Elements the Game Forum - Free Online Fantasy Card Game

Elements the Game => Card Ideas and Art => Level 4 - Reliquary => Topic started by: moomoose on May 08, 2012, 02:54:17 am

Title: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: moomoose on May 08, 2012, 02:54:17 am
(http://i.imgur.com/p0FTC.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/RL0hW.png)
NAME:
Graviton Salvager
ELEMENT:
Gravity
COST:
3 :gravity
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
3 | 4
TEXT:
Salvaging:
While Salvager is in play, your permanents will be returned to your hand when destroyed.
NAME:
Graviton Salvager
ELEMENT:
Gravity
COST:
3 :gravity
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
5 | 4
TEXT:
Salvaging:
While Salvager is in play, your permanents will be returned to your hand when destroyed.

ART:
hawanja http://freakmutantmonster.blogspot.com/2012/04/terkarot.html
IDEA:
moomoose
NOTES:
another protection idea, this softens the blow from PC.  example- the opponent uses EQ on your stack of towers, your 2 towers are put back into your hand, the third is overfill and goes to the top of your deck.  you are free to play the towers again.  works similarly if multiple PC spells are used in the same turn.


this does not apply to stolen permanents
permanents with durations (wings, dim shield, dissipation shield, sundial, etc) will only be salvaged if they are destroyed by a skill/spell/ability, not if their duration runs out.
bonewall is never salvageable.
SERIES:

Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: Rutarete on May 08, 2012, 02:57:15 am
Cool idea! Does bonewall count?
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: moomoose on May 08, 2012, 02:58:52 am
on grounds of practicality ill have to go with no
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: furballdn on May 08, 2012, 03:01:13 am
Very interesting idea! Cheap alright gravy creature? Anti PC? I like this! How the heck do you keep coming up with such awesome ideas?
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: moomoose on May 08, 2012, 03:03:06 am
im just about out, to be honest.
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: n00b on May 08, 2012, 03:04:35 am
I like.
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: furballdn on May 08, 2012, 03:19:23 am
Salvaging is active ability right?
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: moomoose on May 08, 2012, 03:49:37 am
yep
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: Drake_XIV on May 08, 2012, 03:56:01 am
The only thing I don't like about this is that it's cost-attack efficient (unupped).  But who cares, it's a great idea!
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: darkrobe on May 08, 2012, 05:18:52 am
I like. the game needs more interesting ways to protect permanents. scavenger +mitosis + feral bonds. whoot whoot
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: darkrobe on May 08, 2012, 05:20:52 am
im just about out, to be honest.
lol. i feel the same and  i havent put up nearly as many as you.
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: nilsieboy on May 08, 2012, 05:29:06 am
looks good, would be a great addition to the game (and gravy).
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: ARTHANASIOS on May 08, 2012, 10:05:52 am
Great idea, however it is a little OP, it needs a little higher cost or worse atk|hp statistics. And what about stealing? Is it going to return to your hand, or is it just stolen? I am asking this because, according to game mechanics, a stolen permanent is destoyed first and recreated right after on the other side of the field.
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: moomoose on May 08, 2012, 01:03:41 pm
read the notes, por favor
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: Poker Alho on May 08, 2012, 01:11:10 pm
the card is awesome but it makes the guard an even more useless card in  :gravity, as this would clearly replace him as a cheap critter with a very useful ability
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: moomoose on May 08, 2012, 01:18:02 pm
the guard is entirely useless as is and in line for a buff of some sort independent of this card idea.  graviton carrier is one idea which featured the guards to make them more used, but not more useful.

the statistics are in line with the cost of the card, its in the ballpark of what i had in mind.  i really dont feel like going through and doing minor adjustments to stats when zanz himself is clearly capable, and has a history of, changing the stats to put them where he feels they should be.  im just putting the mechanic out there.
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: Poker Alho on May 08, 2012, 02:11:03 pm
the guard is entirely useless as is and in line for a buff of some sort independent of this card idea.  graviton carrier is one idea which featured the guards to make them more used, but not more useful.

the statistics are in line with the cost of the card, its in the ballpark of what i had in mind.  i really dont feel like going through and doing minor adjustments to stats when zanz himself is clearly capable, and has a history of, changing the stats to put them where he feels they should be.  im just putting the mechanic out there.

i would love to see something close to your idea as a buff to the guard in the upcoming patch, solving 2 big issues: usefulness of the guard and the need of anti-PC tactics
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: ARTHANASIOS on May 08, 2012, 02:52:50 pm
read the notes, por favor

Yeah, I'm sorry, I completely missed the phrase where it declares that steals doesn't apply with this card. About Graviton Mercenary/Guard, I don't think it is completely useless, since it can make a few good combos with Adrenaline/Epinerphine, but he needs a buff for sure.
About Salvager, keep up the good work, Moomoose!
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: OdinVanguard on May 09, 2012, 08:57:56 am
I definitely like the idea of having an additional permanent protection mechanism, though I'm a little iffy on having them return directly to your hand I can see why it may be better than deck to keep it from being abused as a means of preventing deck out. I'm also a little worried that this will overshadow enchant artifact a bit. Maybe give it a high (but not 100%) chance of activating or else limit the number of times it can salvage each round.
Otherwise, I really like this one. It will make  :fire users work a little harder to shred through your permanents and help deal with shards of focus and earthquakes. Seems like a good idea to me.
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: Poker Alho on May 09, 2012, 05:03:33 pm
I definitely like the idea of having an additional permanent protection mechanism, though I'm a little iffy on having them return directly to your hand I can see why it may be better than deck to keep it from being abused as a means of preventing deck out. I'm also a little worried that this will overshadow enchant artifact a bit. Maybe give it a high (but not 100%) chance of activating or else limit the number of times it can salvage each round.
Otherwise, I really like this one. It will make  :fire users work a little harder to shred through your permanents and help deal with shards of focus and earthquakes. Seems like a good idea to me.

chance to miss is a random thing, thus it belongs more to  :entropy, but i like your idea of one salvager being able to only recover a permanent a turn, wich indirectly makes the player wanting more than just 1 copy of the card in the field. basically the more there are, the more protected you are

EDIT: maybe giving him an ability to protect a target permanent you control, a zero-cost ability (because PA only costs 1 and protects permantly) but make it burrowed, halving its attack when its protecting the permanent. just an idea
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: Absol on May 09, 2012, 05:13:48 pm
Does this stack? Will a single permanent destroyed gives 2 copies when 2 of these are on the field?
Imagine the possibility.  :earth/ :gravity deck. With Pulvy and stuff.
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: OdinVanguard on May 09, 2012, 06:42:09 pm

chance to miss is a random thing, thus it belongs more to  :entropy, but i like your idea of one salvager being able to only recover a permanent a turn, wich indirectly makes the player wanting more than just 1 copy of the card in the field. basically the more there are, the more protected you are

EDIT: maybe giving him an ability to protect a target permanent you control, a zero-cost ability (because PA only costs 1 and protects permantly) but make it burrowed, halving its attack when its protecting the permanent. just an idea
Yes, randomness is more of an entropy thing, but fate egg is random and purely  :time ... But the chance to fail is just an example. As long as a single salvager won't protect every permanent in your possession indefinitely it will be all good. That's my main concern, so anything to that effect works for me.
Plus, like you said, it will encourage the player to have out more than one at a time.
So maybe something like:
"Salvaging:
Return permanents you own to your hand if destroyed, up to N times per a turn."
Where N can be set to whatever the author / community thinks will make it well balanced.
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: moomoose on May 09, 2012, 09:01:27 pm
i probably will not be altering the mechanic.  it already has built in balancing mechanics- you have to pay to play the permanents again, the permanents being added to your hand can prevent your next draw, the permanents added to your hand can be added to the top of your deck and slow you similarly to rewind, and you very well may end up discarding the permanent anyway after your hand fills up if you are unable to pay to play the permanent again.  this card effectively turns permanent removal into permanent rewind, with the modification that they enter your hand before overflowing into your deck.
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: storyteller on May 09, 2012, 10:50:03 pm
I think if your hand is full they should be lost, or just go straight to your deck.
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: Drake_XIV on May 09, 2012, 11:02:42 pm
I think if your hand is full they should be lost, or just go straight to your deck.

example- the opponent uses EQ on your stack of towers, your 2 towers are put back into your hand, the third is overfill and goes to the top of your deck.
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: storyteller on May 10, 2012, 03:07:28 am
no I mean if your hand is full, you should lose those cards OR instead of going to your hand at all, they should go to your deck. I do not think you should have an all powerful permanent saver that sends them to your hand and then your deck if it is full. One or the other, not both.
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: Drake_XIV on May 10, 2012, 03:19:53 am
It's not all-powerful.  You still have to pay to replay them.  Also consider that it is somewhat detrimental as it clogs up your hand and eventually your deck, so you might not be able to draw anything useful for a long time.
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: storyteller on May 10, 2012, 04:10:44 am
its pretty powerful, and how does it work as an active ability? do you target permanents to protect it damaged?
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: OdinVanguard on May 10, 2012, 09:26:53 pm
Oh gods no! I just thought of the potential for some serious abuses...

This + pulvy + Dim shield... or a butterfly effect equivalent
Or perhaps worse... sundial!

As if dim shield spam wasn't annoying enough already, now it won't even be limited to 18 turns. Sundial stall will become viable too and will be even more tedious. At least with dim shield you can use momentum (or now SoW and SoF) to get around it. Put them both together and you're in for a long tedious game. In short, infinite stall decks become viable.

I still think its a cool card concept, but 30+ round games would get old very fast.
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: neuroleptics on May 10, 2012, 09:29:40 pm
Haha...this sound fun...counter SoFocus?? But i think the quanta cost should be raised :)
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: Pineapple on May 10, 2012, 09:40:15 pm
I also think it's a bit too powerful because there is no counter (except denial) for a deck based on abusing PC, not even PC (the irony).
Usually, I would advise to drop the cost and nerf the ability, but the cost already seems pretty lenient as is. Maybe increase HP instead dropping the cost?
Anyways, my suggested nerf would be to either limit the ability to once/twice per game, once per turn, or only during the opponent's turn. You could also weaken the ability by reducing the %chance of salvaging from the current 100%, but RNG sucks.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: Poker Alho on May 10, 2012, 09:50:03 pm
I also think it's a bit too powerful because there is no counter (except denial) for a deck based on abusing PC, not even PC (the irony).
Usually, I would advise to drop the cost and nerf the ability, but the cost already seems pretty lenient as is. Maybe increase HP instead dropping the cost?
Anyways, my suggested nerf would be to either limit the ability to once/twice per game, once per turn, or only during the opponent's turn. You could also weaken the ability by reducing the %chance of salvaging from the current 100%, but RNG sucks.

Thoughts?

you completely forgot to mention that CC was a counter to that PC abuse, if it were thru this card, wich makes it less overpowered than you would think. Still, the skill should be limited to the opponent's turn to avoid that kind of exploit like you said
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: neuroleptics on May 10, 2012, 09:51:17 pm
I also think it's a bit too powerful because there is no counter (except denial) for a deck based on abusing PC, not even PC (the irony).
Usually, I would advise to drop the cost and nerf the ability, but the cost already seems pretty lenient as is. Maybe increase HP instead dropping the cost?
Anyways, my suggested nerf would be to either limit the ability to once/twice per game, once per turn, or only during the opponent's turn. You could also weaken the ability by reducing the %chance of salvaging from the current 100%, but RNG sucks.

Thoughts?

agreed, and the card should immediately be discarded after the destroyed permanent return to hand. (meaning that the creature sacrifice itself to gain the permanent back)
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: OdinVanguard on May 10, 2012, 10:22:05 pm
I also think it's a bit too powerful because there is no counter (except denial) for a deck based on abusing PC, not even PC (the irony).
Usually, I would advise to drop the cost and nerf the ability, but the cost already seems pretty lenient as is. Maybe increase HP instead dropping the cost?
Anyways, my suggested nerf would be to either limit the ability to once/twice per game, once per turn, or only during the opponent's turn. You could also weaken the ability by reducing the %chance of salvaging from the current 100%, but RNG sucks.

Thoughts?

you completely forgot to mention that CC was a counter to that PC abuse, if it were thru this card, wich makes it less overpowered than you would think. Still, the skill should be limited to the opponent's turn to avoid that kind of exploit like you said
I agree, limiting to opponents turn would probably do the trick.
Limiting to once a turn may work ok too ... abuse would still be possible, but at least would be easier to counter.
As long as people can't spam sundials and dim. shields indefinitely it should be just fine. Eighteen rounds of dim shield is annoying enough already... lol
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: moomoose on May 10, 2012, 11:58:50 pm
OK that is a good point about destroying your own permanents, the two solutions i would be willing to consider would be only being triggered on your opponents turn, or simply have it not apply to permanents that have durations.
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: OdinVanguard on May 11, 2012, 04:13:22 pm
Either one works for me. Other than that one issue though, it looks like a cool card. I look forward to seeing it in crucible.
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: Drake_XIV on December 21, 2012, 07:15:50 pm
Bumping, considering Zanz's plans for this patch.  Hopefully.
Title: Re: Graviton Salvager | Graviton Salvager
Post by: eaglgenes101 on January 06, 2013, 04:04:15 am
*Poke* Needs to be moved to Reliquary.
blarg: