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Offline SpielkindTopic starter

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(Water Strat) Spielkind 3 - (Darkness SB) Absol (sub by bogtro) 2 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46854.msg1042052#msg1042052
« on: February 13, 2013, 08:33:01 pm »
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4vh 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 52o 52o 52o 55q 590 590 590 590 595 5c1 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5ia 5ib 5ib 5ic 5ie 5ig 5ig 5io 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 7dm 7i6 7n0 8pm


first thx to absol letting sub him... we tried to get this match, but 30mins of no connection was a bit hard.... so bogtro would sub, thx for this!

1st:
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4vh 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 55q 590 590 590 590 595 5c1 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5ib 5ic 5ie 5ig 5ig 5io 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 7dm 7i6 8pm

nice hand with 3 novas and his 3 rts making no really matter! won with exatdamage plus 1 before him. 1:0

2nd:
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4vh 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 590 590 590 590 595 5c1 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5ib 5ib 5ic 5ie 5ig 5ig 5io 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 7dm 7i6 8pm

he had a perfect hand and me 1pillar and no nova.... nothing i could do. 1:1

3rd, 4th and 5th:
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4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 52o 52o 590 590 590 590 595 5c1 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5ia 5ib 5ib 5ic 5ie 5io 5jm 5jm 5jm 7dm 7i6 7n0 8pm

game started, won toss and he pressed spacebar at 5seconds. second turn again, not playing any card. third turn cpu takes control and played 1 rt on my toad with the 2 time quanta and 1 darkness pend. that game played through no real matter, cause i had 2 novas with explo in hand, so he had no quanta till round 7. won easily.

here i lost connection, so i was conferring with my team to let WM´s rule this match.

4th: won due to good damage. 2:1
5th: he won because of dumb qunata in my side...

he asked for a conditionall cause if i will win this, we dont need a ruling by WM´s. if he, we will wait for a ruling.
he again, like the game he obvious lost hab 1 pend... but now i had no explo to stall him, so he could get more and more quanta and in the end had no matter to win me.


now, WM´s ruled this game he lost connection for a win of mine, so thx for this, cause its the right ruling i guess.
thx to bogtro for those games!
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 08:47:18 pm by Spielkind »
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Offline bogtro

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Re: (Water Strat) Spielkind 3 - (Darkness SB) Absol (sub by bogtro) 2 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46854.msg1042053#msg1042053
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2013, 08:34:04 pm »
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Game 1 [LOSS]: This draw was shockingly bad. 1 NM in many many cards, another NM at any point would have won game. Also only drew 1 pend for the first ~14 cards.
Game 2 [WIN]: This draw was shockingly amazing. Every time I needed something, pulled a Blonde, yelled at computer, got it. Easily won in perfect ghostmare style.
Game 3 [DIDN'T GET IN, RULED LOSS]: Started to search, didn't get in, then disconnected from everything. Apparently Spiel started playing against AI which either drew no quanta for several turns or the game continued on in the background of my computer, where I drew quanta but couldn't play it because obviously I wasn't clicking on anything. Spiel evidently beat AI (I don't know if he has proof of this, WMs ruled without receiving proof), so he was given win.
Game 4 [WIN]: I don't actually remember what happened here, but I won somehow.
Game 5 [LOSS]: No RTs all game (~20 cards). Easily outrushed.
Conditional Game 6 [WIN, BUT DOESN'T MATTER]: 1 Pend start, had to discard early, but easily won anyway as I actually drew RTs. This was actually a worse draw then the one Spiel claims my AI got.

So we end at 3-2 for Spiel.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 08:44:03 pm by bogtro »
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Re: (Water Strat) Spielkind 3 - (Darkness SB) Absol (sub by bogtro) 2 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46854.msg1042056#msg1042056
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2013, 08:46:24 pm »
Game 3 [DIDN'T GET IN, RULED LOSS]: Started to search, didn't get in, then disconnected from everything. Apparently Spiel started playing against AI which either drew no quanta for several turns or the game continued on in the background of my computer, where I drew quanta but couldn't play it because obviously I wasn't clicking on anything. Spiel evidently beat AI (I don't know if he has proof of this, WMs ruled without receiving proof), so he was given win.

Seems legit.

In no situation should this be a win for either side, especially without a SS...Disappointed.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 08:49:07 pm by ddevans96 »
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Re: (Water Strat) Spielkind 3 - (Darkness SB) Absol (sub by bogtro) 2 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46854.msg1042086#msg1042086
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2013, 10:37:19 pm »
unnoficial rules of WM , in doubt, make darkness lose. Everytime.
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Offline 10 men

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Re: (Water Strat) Spielkind 3 - (Darkness SB) Absol (sub by bogtro) 2 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46854.msg1042087#msg1042087
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2013, 10:38:05 pm »
game started, won toss and he pressed spacebar at 5seconds. second turn again, not playing any card. third turn cpu takes control and played 1 rt on my toad with the 2 time quanta and 1 darkness pend. that game played through no real matter, cause i had 2 novas with explo in hand, so he had no quanta till round 7. won easily.

here i lost connection, so i was conferring with my team to let WM´s rule this match.

Game 3 [DIDN'T GET IN, RULED LOSS]: Started to search, didn't get in, then disconnected from everything. Apparently Spiel started playing against AI which either drew no quanta for several turns or the game continued on in the background of my computer, where I drew quanta but couldn't play it because obviously I wasn't clicking on anything. Spiel evidently beat AI (I don't know if he has proof of this, WMs ruled without receiving proof), so he was given win.

Yea this sometimes happens, compare here. It is quite rare, I've only observed it a handful of times, always in other player's games, after I made that post almost two years ago, but both player's descriptions check out quite accurately.
(Meaning it should definitely be a replay of course.)
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Offline Helston

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Re: (Water Strat) Spielkind 3 - (Darkness SB) Absol (sub by bogtro) 2 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46854.msg1042105#msg1042105
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2013, 11:30:14 pm »
The following is what appears to have happened:

  • bogtro and Spielkind begin searching for their third duel.
  • Spielkind successfully enters the duel.
  • bogtro loses his Internet connection, potentially without entering the duel.
  • Spielkind takes screenshots throughout the match, and beats bogtro's AI.

There's no specific rule for this situation in War, however because it is an issue of joining and disconnecting to the duel, I've referred to the PvP league rules:

Spoiler for failure to join:
If one of the two players never gets in the game, replay the match with the same decks.

Spoiler for disconnecting:
Losing access to the game during a match (refreshing the tab, clicking on ad that isn't a popup type, closing the tab/window/browser/computer, power outage, pet elephant stepping on your computer ect) counts as a loss (a win for your opponent). You only lose 1 game through this, not the match, unless it happens more than once. (If your pet dinosaur steps on your computer during game 1, your opponent is at 1-0. If you get another computer, start game 2 and your pet dinosaur decides to eat your sector cable, your opponent is at 2-0 and won the match.)

If bogtro failed to connect, then a replay is necessary. If he did successfully connect only to immediately disconnect, the win should be awarded to Spielkind.

The problem is that there is no way to distinguish between the two. bogtro claims to have disconnected prior to joining, and thus it becomes a question of bogtro's character. While I don't distrust bogtro's claim that he never joined the match, ruling for a replay would then create problems if the player in question isn't very trustworthy.

At least once in the past (here) a similar situation has happened, however the ruling was for a replay. This was taken into consideration before this opposing ruling was made.

Because it was clear that bogtro had disconnected, it was not necessary for Spielkind to have beaten bogtro's AI, however he managed to regardless.

To avoid ambiguity in the future, and because it remains impossible to determine whether bogtro made it into the duel, it was ruled that he would lose that particular duel.



Finally, I would like to apologise for the way I initially handled the ruling. I made it without looking at Spiel's screenshots, which was a mistake. I did take my time to consider the situation, including some evidence that the game had been played, as well as that previous ruling, but I still should have looked at his screenshot. However, the screenshots do show bogtro being replaced on his third turn (although at a very low quality) and Spiel winning the game, all in a manner which still leaves it ambiguous as to what happened to bogtro. For this reason the ruling will stand.
[15:02:07] Jocko [»] Helston: You killed a bunch of bunnies with nuclear weapons

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Re: (Water Strat) Spielkind 3 - (Darkness SB) Absol (sub by bogtro) 2 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46854.msg1042109#msg1042109
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2013, 11:39:45 pm »
The following is what appears to have happened:

  • bogtro and Spielkind begin searching for their third duel.
  • Spielkind successfully enters the duel.
  • bogtro loses his Internet connection, potentially without entering the duel.
  • Spielkind takes screenshots throughout the match, and beats bogtro's AI.

There's no specific rule for this situation in War, however because it is an issue of joining and disconnecting to the duel, I've referred to the PvP league rules:

Spoiler for failure to join:
If one of the two players never gets in the game, replay the match with the same decks.

Spoiler for disconnecting:
Losing access to the game during a match (refreshing the tab, clicking on ad that isn't a popup type, closing the tab/window/browser/computer, power outage, pet elephant stepping on your computer ect) counts as a loss (a win for your opponent). You only lose 1 game through this, not the match, unless it happens more than once. (If your pet dinosaur steps on your computer during game 1, your opponent is at 1-0. If you get another computer, start game 2 and your pet dinosaur decides to eat your sector cable, your opponent is at 2-0 and won the match.)

If bogtro failed to connect, then a replay is necessary. If he did successfully connect only to immediately disconnect, the win should be awarded to Spielkind.

The problem is that there is no way to distinguish between the two. bogtro claims to have disconnected prior to joining, and thus it becomes a question of bogtro's character. While I don't distrust bogtro's claim that he never joined the match, ruling for a replay would then create problems if the player in question isn't very trustworthy.

At least once in the past (here) a similar situation has happened, however the ruling was for a replay. This was taken into consideration before this opposing ruling was made.

Because it was clear that bogtro had disconnected, it was not necessary for Spielkind to have beaten bogtro's AI, however he managed to regardless.

To avoid ambiguity in the future, and because it remains impossible to determine whether bogtro made it into the duel, it was ruled that he would lose that particular duel.



Finally, I would like to apologise for the way I initially handled the ruling. I made it without looking at Spiel's screenshots, which was a mistake. I did take my time to consider the situation, including some evidence that the game had been played, as well as that previous ruling, but I still should have looked at his screenshot. However, the screenshots do show bogtro being replaced on his third turn (although at a very low quality) and Spiel winning the game, all in a manner which still leaves it ambiguous as to what happened to bogtro. For this reason the ruling will stand.

To make long story short, it happened only once in the past, the uling was declared replay, and you decide to go against it and declare a loss this time?
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Offline Helston

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Re: (Water Strat) Spielkind 3 - (Darkness SB) Absol (sub by bogtro) 2 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46854.msg1042113#msg1042113
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2013, 11:47:45 pm »
To make long story short, it happened only once in the past, the uling was declared replay, and you decide to go against it and declare a loss this time?

Maybe not only once, but that the most recent and it's from War #3. Also, yes.

I really need to cut down on number of Walls of Text I post.
[15:02:07] Jocko [»] Helston: You killed a bunch of bunnies with nuclear weapons

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Re: (Water Strat) Spielkind 3 - (Darkness SB) Absol (sub by bogtro) 2 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46854.msg1042115#msg1042115
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2013, 11:49:20 pm »
so you're agreeing that makes WM ruling inconsistent?
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Offline bogtro

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Re: (Water Strat) Spielkind 3 - (Darkness SB) Absol (sub by bogtro) 2 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46854.msg1042119#msg1042119
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2013, 12:09:21 am »
A PvP duel is defined as a match between 2 players. Said duel follows these steps:

1) The players search for the duel
2) The players enter the duel
2.1) If one player enters the duel and the other player does not, the player who has entered the duel leaves and returns to 1.
3) The players play out the duel
3.1) If a desync error occurs sufficiently early that playing it out against the AI is not useful, return to 1.
3.2) If a desync error occurs when playing it out against the AI is useful, both players play out against the AI.
3.2.1) If both players defeat the AI, return to 1.
3.2.2) If one player defeats the AI and the other does not, the player defeating the AI is awarded the win.
3.3) If a player accidentally or otherwise leaves the duel after it begins, that player is awarded a loss.
4) The winner of the duel wins the duel.

The crux of the issue is thus at what point the internet failed. If the internet failed before the duel began, this falls under 2.1 and the game should be replayed. If it happened during the duel, it falls under 3.3 and the game is a win. These rulings are consistent with the definition of a PvP duel (between 2 players).

Let us examine the first screenshot that Spielkind took:

http://imageshack.us/f/834/bogtro1.gif/

a) This is a screenshot of remarkably poor quality. It is not clear whether this is even against me. However, we can assume such since the deck was correct.
b) This is a screenshot that clearly shows the first turn, with Spielkind winning the toss.
c) The timer is about to expire, clearly implying that I was not in the game at the time.

Let us examine the second screenshot that Spielkind took:

http://imageshack.us/a/img210/4899/bogtro11.gif

a) This is a screenshot of remarkably poor quality. It is not clear whether this is even against me. However, we can assume such since the deck was correct.
b) This screenshot shows the turn before Spielkind won.
c) You can see there is no longer a timer, implying that AI took over.

So the course of events was clear. Spielkind entered the game, watched my time run out, and the AI took over. This is the definition of not being in the game.

Therefore, I was not in the game when my internet failed. This is agreed upon by Helston in very clear terms, and quite probably by Spielkind as well. How this is an unclear situation is beyond me if ALL evidence points to me not being in and everyone agrees that I was not in (even non-interested third parties have commented on this). However, the ruling was apparently based on a quote by RavingRabbid:

"NEIGHBORS... no"
"This is either a 0 pend draw or..."
"a 0 pend draw"

This apparently implied to the WMs that awarding a win was in order.

This is not the first time this situation has occurred. It has occurred on at least two previous occasions in War, both of which were ruled replays. It has additionally apparently occurred several times in non-War PvP, with the ruling again being replays. With this ruling, far from removing ambiguity, we have confused the issue for all future times this situation occurs. There is now precedent for both a replay and awarding a win (though, fortunately, more for a replay)

How the ruling was achieved is also slightly disappointing (and already addressed by Helston). The ruling was made without any sort of screenshot proof whatsoever (these screenshots were sent after the ruling was made), and the WMs did not apparently seek input from either player (they possibly may have spoken to Spielkind, but the implication is that they did not). The screenshots that were eventually provided were of poor quality and barely readable. They hardly even count. Effectively, the WMs ruling was based on no evidence, no real account of what had happened, and no investigation of precedent. It would have been more fair to flip a coin.
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Offline inthisroom

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Re: (Water Strat) Spielkind 3 - (Darkness SB) Absol (sub by bogtro) 2 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46854.msg1042128#msg1042128
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2013, 12:45:03 am »
Curious decision indeed, lucky I wasn't on the losing end of that one because I wouldn't have taken it very well.

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Re: (Water Strat) Spielkind 3 - (Darkness SB) Absol (sub by bogtro) 2 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46854.msg1042130#msg1042130
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2013, 12:49:43 am »
Curious decision indeed, lucky I wasn't on the losing end of that one because I wouldn't have taken it very well.

You could have been if i asked a WM ruling instead of calling it a replay
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