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Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg510393#msg510393
« Reply #132 on: June 12, 2012, 07:39:57 am »
Warning:  Lotsa reading awaits.

I think I should probably break this down into sections or else I'm going to likely steer off course about 50 times.  May as well start at the beginning...

Spoiler for Auction:
I don't really have any complaints or suggestions here, actually :D  I've already said my bit on secondary auction as well.

Spoiler for Vault Construction:
About the only thing I disliked about vault building was that it seemed to severely limit the options I was able to field against each element in planning.  With Life being pretty weak in terms of PvP this meant that we were unable to bring as many counters to cards like Dim Shield as we realistically would have liked.  For example, during round 1 I wouldn't have been surprised in the slightest to see every single team use a duo with Dim Shields against us.  And though I probably would have been able to send a deck against each and every one of them that counters Dim Shield in theory, building a vault that is completely centered around countering a single card is obviously going to open up some pretty huge holes to other strategies.  However, the simplest way to fix this issue would be to essentially "fix" :life as an Element rather than modify War rules to account for various huge weaknesses that each Element may or may not have.  Therefore I cannot say that vault restrictions were really to blame for this problem. 

The lack of Grabbows throughout War was pretty refreshing.

I also dislike having vault construction take place during Propaganda page creation, especially now that there are 6 teammates to work with.  When I first noticed how many teams were having vrt produce their banner art I thought it was just out of sheer laziness, but looking back it seems pretty logical to have someone outside of the team perform that type of work while the rest is able to focus completely on vault preparations.  But as I've already said my bit on Propaganda improvements as well, I'll end on that note.

Spoiler for Support Teams + Deckbuilding Phase:
Okay, there's a lot here that I feel needs improvement. 

At the beginning of War each team is responsible for preparing for 6 matches on the main team.  The next couple of rounds don't really change much because it's unlikely that every single team will have their ~2 attackers charge into battle against everyone else.  However the later rounds become nearly intolerable.  Over the past few Wars it has been incredibly evident that Teams lose quite a bit of willpower and interest in War as it continues to play out and decks continue to be lost with each new round.  War itself compensated for this in the past by requiring teams to prepare less and less with each new round which in turn caused teams to devote less time to an event that was becoming uninteresting to them.  However, support team battles will cause teams to spend essentially the same amount of time on preparations in the later rounds as they had in the beginning, depending on how many attackers they face.  In turn, it makes the deckbuilding phase more intolerable and frustrating for losing teams than I think is desired.  Also, having to build decks and schedule matches during the same ~3 days (especially when there are quite a few teammates on the support team) is a bit too much.

Deckbuilding restrictions may need a bit of rework as well, though I'm really not sure what needs to be done.  Life had its fair share of successes and failures when attacking so I can't really say if the deckbuilding rules are slanted against anyone's favor.  Sure from the outside it looks as if attacking teams have a severe disadvantage against defenders, but performances don't exactly reflect that very well.  I'd say that the deckbuilding ruleset causes Elements with particularly big weaknesses to be placed at a disadvantage, but again, that's not exactly War's problem as much as a balancing issue that needs to be resolved within the game itself.   I enjoyed the deckbuilding quite a bit though; this kind of restrictive deckbuilding that's not bound by the numerical limitations of a vault allow for plenty fun to be had in testing, and with each new round that passes in the main team of War that's not really observed.  Also, as I've advocated a desire for my team to really get to know the Element :life during War, this really allows for that desire to become a reality more easily especially when the ones developing most of the ideas are someone other than the Master/General of the team.

I personally believe that teams should be limited to 2 or 3 members acting on a support team at a time.  This both takes away time required to prepare for the matches during the deckbuilding phase as War progresses and weakens the power of the team's defense slightly.


Miscellaneous thoughts:

-The rule allowing opposing teams to purchase someone off of your support team needs to be terminated and never return again.  I never allowed a single support team member into my team's chatroom for the simple reason that if another team somehow found a way to bribe them into joining their side then we'd be completely screwed.  And while I'd like to think this would never happen, I have no choice but to take these precautions.  As a result, support team members become completely dissociated from the actions of the main team which causes severe confusion because that member has no idea what to do for that round until instructed to do so.  In addition, this allow for an exploit of rule 8.2 and the "no sharing of vault secrets" rule if someone does not take the precautions I had.

-Generals being unable to sub for attacking support team members while the Lt. is freely able to do so doesn't make sense to me.  Generals being unable to post support team actions while the Lt. is freely able to do so doesn't make sense to me.  As far as I'm concerned the General should have the ability to do nearly everything else that their subordinates can given that they possess the highest power of their team and that they were the ones who basically gave that subordinate that power in the first place.

-Not posting each individual match-up during the later rounds was confusing considering there was no announcement indicating how things would work from that point forward.  Arranging matches became increasingly difficult as well, causing nearly all matches to be done at the last minute as everyone went crazy trying to find an opponent to face.

-Having to decide what players to send again which team before the end of the duel phase was fine except for the fact that some duels might not take place even an hour before the round ends, at which time a team's Lt. may or may not be online to observe what cards were used.

Spoiler for Duels:
Best of 5 is still great, with the addition of Relics I don't really have any complaints about the upgrade amounts either.  I'd like to give my thoughts on each member role in more detail, but considering I didn't get to benefit from their effects even once, I can't say they wouldn't be negative.  But there are a few improvements that I feel certain should be made:

-Assassins:  Random discard needs to be removed.  I understand that it doesn't make much sense for a team to have control over what its opposing team assassinates from a logical standpoint, but then again in this case no one has control over anything.  It's just completely unfair to lose access to an incredibly important card that wasn't even used during a lost duel, especially when that card may be necessary for an entire deck to function at all.  If having a team choose discards from their own vault is out of the question then maybe adding a removal of 3 cards to what's already discarded from the defeated deck would be possible.  As for what happens if the discard is already at 30...maybe that's a good incentive for people to use less stalls :)

-Member roles in general:  The whole free-floating member role idea doesn't seem good to me.  It's nice that it allows teams flexibility when it comes to inactive players, but it effectively allows everyone to gang up on a single stronger/weaker team as desired unless that team is paired against a General.  I also personally disliked having nearly every team send Salvagers against us each round because they figured we'd be a prime target for Relic farming.  Also, not having members preset made match-ups a hassle to deal with.

Discarding system was pretty good.  Salvaging system was fine.  Conversions were okay too.  Matching up teams could use some improvement though, I believe:  I was disappointed that we never got to face Darkness a single time during the entirety of War even with both teams lasting until Round 7.

Spoiler for Event Cards:
May as well do this round by round.

-Round 1, Fateful Day:  I thought this one was cool.  Teams claiming that it wasn't right to force a 1 card discard during the first round seemed to be...overreacting a bit.  Discard a Pend for Christ's sake, it's not the end of the world.  But I was bothered by the deadline for the Event Card being 24 hours before the War began.  With all the new things such as scouting threads that I now needed to attend to in addition to the deadline being stated in a rather non-obvious manner, it completely slipped my mind that this needed to be done.  To my recollection last War never had anything like this, so it caught me completely by surprise.  In addition, the Round 7 Event Card had a similar feature which had a deadline in line with the beginning of the duel phase and there were no problems with it.  In the future I feel that these Event Card deadlines should be the same as deckbuilding deadlines, or if that's not possible make it blatantly obvious that there's a change.

-Round 2, Tactician, Reclaimer, Sniper, and Spy:  Aside from the random discard from Sniper, these were good.  Tactician allowed us to keep nearly everything from the deck that kept us alive for the end of the War, incidentally.

-Round 3, Full Support and Telepathic Gambit:  These were both good.

-Round 4, Feint and Voodoo Curse:  It seems like Feint should have been made 2 separate Event Cards, but was good overall; gaining a single Relic from part 2 seemed a bit weak though.  Voodoo Curse would have been bad if not for the fact that Feint was presented during the same round.  Because of this teams either had to decide between giving 3 extra upgrades to redistribute among the entire team or not get this bonus and make the possibility of one team's support team invulnerable less likely.  But I did dislike the fact that teams had no control over whether they got to face a Lt. or not, even if a team decided to send in a Lt. for that round.

-Round 5, Blitzkrieg Strategy and Guerrilla Tactics:  While both of these were good in theory, I think it states a lot about the effects of RNG in this game when everyone chooses the latter x)

-Round 6, Transdimensional Box and Desperate Times:  I didn't see much use for the former, but that may have been just me.  Desperate Times on the other hand...mmm.  Again, not a fan of the possibility of random discarding.  I'm also not a fan of not having a choice in whether or not your team might take a discard this late in the War.  I mean it would be incredibly lame to be at 60 cards, lose, and then be eliminated by a forced discard.  I suppose that you could add a rule which forbids Chaos Lord from eliminating a team though.

-Round 7, Tactical Foresight:  Liked this one.

May or may not have forgotten something.  Will reply again later if I have.
The worst of these were:
1. feint event card for the reasons willng3 already wrote - being on the hurting side of the stick, we saw this very well, this would have worked better, if it is your own Lt. whose win counts.
2. The fact that support team members could join another team - this was a very scary thought, even though we allowed support team members to see a lot of the deckbuilding process, if they "deserted" us, we would have been screwed.
3. deckbuilding deadlines with flood of support battles (limit on support team may be a good suggestion, though i would limit it at 4).
Attacking support teams become strong one round after a team had fewer decks to play.
I think this support team system was a good overall idea to flush excess upgrades from the game, the only problem was that it strained healthy teams too much.



Offline deuce22

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Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg510475#msg510475
« Reply #133 on: June 12, 2012, 11:39:21 am »
Also regarding support teams, I'm curious to see what the numbers are on how many battles were actually performed by support team members. I'm guessing close to 50% sub rate. With such a high sub rate compared to main team matches, what's the point?

Personally, I am not a fan of having a support team in war, but I will save my extensive rambling until war is over.

Offline kev

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Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg510500#msg510500
« Reply #134 on: June 12, 2012, 02:17:34 pm »
Warning:  Lotsa reading awaits.
Players who put this much time into S&F single-handedly improve the Event for the future.  +rep, will.

That said, I'd like to see the community build off of will's post in two ways:
1) It's hard to change War on one man's opinions.  Please share what you agreed with and what you didn't.
2) Continue to brainstorm solutions for what you feel were the problems of War 5.  There's a lot of ways to come at these problems and sometimes the best solution is out-of-the-box.

Keep the feedback coming, peeps.  8)

Offline Onizuka

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Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg510524#msg510524
« Reply #135 on: June 12, 2012, 03:11:37 pm »
-No problem with auction, although I'd like to try some sort of blind auction. I think it would be interesting to see what you think you can get away with paying for people instead of attempting to pay the lowest.
-Same in theory with will, agree with doing it during prop
-Prop...I intensely dislike an outside team doing it for you. I think it loses all meaning to have someone not from your team (or especially from another team) doing prop. If we're showing pride or whatever we should be showing for prop, I don't think we're showing it by having one guy doing half the prop. Seems more like we're selling out just to get some extra cards. I'd rather something bad like Entropy's in comparison to anything a non-team member could make. I also dislike rewarding popularity with cards.

Bo5 still the best format. Relic system was cool. Support team system needs rework (I like Shantu's idea..maybe needs a bit of a touchup perhaps, idk). Random discarding is stupidly unfun. Salvager is alright. I rather have scout tell me what people salvaged the round before rather than what they have in their vault, seems more useful. Strategist needs buffing.

I like the free floating system except when its constricted to what who has to post (except general). Having only the Lt. do something or only the scout do something seemed stupid (As will said, why only lt att sub when the gen should be able to do everything and anything?).

About sweet spots..I've always just thought it'd be easier to look at what happens if a team subs in a specific situation instead of playing and if they end up in a sweet spot because of it..to just count the salvage ya know? It seems simple in my head but there's probably implications I'm missing.

Support teams- I really think that not having set decks is stupid in an event all about set decks. Like if you find a perfect counter to what a team could normally bring but want to bring it twice, it doesn't really work out well. It also prevents support team members from doing what they want away from the main team. And the way of picking support teams, I rather have had it be the plan to 'buy' two more members and the two lowest priced on your team gets added to your support team for free. It prevents the 'oh hey lets switch a vet for a 1 carder since we get first pick cause we lost early in the previous war (I didn't like this either, still seemed to me that we were punishing success and rewarding failure)'.

Problem with support team building is that defense was inherently strong, but too strong. Offense favors teams with larger card  bases or teams that have 'meh' cards that work better in a more restricted playing field (FFQ is a good example). As said before, I like Shantu's idea for support team stuff. Not having them be able to finish dueling until the end of the battle phase of that round seemed stupid as well, its not like the effects took effect the round the battles finished right? Just give like a day or so before the end to finish to allow teams to strategize or such.

Another thing with support teams was the free subbing. I had thought support teams were the new thing this war and they were to be taken seriously. But when an event where a penalty would be appropriate was not rewarded with a penalty, I just laughed. It just made me think of the whole support team system as a joke.

I'd prefer having players be picked (IE Shantu vs PlayerOa) and then being able to assign roles at the end (Ending with Scout Shantu vs Assassin PlayerOa as an example). It still allows flexibility with roles but allows for easier communication.

Event cards:
R1: I don't like forced discard without any choice in the matter, no matter what amount. Also 10 men is mean.
R2: As with multiple choice event cards, there is usually the best ones. They were all decent, at least.
R3: Good.
R4: Feint seemed weak. Personally, I like the idea of being able to deny a team the event card. This war, to me, has been about 'The power of choice'. Where to send who and what role to send where. I see being able to deny a team the event card a strong and appropriate use of this ideal.
R5: Yeah, 2-0 will either mean bad RNG or a counter in most cases. Bad RNG can't be predicted, and a counter doesn't need the help. Something like 'if you're down 1-2, the current score becomes 2-2.' or something like that perhaps. That specific idea seems OP, though.
R6: More use if defending was harder, although I suppose in later rounds it would be easier for some teams. Although hurting the main team on a 1:1 basis never seemed good enough. Random discard, yadayadayada.
R7: Great event card.
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Offline Avenger

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Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg510547#msg510547
« Reply #136 on: June 12, 2012, 04:05:08 pm »
About Oni's ideas:
- blind auction may be better (including support members as last 2 places)
- prop - i agree, it sucks that popularity has an effect on vault size, i don't know how could this be fixed though, with the community voting anyway.
Outside team working on prop is also stinky, but in the end it all boils down to community vote (popularity) anyway.

-Assassin - discard 3 more from the deck, or if that doesn't work discard 3 more cards that were in your deck, or if that won't work, discard 3 more cards from vault.

Support teams
I don't think defense was strong. it was strong only for large teams. When your team shrunk, your support team grew stronger (you had to survive one more round to be really strong).

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Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg512105#msg512105
« Reply #137 on: June 17, 2012, 02:42:41 pm »
Spoiler for Possible blind auction:
So everyone applying to the auction is randomly assorted into sets of 12. Players that don't fit into the set of 12 will be added 1 by 1 to random groups. (Reasoning for sets of 12/13: To 100% get a team member for each set

Generals would bid on every player in each set. Once they win one member, they can't win another from that set. This goes down the line until every team has a member. Players who don't get bid on can either be moved to another group or be one of the players not allowed in war (leaning towards first just due to the possible 13 real strong player groupings)

There are obviously problems with this option. It makes auction a pretty long process. It disallows player involvement in what element they don't want to be in. Probably other things. But I think a blind auction would be a nice swing for a future war.

Just an idea. There are probably better ideas in regards to blind auctioning, but this one seemed like a good way to guarantee every team got the required number.
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Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg512108#msg512108
« Reply #138 on: June 17, 2012, 02:56:11 pm »
A snaking draft (like fantasy football) could be fun. Teams would be pretty balanced. Vaults can start equal.

This would also make the auction much faster. All generals submit their rankings of every application. Then the WMs go through the rankings to develop teams.

A bad thing about this is that some players may get on elements they don't want -_-

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Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg512109#msg512109
« Reply #139 on: June 17, 2012, 02:58:03 pm »
A snaking draft (like fantasy football) could be fun. Teams would be pretty balanced. Vaults can start equal.

This would also make the auction much faster. All generals submit their rankings of every application. Then the WMs go through the rankings to develop teams.

A bad thing about this is that some players may get on elements they don't want -_-
How would this stop bans? :v
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Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg512111#msg512111
« Reply #140 on: June 17, 2012, 03:21:20 pm »
A snaking draft (like fantasy football) could be fun. Teams would be pretty balanced. Vaults can start equal.

This would also make the auction much faster. All generals submit their rankings of every application. Then the WMs go through the rankings to develop teams.

A bad thing about this is that some players may get on elements they don't want -_-
How would this stop bans? :v

I said it would be a fun idea, not a good idea :P

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Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg512117#msg512117
« Reply #141 on: June 17, 2012, 03:44:37 pm »
No doubt a blind auction would be more efficient time-wise and an interesting variation, but SG often said a blind auction would be less exciting and fun.  I'm sort of inclined to agree.  I think the draft is a lot of fun as is.  But I'd love more feedback.

Offline Onizuka

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Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg512132#msg512132
« Reply #142 on: June 17, 2012, 04:22:26 pm »
I think it'd be less fun for the non-generals, who wouldn't know anything except who could be bidded on in each group. I think it would be more fun for us to attempt to figure out what we think each general would pick (as a general) for each person instead of just one upping them if you want the person. It becomes less of a spectator sport and more of a puzzle, which I find more fun. (Plus we could possibly use some tourney codes that are taken from people who don't do the lower matches for another betting where whoever correctly predicts the most player-correct teams gets the codes, perhaps.)

I guess the real question is whose fun do we value more during the auction? The spectators or the generals. 'cause I didn't find the auction all that fun (and that has nothing to do with my pricey team, just the way it went about. I find being outbidded more annoying than fun, while people not involved get to be excited over outbidding and what general bids on what and such). I think the generals should be having the fun during the auction, not the spectators (if we had to choose one over the other).

You're just as selfish as I am. You're just not as good at it yet.

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Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg512184#msg512184
« Reply #143 on: June 17, 2012, 07:16:26 pm »
Seriously tho, my main gripe with the auction is that generals who are online when the auction opens are able to bid lots of 1-card bids. I was unable to bid until about 12 hrs into the auction and almost none of the "1-card players" I wanted to bid on were available.

I am open to other auction options as this was frustrating from my perspective. A blind auction may help with this. I dont know.

 

blarg: