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Offline ZephyrPhantomTopic starter

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[Feedback] Word Count Limit? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42933.msg535145#msg535145
« on: August 20, 2012, 06:53:17 pm »
Hey everyone,

So recently, in the last competition (ETG User Cards 2), it's been brought to my attention multiple times that the 250 word count was not only difficult to write for some users but also lacked meaning as some people felt they were forced to write useless fluff.

Now, there are two main arguments here regarding this issue (paraphrased to avoid a wall of text):

Pro-Word Count Limit : "Keeping a word count limit is a good thing. By having it, we prevent users from simply submitting 'blank' cards with no flavor. It's also a good thing to have in the polls, for those of us who want to know more about the card and how it links to the theme."

Against Word Count Limit : "The issue with having a word count is that sometimes the card can easily convey it's flavor with a few words, or the theme is really well known/easily understood. I'm not really for adding useless fluff that already states what's going on in the card. If I do have a good description that prioritizes quality over quantity, it gets covered in useless fluff and looks somewhat generic."

Now, there is a third argument, which states that I could simply have a rule called 'Please add flavor text' or have a really low word count such as 50. However, the issue with doing this is that a lot more people have the chance to insert something simple like 'blah blah flavor text lol' instead of a blank card (with the former arguably being worse than the latter.) Technically, this falls under the class of 'flavor text', although it is extremely low quality. While I know this community is really friendly and tends to do most of its work above the quality of a normal forum, we also have to keep in mind we have newcomers in this game who might not fully know their way around yet.

Lastly, there's a fourth factor of flavor vs. design - some card/deck idea competitions swing much more heavily towards the players building off flavor (such as Mythology and False Gods), whereas others are mechanic-centric (such as Opposites Attract) As a result, sometimes it's important to indicate the emphasis on flavor, whereas other times the mechanic make require explanation on how it works.

In this case, I'm asking your thoughts on the word limit. What do you feel about being the competition, and do you think it should be lowered/raised/removed entirely? Please explain why and discuss -  I'd like to have some serious constructive criticism and reasoning that justifies the 'settings' of the preferred word limit (or lack of it).

Also keep in mind that some competitions mandate/can't use a word requirement at all in context (Story Competitions need a minimum wordcount, Art competitions need no wordcount), so I'd like to stick to the card/deck idea competitions as a 'standard' for wordcounts, as it's one of the more common competitions we host.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 09:44:48 pm by Zblader »

Offline rosutosefi

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Re: [FEEDBACK REQUESTED] Word Count Limit? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42933.msg535149#msg535149
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2012, 07:13:47 pm »
Word count is good IMO, it encourages people to add some content to their submissions. Without content, there would be nothing to vote on. Take the current problem in card selection for example. I've never submitted a card idea, but here's what I gathered: Your card has to be "shiny" to make it into the crucible/forge/whatchamacallit stuff. If competitions did not require word count, it may end up becoming something like that. Some people won't even bother to write anything about the cards, and may even end up being a shininess competition (generate awesomesauce, blah blah) which isn't a good thing. I'd like something to vote on, and I'd love to eat words on your card and vote on it if it made sense and promoted cats and ice cream and stuff.

Personally, I'd like a 100-150 word limit for non-story competitions and 300-400 for story ones. ZBlader, I'm not drunk! Just sleepy. -.-
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Offline furballdn

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Re: [FEEDBACK REQUESTED] Word Count Limit? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42933.msg535152#msg535152
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2012, 07:17:13 pm »
All you need is get the job done with however many words you require. In this case, say why it is thematically and mechanically that way, perhaps add a bit more. It doesn't matter if it's 10 words or 1000. As long as the point is made, and people agree and like it, it's fine. (Also, longer makes people more likely to tl;dr)

Offline justaburd

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Re: [FEEDBACK REQUESTED] Word Count Limit? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42933.msg535154#msg535154
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2012, 07:18:14 pm »
My stance is for the anti word count one.

My argument, as stated in the Opening Post, was that there tends not to be a need for a word requirement.

Think about all the papers you had to write for classes. (english, history, etc.) For those who always wrote enough, or too much, having a word count requirement and not having one changes absolutely nothing. If there's something that you want to say, you'll say it even if it is way over the word count reqiurement. This post is shaping up to be like that. That is, unless there is an upper limit, which doesn't factor in here. I will note that I will never read the longer explanations that don't pertain to how a card works above a certain level of detail into how the card was conceived as it doesn't factor into how the card will work. In short, it's more or less flavor text for those of us who want to know.

Back to the paper, for those who had trouble actually writing enough for what the teacher required, I bet most end up adding fluff that doesn't actually contribute much to the central argument of the paper itself. Perhaps you added some extra background information, perhaps you expanded a bit on some ideas. But overall the amount of actual content hardly changed. Alternately, how many people change the margins? The text size? Added a page of footnotes? Clear reasons for the lack of a need for a word count.

For example filler, I had an English teacher hand all of us in the class a copy of a 1 page short story. I don't think I have it anymore, but it was GOOD. And its quality showed in both the A that it received, and, more importantly, the fact that there was a 3-5 page requirement for the story.

See what I did there? How much did that story matter to the point I was making? Did you need another example past that of the paper that teachers require you to write? If you didn't read that last paragraph, would you not have understood my argument?

This feeling of needing to write more when there's not much more to write is the exact feeling that occurs when there's a (relatively) high word count requirement for things. It is understood that this requirement is considered to be needed for blocking people from spamming low content stuff, but there's no need for it to be 250. 100 would be enough. One argument to the contrary was that people would post filler for the 100 word count. How is that different from a 250 word filler? The higher requirement only serves to block potential participants.

And that brings me to my next point. While I don't know if anyone actually didn't post a user card simply because they felt they couldn't write 250 words, I will say that I considered not entering solely because of the 250 word requirement. It wasn't that I didn't have an idea I felt was good. It wasn't that I thought I couldn't balance it. It was the word count requirement. And this leaves me to wonder how many people are discouraged by word counts every competition.

I'll take this time to make a second example, this time necessary. (in my opinion) Consider if I had typed out my argument in 2 paragraphs instead of this entire page. Assume that it was what was noted in the OP plus a couple of extra points. You'd still see my point of view no? How necessary was it for me to type all this? If I had typed mostly filler instead of actually trying to make points, how likely would you be to actually read this entire post from start to finish?

I'll add more as I think of them, thank you.

P.S. All of that said, I AM for a 100 word requirement. Sort of as a compromise.



TL;DNR
There's no need for a high word count requirement. For those that can write, it's not a problem. For those that have trouble, it ends up being low content compared to word count. Word count may also stop people from participating in competitions cause they can't write a lot. Not having much to say ends in fluff. Also, points can be made concise and to the point like this TL;DNR paragraph.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 07:31:51 pm by justaburd »
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Offline furballdn

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Re: [FEEDBACK REQUESTED] Word Count Limit? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42933.msg535155#msg535155
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2012, 07:21:54 pm »
In support of what I said above, I just tl;dr'd justaburd's post. lawl not really, I did come back and read through it, but you get my point

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Re: [FEEDBACK REQUESTED] Word Count Limit? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42933.msg535156#msg535156
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2012, 07:27:52 pm »
When writing the descriptions for my entries for this contest, 100 words came easily enough.  Most of the rest of it ended up being fluff.  I think in most cases, asking for a description is a bit much, but asking for 250 words on a single car idea, even based on ourselves, is a bit much.  250 words is a good limit for a mechanic or a slot, for but for a simple card submission I think 100 is a better way to go.  OTOH for something like an FG design competition, 250 would be too low.
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Re: [FEEDBACK REQUESTED] Word Count Limit? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42933.msg535157#msg535157
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2012, 07:33:23 pm »
I vote for no word count limit (or a much lower one). In this competition, I didn't think the word limit would be that hard to reach, but once I finished writing all about my card, it ended up over 100 words short. What was I to fill the rest of the requirement with?

Flavor text to describe a card should be exactly as long as it needs to be.

(...and Card/Deck Competitions should be about the Cards/Decks, not about the writing... there are writing competitions for that.)

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Re: [FEEDBACK REQUESTED] Word Count Limit? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42933.msg535183#msg535183
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2012, 08:56:06 pm »
On every competition like this one that i had to write a flavor, i ended up short about 100 words or so, and thus i had to fill in with innecesary stuff just to reach the 250 words. I think it depends on the competition, some would do fine with 100-150 while on some others, 250 or 500 is needed.

(...and Card/Deck Competitions should be about the Cards/Decks, not about the writing... there are writing competitions for that.)

This.

Offline furballdn

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Re: [FEEDBACK REQUESTED] Word Count Limit? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42933.msg535236#msg535236
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2012, 01:53:09 am »
Personal opinion: 200 words seem to be fine (all my entries have been about that long). 250 requires some filler.

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Re: [FEEDBACK REQUESTED] Word Count Limit? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42933.msg535240#msg535240
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2012, 02:09:32 am »
Competition: Require an argument but do not require a word count.
Voters: Reward clear, accurate an complete arguments.
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Re: [FEEDBACK REQUESTED] Word Count Limit? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42933.msg535990#msg535990
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2012, 08:28:13 pm »

(...and Card/Deck Competitions should be about the Cards/Decks, not about the writing... there are writing competitions for that.)

No offence, but I do not think people like me or Annele or everyone who wrote a 'story' for his/her entries did it because they are show-offs or in order to reach the 200 word limit. We wrote those stuff because we like it!  ;)
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Re: [FEEDBACK REQUESTED] Word Count Limit? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42933.msg536002#msg536002
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2012, 09:58:12 pm »

(...and Card/Deck Competitions should be about the Cards/Decks, not about the writing... there are writing competitions for that.)

No offence, but I do not think people like me or Annele or everyone who wrote a 'story' for his/her entries did it because they are show-offs or in order to reach the 200 word limit. We wrote those stuff because we like it!  ;)

Why is the word restriction anyways? A player can describe the relation between the card and himself in 100 or even 50 words and that would be enough if it's clear. long text = tl;dr
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