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Offline OldTrees

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Re: PROJECT : The 14th Element [Discussion - A Trinity?] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43487.msg1015306#msg1015306
« Reply #120 on: November 13, 2012, 04:55:55 am »
Ok. As of the poll a few pages back we are going to start on the Wood vs Metal project. Unlike the 13th element thread, we are going to design 2 factions this time rather than 1 element. This is to respect the issue that Wood and Metal are very similar to existing elements.

Phase 1:
What is the conflict between the two factions? How are Wood and Metal opposed?
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Re: PROJECT : The 14th Element [Discussion - A Trinity?] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43487.msg1015309#msg1015309
« Reply #121 on: November 13, 2012, 05:06:30 am »
Ok. As of the poll a few pages back we are going to start on the Wood vs Metal project. Unlike the 13th element thread, we are going to design 2 factions this time rather than 1 element. This is to respect the issue that Wood and Metal are very similar to existing elements.
I honestly can't think of a good argument against the 'similarity point', so I suppose I will support this.
Quote
Phase 1:
What is the conflict between the two factions? How are Wood and Metal opposed?
For Metal, I feel this is kind of easy as we already have a precedent to draw from, that being the Mirrodin block of MTG, in which all five colors connect deeply to the Artifact supertype (one of MTG's main colorless themes, normally).

For Wood, not so sure. We could have a 'Technology vs. Nature' conflict going on, but that's cliche and I think we're going to say based on the previous arguments that Wood=/=Nature=/=Life. If anything I think we should try have an original conflict, perhaps with an accompanying story if necessary.

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Re: PROJECT : The 14th Element [Discussion - A Trinity?] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43487.msg1015325#msg1015325
« Reply #122 on: November 13, 2012, 05:43:34 am »
Something being cliche is not a bad thing. We frequently find things that intuitively fit to be widely accepted and thus frequently repeated. However Tech vs Nature is probably unwise because both Metal and Wood fall in both camps (Natural and used as Tech).

A related conflict is the conflict that Dwarves and Elves usually find themselves in in fantasy. Which is the better material Wood or Metal? The smooth firm stubborn metal or the rough flowing yielding wood? Do we halt the blow or do we move with it?
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 05:46:01 am by OldTrees »
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Offline storyteller

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Re: PROJECT : The 14th Element [Discussion - A Trinity?] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43487.msg1015363#msg1015363
« Reply #123 on: November 13, 2012, 01:23:50 pm »
I had posted this, which I think is very apt:

Wood, a following of eco-environmental peoples, a tribe of Life Synergy workers, who find the pinnacle of Element Enlightenment through cooperation and blending of elements through the faction/subelement 'Wood'

vs

Metal, a following of industrial technologists who feel that progress is created by mastery over Elements, with force and machinery being the path to Purity, of which the find the pinnacle within the sub-element of Earth, known as "Metal"

or cooperation with elements, vs purity or mastery over elements, lending to two different ideals of hard line 'machines' and soft line 'organics'

where Metal might make a tank, Wood would make an ornithopter. Wood is likely to 'grow buildings' Metal is likely to reinforce concrete with steel. This is somewhat nature vs tech, but can be expanded, Metal can have wizards, but wood would have shamans. Metal can have traditional technology, Wood can have organic technology, or to put it this way, physical vs 'life' science, or chemistry vs biology.

I see creatures far beyond elves and dwarves here.





Some ideas, that build on these notions

Cthonic - below the earth - Metal - immobile
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chthonic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Chthonic


Gaian - above the earth, alive - Wood - flowing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Offspring_of_Gaia



Further, we have the notion of

Eidolon - the spirit/ghost/apparition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eidolon_(apparition)

and

Hierophant - the human? who opens a path to the divine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierophant



additionally, we can go into the aspects of

Aidos - humility
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aidos

and

Kleos - fame/glory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleos



So, we have a set of two groups,

The Cthonic(Cthoni/Ctonae/etc)
who are our Metal users from beneath the Earth. The praise Kelos, the notion of Glory, and follow a Hierophant, one who reveals the divine. They are believers in the immutable, pristine and mathematically defined world of physics and chemistry.
From these beliefs, we can ally them with the elements:  :fire :gravity :darkness

and

The Gaians
who are our Wood users from above the Earth. They praise Aidos, humility and acceptance, they follow the Eidolon, the great spirit. They believe in the flowing, transcendent nature of reality, the biological, the abstract
From the beliefs we can extract allied elements of:  :water :light :life :aether  :air

(remember, they dont have to be even, and there can be a crossover, in this case  :earth applies to both)

some additional resources for our theme

oracles and sybils
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Classical_oracles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Sibyls

Nerieds and Oceanids
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Nereids
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Oceanids
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Deucalionids

Sprites and Daemons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprite_(creature)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimon

Other creatures
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylph
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nymph


and since this is a permanent heavy excursion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_greek_technology

^which has a wealth of great ideas.


so, I see two factions, once both friends of the earth, who split, when one, the Cthon, believed that they were separate from the divine, and needed to obtain some form of purity, went into the earth and sought perfection through distilling the most simple, the most discrete aspect of matter, and engaged in Metallurgy, Alchemistry, and in Physics, creating strange machines beneath the Earth. The elected a Hierophant, a great teacher, who led the forward. The other faction, Gaian, sought the heavens and believed they were one with the divine, and were to weave together life and matter as they pleased, the lived among the trees, who provided the most sacred of things, Wood, in its endless varieties of composition, brought together by many forms of Quanta and matter, thus complete. The began to engage in growing and forming of various living technologies, through the use of biology, they formed mighty wooden forms, buildings and even machines, made of wood. Somewhere, at a great cleft in the Earth, where powerful forms of Quanta flowed, both sought to own this sacred place, where heaven and subterranean worlds met, the great canyon city, the mighty cleft, where a cave system has collapsed. In this place, they wage war, among the streets of the once great city, built into the cliffs, think alexandria, where the city extends into the earth in cave tunnels, and above the ground in forests, home to an ancient spring of water. Here, high in the mountains, both in the heavens, the forest and beneath the earth, do worlds come together, with both factions wishing to take hold of the place in order to gain some stronghold among the elemental planes. Here, there war engines meet, and armies vie for control, to determine which will be the most divine, purist, completionist, Cthonic or Gaian, Cold Steel, or Living Wood. Chemistry or Biology, Complexity or Simplicity, The Spirit Within, or The Spirit Above.

Also wanted to add the best split I could find if it was wanted

Cthonic (metal)
 :fire :gravity :darkness :death :earth :entropy

Gaian (Wood)
 :water :light :life :air :aether :time

Which is of course mutable, Id put Earth and Entropy in both myslf, I also think the Cthonic might get mother Other Cards.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 04:25:14 pm by storyteller »

Offline OldTrees

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Re: PROJECT : The 14th Element [Discussion - A Trinity?] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43487.msg1015406#msg1015406
« Reply #124 on: November 13, 2012, 06:43:49 pm »
I do not think we should ignore Wood based technology or Metal based nature. It is for this reason I do not think Wood/Nature vs Metal/Tech would be a wise stereotype to embrace.


Coop vs Purity has already been done with Water vs Fire and would lead to a very lopsided flexibility advantage.


Physics-Inorganic Chemistry vs Organic Chemistry-Biology is an interesting path. Especially with how it developed into the Cthonic and Gaians.
Here, there war engines meet, and armies vie for control, to determine which will be the most divine, purist, completionist, Cthonic or Gaian, Cold Steel, or Living Wood. Chemistry or Biology, Complexity or Simplicity, The Spirit Within, or The Spirit Above.

I see creatures far beyond elves and dwarves here.
I brought up elves and dwarves to mention their argument not to suggest adding them. It basically sums up to the cold steel vs living wood aspect of the Cthonic and Gaian argument.

Does anyone have any other suggestions? If not then we will vote between "Nature vs Tech" and "Cthonic vs Gaian".
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Re: PROJECT : The 14th Element [Discussion - A Trinity?] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43487.msg1015415#msg1015415
« Reply #125 on: November 13, 2012, 08:17:07 pm »
I do not think we should ignore Wood based technology or Metal based nature. It is for this reason I do not think Wood/Nature vs Metal/Tech would be a wise stereotype to embrace.
Absolutely. I tried to work that in to the description of the two factions, both have technology, it is the nature of the tech and how they approach it.

Quote
Coop vs Purity has already been done with Water vs Fire and would lead to a very lopsided flexibility advantage.
Interesting, though that is just one theme. I used it to describe the motivations of the factions as represented by the Elemental nature attributed to each one. I am clearely seeing an 'Oak vs Willow' parable here.

Quote
Physics-Inorganic Chemistry vs Organic Chemistry-Biology is an interesting path. Especially with how it developed into the Cthonic and Gaians.
Here, there war engines meet, and armies vie for control, to determine which will be the most divine, purist, completionist, Cthonic or Gaian, Cold Steel, or Living Wood. Chemistry or Biology, Complexity or Simplicity, The Spirit Within, or The Spirit Above.
I can further expand on the history/philosophy of the two groups if desired.
Quote
I see creatures far beyond elves and dwarves here.
I brought up elves and dwarves to mention their argument not to suggest adding them. It basically sums up to the cold steel vs living wood aspect of the Cthonic and Gaian argument.
totally, in fact, you could use dwarves and elves, I just also see a cyborg, a genetically engineered mutant plant-monster, a wooden ornithopter and a metal tank type thing, all brought into these elements and intertwined with the other elements. I just dont want to limit the factions very much. Id like to get into the Ancient Greek Mythos and out of middle-earth a bit.


Quote
Does anyone have any other suggestions? If not then we will vote between "Nature vs Tech" and "Cthonic vs Gaian".
I too am waiting to see what arises.

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Re: PROJECT : The 14th Element [Discussion - A Trinity?] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43487.msg1015826#msg1015826
« Reply #126 on: November 15, 2012, 04:23:25 pm »
push for vote, (been long enough)

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Re: PROJECT : The 14th Element https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43487.msg1015829#msg1015829
« Reply #127 on: November 15, 2012, 04:31:49 pm »
Since a while ago a discussion of how metal & wood are opposed, here is my point of view on this that has been posted here weeks ago:

Personally, I think we should have Metal and Wood as new elements, since they are the only "original" elements than have not appeared yet in any new-element discussion (correct me if wrong here).
Moreover, Wood and Metal can be considered opposite elements, since there always were "struggle" between them during history and they also represent different time periods. Wooden weapons and shields were replaced by metallic ones, wooden ammunition (arrows) were replaced by metallic ones (bullets), wooden vehicles (wagons) were replaced by metallic ones (cars) etc.
Furthermore, they have also different capabilities; Wood floats while Metal sinks, Wood breaks while Metal bends, Wood is organic while Metal is inorganic, Wood is soft while Metal is hard etc.
About Force, well I am not sure about it. I find it too generic to be an element by itself...
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Re: PROJECT : The 14th Element [Discussion - A Trinity?] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43487.msg1015884#msg1015884
« Reply #128 on: November 15, 2012, 09:56:29 pm »
So here is how the voting is going to work. I am going to give everyone 24hrs from now to post an answer to the following question:

Which conflict should we use:
1) Nature vs Technology
2) Gaian vs Cthonic (Living Wood, or Cold Steel. Biology or Chemistry, Simplicity or Complexity, The Spirit Above, or The Spirit Within.)
3) Different Tech (Wood floats while Metal sinks, Wood breaks while Metal bends, Wood is organic while Metal is inorganic, Wood is soft while Metal is hard etc)

My vote
Spoiler for Hidden:
I vote for Gaian vs Cthonic
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Re: PROJECT : The 14th Element [Discussion - A Trinity?] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43487.msg1015894#msg1015894
« Reply #129 on: November 15, 2012, 10:52:14 pm »
Or I could just add a poll.

Anyways, my vote:
Gaian vs Cthonic

Mainly because it sounds the most element-y
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Re: PROJECT : The 14th Element [Discussion - A Trinity?] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43487.msg1015904#msg1015904
« Reply #130 on: November 16, 2012, 12:07:29 am »
Or I could just add a poll.
If you would that would be ideal.
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PROJECT "Wood vs. Metal" : The Elemental Factions [Poll - Faction Identity] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43487.msg1015944#msg1015944
« Reply #131 on: November 16, 2012, 03:40:20 am »
Or I could just add a poll.

Anyways, my vote:
Gaian vs Cthonic

Mainly because it sounds the most element-y
Here's your poll.

I personally prefer Gaian vs. Cthonic - while I don't really like confining each faction to select elements (no room for turncoats?), I do like the idea of each faction having a different take on 'technology' and how it's to used in battle.

 

blarg: