ability. You have the ability for free here so I recomend to rise the cost to 5: time for both upped and unupped.

Offline Nepycros

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Re: Minotaur | Minotaur http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17346.msg222545#msg222545
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2010, 02:00:51 am »
As you say is a high cost to deal that damage. For the same price you can fractal other creatures and do more damage each turn and keep playing other cards.
But maybe the cost is a bit low. 4 :time for a 4/4 creature with an ability. You have the ability for free here so I recomend to rise the cost to 5: time for both upped and unupped.
Pffft, what would that achieve? If you intend to discard it, its cost doesn't mean anything in the first place. Not only that, but its ability affects nothing when it comes into the battlefield. So, you want us to raise the cost for a creature that can't use its ability once summoned, and yet whose cost doesn't even matter when you use the ability? That's redundant, and would serve absolutely no purpose.
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Re: Minotaur | Minotaur http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17346.msg222559#msg222559
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2010, 02:24:42 am »
Every card has three parts to its cost
Cost to draw [CoD]
Cost to play [CoP]
Cost to keep [CoK]

If an ability is only present while the card is around (Flooding) then it should be balanced against CoD+CoP+CoK
If an ability is present only after the card is played (Spark) then it should be balance against CoD+CoP
If an ability is present without having to play the card (Minotaur's discarded ability) then it should be balanced against CoD

Minotaur

Costs
CoD = 1 card slot in the deck + drawing that 1 card (+ 1500e when upgraded)
CoP = 4 :time
CoK = the opponent not caring enough/unable to destroy it

Abilities
Discarded damage (CoD only) = 12|15 damage
Stats (CoD + CoP) = 4|4 (5|5 upgraded)

since these are mutually exclusive abilities the two calculations are independant of eachother
The stats are on par with the norms for the costs incurred.
The discarded damage needs to be adjusted to be balanced with only the CoD (or find some way to increase CoD)
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Offline plastiqeTopic starter

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Re: Minotaur | Minotaur http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17346.msg224057#msg224057
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2010, 10:43:46 pm »
I'm gonna have to agree with Nepycros on the cost. 

In OldTrees example I find the summary of the card costs flawed.  You need not only to draw a Minotaur to trigger the discard ability, you need to discard it.  You can't voluntarily discard something when you have less than 8 cards in your hand, so having a full hand is another "cost" that you hane to consider when balancing the discard ability.  I'd say it's a fairly weak and very situational ability, so looking at cards like...



..I'm not upping the cost.  Compared to the above cards, Minotaur is balanced... if not underpowered especially considering the upgraded versions.


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Re: Minotaur | Minotaur http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17346.msg224064#msg224064
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2010, 10:55:01 pm »
I'm gonna have to agree with Nepycros on the cost. 

In OldTrees example I find the summary of the card costs flawed.  You need not only to draw a Minotaur to trigger the discard ability, you need to discard it.  You can't voluntarily discard something when you have less than 8 cards in your hand, so having a full hand is another "cost" that you hane to consider when balancing the discard ability.  I'd say it's a fairly weak and very situational ability, so looking at cards like...

..I'm not upping the cost.  Compared to the above cards, Minotaur is balanced... if not underpowered especially considering the upgraded versions.
True having a full hand is another cost I didn't include. (I felt it was an obvious one that would not require being said and could be solved at deck design levels) To be complete: CoD + CoP of the discard ability = CoD + Hand filling engines like Hourglass and Fractal.

I was providing the reasoning for why changing the casting cost would be foolish. Rather than adjust the casting cost you should adjust the damage dealt if and only if it even needs it. I was not claiming that the 12|15 damage was UP, OP or balanced. I was only providing reasons why the damage was what would be adjusted if need be and not the casting cost.
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Offline The_Mormegil

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Re: Minotaur | Minotaur http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17346.msg224594#msg224594
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2010, 03:53:47 pm »
I like the card, but I agree with OldTrees in that it actually has nothing to do with the Minotaur.

*starts to think about something that would deal damage to the opponent if discarded...*

BTW, I see Minotaur as a  :time creature with an  :aether skill, thinking about mazes... hmmm...

Random Idea:

[18:21:43] jmdt: elements is just math over top of a GUI
Kakerlake: I believe that there is no God as in something that can think by itself and does stuff that sounds way OP.

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Re: Minotaur | Minotaur http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17346.msg225427#msg225427
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2010, 06:31:40 pm »
Hey!  Why is the labyrinth made out of Aether?  No matter, go make your own Minotaur thread if you wanna submit that idea!! : P

Meh, not liking the Minotaur/Discard ability is more of a preference, so I guess ya'll can refrain from voting once it's in the crucible.

Submitted.  : )

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Re: Minotaur | Minotaur http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17346.msg225434#msg225434
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2010, 06:56:55 pm »
Well, it was more a random thought / idea than else...
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Re: Minotaur | Minotaur http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17346.msg225437#msg225437
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2010, 07:00:57 pm »
Well, it was more a random thought / idea than else...
I know I was just kidding that's why I put the " : P "

There are at least two other Minotaur type cards already, including one that also uses the same picture as this guy.  Feel free to create your random idea if you like Mormegil.

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Re: Minotaur | Minotaur http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17346.msg228083#msg228083
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2010, 08:37:52 am »
CURATOR COMMENT
-Replace the :time icon in the ELEMENT section with the word, 'Time'; :time means Time quanta, not the element Time. The two are not interchangeable

It's funny how badly several Darkness cards will get owned by Minotaur (Nightmare and Denial decks via Devourer only make this guy more likely to deal the 15). Fractal does indeed become a problem, but one would assume that you'd be playing the Minotaurs for more damage (unless a shield is up) rather than waiting that extra turn to discard it...

I love the idea though plastiqe. :) This definitely provides an even greater incentive for people to use Precognition (to look for these type of cards), and to also look out for scenarios where discarding becomes the advantage instead of the weakness.

 

anything
blarg: