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Offline ZephyrPhantomTopic starter

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Despairing Geist | Vengeful Geist https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44900.msg1018639#msg1018639
« on: November 30, 2012, 04:35:41 am »
NAME:
Despairing Geist
ELEMENT:
Death
COST:
3 :death
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
0 | 6
TEXT:
Sorrow :  When a card is destroyed, your opponent loses 4 Max HP.
NAME:
Vengeful Geist
ELEMENT:
Death
COST:
3 :death
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
0 | 7
TEXT:
Sorrow
:death :death : Sacrifice a card you control.

ART:
Moomoose : Source 1 Source 2
IDEA:
Zblader
NOTES:
A Death card that can become an effective killer.... if you keep providing things to kill, that is.

The upped's ability may seem odd at first, but considering that this is :death , it allows you to get death triggers as needed while triggering its own ability in the process. It can also clear the field of 'unnecessary' creatures like Malignant Cells and Antimattered creatures. Sacrificing a card will take out the whole stack, so you should avoid targeting a Bone Wall, Pillars, or Shards.

Don't think they're angry enough? Hit them with Rage Pots. ;)

Sorrow is Passive.
SERIES:


Spoiler for Hidden:
NAME:
Despairing Geist
ELEMENT:
Death
COST:
3 :death
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
0 | 6
TEXT:
Sorrow :  When a card is destroyed, your opponent loses 4 Max HP.
NAME:
Vengeful Geist
ELEMENT:
Death
COST:
3 :death
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
0 | 7
TEXT:
Sorrow
:death :death : Destroy a card you control.

ART:
Moomoose :
Source 1
Source 2
IDEA:
Zblader
NOTES:
A Death card that can become an effective killer.... if you keep providing things to kill, that is.

The upped's ability may seem odd at first, but considering that this is :death , it allows you to get death triggers as needed while triggering its own ability in the process. It can also clear the field of 'unnecessary' creatures like Malignant Cells and Antimattered creatures.

Don't think they're angry enough? Hit them with Rage Pots. ;)
SERIES:

« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 06:10:15 pm by Zblader »

Offline OdinVanguard

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Re: Despairing Geist | Vengeful Geist https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44900.msg1018648#msg1018648
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2012, 05:52:54 am »
Scary thought if powered with skelly cats...
I like that the upped and unupped do differing yet complementary things. Always refreshing from the general trend of simply doing the same thing better or with more hp / attack.
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Offline Rutarete

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Re: Despairing Geist | Vengeful Geist https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44900.msg1018651#msg1018651
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2012, 06:11:32 am »
I liked that this won't be used in an FG's deck, but I even more like that to make the best use you need both upped and unupped! It limits the copies, but is cool.
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Offline Anarook

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Re: Despairing Geist | Vengeful Geist https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44900.msg1018697#msg1018697
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2012, 06:10:42 pm »
Umm, I think you guys are missing something, the upped has the effect of the unupped and an additional ability with a cost...
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Offline dragonsdemesne

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Re: Despairing Geist | Vengeful Geist https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44900.msg1018704#msg1018704
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2012, 06:37:39 pm »
I'm suddenly having visions of the mass carnage using firestorm against a field of cells...  or comboing with shard of focus to deal 16 damage (3 permanents + the shard).  Or even comboing this with bone wall, and losing 1 bone shield to do 4 damage.  Also, does this stack?  If it did, I think it would be really overpowered, and is possibly borderline overpowered already.

Offline Fippe94

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Re: Despairing Geist | Vengeful Geist https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44900.msg1018711#msg1018711
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2012, 07:11:42 pm »
I'm pretty sure the whole bone wall stack counts as one card. Otherwise that combo would be way too OP. This + bonewall = At least 28 damage and probably more if you plan for it.
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Offline OdinVanguard

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Re: Despairing Geist | Vengeful Geist https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44900.msg1018714#msg1018714
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2012, 07:19:50 pm »
An easy way around this would be to change the unupped versions wording so that it only triggers for cards its owner controls... bonewall would still need to be expempt of course...
Sparks would also need to be exempt to limit abuse in sparktal decks.
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Offline ZephyrPhantomTopic starter

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Re: Despairing Geist | Vengeful Geist https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44900.msg1018896#msg1018896
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2012, 06:12:23 pm »
Changed upped ability from 'Destroy' to 'Sacrifice'.  (Destroy, such as Explosion, only destroys the top card of any stack. Sacrifice treats the target stack as if it's one card.)

Offline AvusXIV

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Re: Despairing Geist | Vengeful Geist https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44900.msg1019063#msg1019063
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2012, 03:33:11 pm »
Even though it makes sense that a Geist is difficult to get rid of, I would give 0|4 and 0|5 at the most so that it can be CCed in a fair way.

With 0|6 it doesn't just survive a Thunderbolt but even dodges an upped Oty by 2def, and that's just unupped. The upped one can even survive a double Fire Bolt, which, compared to almost all the other creatures, is really really strong...

About the idea of the card: Besides the fact that, as a native German speaker, I like the use of *Geist*, I even more like the mechanic of the card. The art is nicely done as well :)
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 03:35:05 pm by AvusXIV »
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Offline OdinVanguard

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Re: Despairing Geist | Vengeful Geist https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44900.msg1019201#msg1019201
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2012, 07:20:41 am »
Even though it makes sense that a Geist is difficult to get rid of, I would give 0|4 and 0|5 at the most so that it can be CCed in a fair way.

With 0|6 it doesn't just survive a Thunderbolt but even dodges an upped Oty by 2def, and that's just unupped. The upped one can even survive a double Fire Bolt, which, compared to almost all the other creatures, is really really strong...

About the idea of the card: Besides the fact that, as a native German speaker, I like the use of *Geist*, I even more like the mechanic of the card. The art is nicely done as well :)
Considering their abilities in as well, I think the upped one is less of a threat since its less global in nature. Note that having creatures that can't be one-shotted by lightnening, even unupped, isn't that uncommon.

Steam machines, for instance, are very hard to kill. They aren't much more expensive either.

Whether or not this fits :death element is a different story though.

Death seems to favor moderate to high damage but only low to moderate hitpoints. Thus far, nothing in the :death element breaks 5 hp when cast (vulture can exceed this, but starts quite small). Even the dragon (typically the toughest creature in an element) only has five hp.

One way to get around this would be to give it lower hp (maybe 4 and 6) and a passive damage resistance... e.g. something like:
"Ethereal: May resist damage" or "Ghost: Dampens spell damage" etc.  (you could define the scheme in the notes)

At any rate, considering the lack of attack and relatively defensive abilities, the high HP is probably not a big deal balance wise.

This may be useful in looking at HP vs. cost balance
Cost theory, focus on HP - Thread

unupped:
attack = 0 -> 0
hp = 6 -> 3
skill = ? (I would say most would agree on something between 0 and 2... lets say 1 for now to get going)
Element bonuse (none for :death)
So: 0+3 +1= 4 ...

upped:
attack = 0 ->0
hp = 7 -> 3
skill = ? (lets say 1 again for now)
Elemental bonus = 0
Upped bonus = -2
So: 0 + 3 + 1 -2 = 2

So the unupped is probably a little too strong, whereas the upped version is slightly too weak.

My suggestion is to drop the unupped version hp to 4 and bump the upped version to 8 hp (assuming the cost is to remain at 3 :death )

As a parting note, the above analysis is contingent upon the weight given to the abilities. I'm not sure where to begin on that, so its a good point for discussion.

Hope this helps move the discussion / card development forward.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 07:23:58 am by OdinVanguard »
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Offline ZephyrPhantomTopic starter

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Re: Despairing Geist | Vengeful Geist https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44900.msg1019607#msg1019607
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2012, 09:55:32 pm »
The reason I gave the creature a high HP was to give synergy with Rage Potion to further the theme of a vengeful spirit.

The ability will always require another card to trigger and pretty much behaves like a standard attack with a few extra benefits (see Psion) when it works, so I don't think Sorrow with 4 HP as the 'damage' value is too overly powerful unless your opponent is destruction focused (This card becomes useless against decks that use other types of control like Freeze or Rewind since nothing will be killed. On the other hand I feel a sacrifice engine ability + Sorrow is enough for a +1 as you indicated in the balance formula). My other model of balance was Guardian Angel, which uses a quantum cost to heal creature HP (as opposed to Geist using additional cards as a 'cost' to damage the opponent.)

(Sidenote : Ajit's theory is unfinished and may have some balance discrepancies.)



Offline OdinVanguard

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Re: Despairing Geist | Vengeful Geist https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44900.msg1019626#msg1019626
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2012, 11:28:11 pm »
The reason I gave the creature a high HP was to give synergy with Rage Potion to further the theme of a vengeful spirit.

The ability will always require another card to trigger and pretty much behaves like a standard attack with a few extra benefits (see Psion) when it works, so I don't think Sorrow with 4 HP as the 'damage' value is too overly powerful unless your opponent is destruction focused (This card becomes useless against decks that use other types of control like Freeze or Rewind since nothing will be killed. On the other hand I feel a sacrifice engine ability + Sorrow is enough for a +1 as you indicated in the balance formula). My other model of balance was Guardian Angel, which uses a quantum cost to heal creature HP (as opposed to Geist using additional cards as a 'cost' to damage the opponent.)

(Sidenote : Ajit's theory is unfinished and may have some balance discrepancies.)
Giving the card high HP isn't terribly unreasonable, though it is a little unusual given the relatively low HP  totals for most other :death cards. I just think the cost 3 :death is a little on the low side for the unupped version.

The upped version should be fine as is though, or could even stand a slight bump.

My only other issues are

1) spark-tal abuse.
5 sparks + 1 of these = 20 max HP drain... This is the max HP equivalent of unstable gas... Thats going to give spark-tal some serious teeth... especially if multiple geists are present. Given the current cost of 3 :death , the whole combo can easily be powered off of a :death mark and aether pillars.

2) Nova abuse... The upped version can eat the singularities.

3) Kitty-boneyard-Geist -> 1 :entropy + 2 :death for 8 max hp drain.

The spark-tal abuse is probably the biggest issue though. The others probably aren't heavily OP, but they are something to consider for card cost balance purposes.

Other than that I really like this card. Particularly the upped version. The :death is need of a way to power its death effects efficiently. This card could help provide that nicely.
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