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Offline ShrinkTopic starter

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Fear | Fear https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35259.msg444167#msg444167
« on: January 01, 2012, 01:46:28 pm »
NAME:
Fear
ELEMENT:
Darkness
COST:
3 :darkness
TYPE:
Spell
ATK|HP:
TEXT:
Target creature gains the 'Fear' status and loses its skill. If that creature is targeted it burrows for one turn.
NAME:
Fear
ELEMENT:
Darkness
COST:
2 :darkness
TYPE:
Spell
ATK|HP:
TEXT:
Target creature gains the 'Fear' status and loses its skill. If that creature is targeted it burrows for one turn.
ART:
EmeraldTiger
IDEA:
srm359
NOTES:
SERIES:
Creatures with Emotions (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,35181.0.html)

Previous Version(s)

Spoiler for Hidden:
NAME:
ELEMENT:
Darkness
COST:
3 :darkness
TYPE:
Spell
ATK|HP:
TEXT:
Target creature gains 'Fear' status. Previous skills are removed.
NAME:
Fear
ELEMENT:
Darkness
COST:
2 :darkness
TYPE:
Spell
ATK|HP:
TEXT:
Target creature gains 'Fear' status. Previous skills are removed.
ART:
EmeraldTiger
IDEA:
srm359
NOTES:
SERIES:
NAME:
Fear
ELEMENT:
Darkness
COST:
3 :darkness
TYPE:
Spell
ATK|HP:
TEXT:
Target creature without skill gains the Fear status. If that creature is targeted it burrows for one turn.
NAME:
Fear
ELEMENT:
Darkness
COST:
3 :darkness
TYPE:
Spell
ATK|HP:
TEXT:
Target creature without skill gains the Fear status. If that creature is targeted it burrows for one turn.
ART:
EmeraldTiger
IDEA:
srm359
NOTES:
These emotion cards are created to give unskilled creatures the ability to hold their own.

"Fear" is a like "bioluminescence"; It is now the skill of the creature.

Fear: If creature with 'Fear' is targeted it burrows for one turn.
SERIES:
Creatures with Emotions (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,35181.0.html)
NAME:
Fear
ELEMENT:
Darkness
COST:
3 :darkness
TYPE:
Spell
ATK|HP:
TEXT:
Target creature without skill gains "Fear." If creature is targeted, it burrows for two turns.
NAME:
Fear
ELEMENT:
Darkness
COST:
3 :darkness
TYPE:
Spell
ATK|HP:
TEXT:
Target creature without skill gains "Fear." If creature is targeted, it burrows for one turn.
ART:
IDEA:
srm359
NOTES:
SERIES:
Creatures with Emotions (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,35181.0.html)
« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 12:43:27 pm by Shrink »
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Offline rickerd

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Re: Fear | Fear https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35259.msg444222#msg444222
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2012, 06:23:54 pm »
Maybe you can add to the notes that it's lobo-able.
I know players normaly know what bioluminescence is but just to prevent furter confusion.

But what about if it's just targeted and lobo'ed?

nice idea
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Re: Fear | Fear https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35259.msg444229#msg444229
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2012, 06:51:47 pm »
Another teaching spell. (A spell that gives a creature a skill)
Teaching spells work (See Acceleration, Liquid Shadow, Mitosis and Luciferin) but have problems too.
1) They require a valid creature exist for the spell to be usable.
2) If they give an active ability (able to be lobotomized) like Mitosis or Bioluminescence then they either remove the previous ability or only work on vanilla creatures (creatures with no active abilities).
3) Each time a teaching spell that removes the previous active ability is added to the game, the power of Lobotomizer and Mind Flayer is reduced.

Teaching spells have benefits too.
1) They allow modification of creatures.
2) They allow 2 card combos that are paid in steps.
3) The ability is less susceptible to summoning sickness (inability of a creature to use an activated ability on the turn they are generated) both by being able to be played on an existing creature and by being able to be played on a Time creature (SoR).
4) Weak abilities can be introduced through a mass teaching spell like luciferin.
5) Powerful abilities can be introduced with a second casting cost (the spell's casting cost) and can have negative side effects from the spell (infection from liquid shadow).

However I have 2 questions. Please think twice if the question seems easy. (anyone can answer these questions but the author should try as well)
1) How would the Fear ability benefit the game? Include both the varied uses and reasons you think those uses would benefit the game.
2) Why introduce Fear via a teaching spell? Consider both this form of teaching spell relative to alternative teaching spell variants and consider teaching spells compared to status effects, a temporary result of an activated ability or a shield effect.
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Offline ShrinkTopic starter

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Re: Fear | Fear https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35259.msg444276#msg444276
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2012, 12:49:42 am »
1) How would the Fear ability benefit the game? Include both the varied uses and reasons you think those uses would benefit the game.
Creating an entirely new strategy around deck building was the main objective.

The original intention of this series of emotion cards was to give cards that had no abilities (what you called vanilla creatures) a surprising new way to stand alone in deck building.

For other readers this would include:
Any creatures lobotomized would go under this category as well, but only from an in-game standpoint.

Fear, a unique skill compared to the rest of the emotion ideas, gives players more of a chance to counter decks completely or even partially based around creature control. It would probably be used with another element because of the strong creatures like Crawlers, Cockatrices, and Lycanthropes.

Giving these creatures the ability to stop instant death from Rage Potions, Lightnings, and strong Fire Bolts along with a debuff from the targeting itself supports both the opponent and the player who is using the ability.

On one hand, the player can use it on his own creatures to create an impenetrable line. On the other hand, the player may also use it on opponents' creatures they cannot kill with one or more spells. So, they can purposely have the creature burrow and have its attack chopped in half. This would include Colossal Dragon.

   Fear can be used in conjunction with Lobotomizers and Mind Flayers to weaken opponents' creatures even more. The opponents would no longer be able to buff their creatures with spells for they burrow instantly when targeted.

   This card pushes players into a corner, like darkness cards have done thematically for some time now. (Nightmare)

A new way of thinking that prevents mindless clicking is another addition to this card's positive qualities.

2) Why introduce Fear via a teaching spell? Consider both this form of teaching spell relative to alternative teaching spell variants and consider teaching spells compared to status effects, a temporary result of an activated ability or a shield effect.
This one is definitely trickier, but I believe it is because I want to give this card effect a limit. If a creature were to have such an ability to cause other creatures to gain "fear," it could be easily overpowered through cards like Quintessence.

At the same time, I don't want this to be temporary. I want creatures to be made to feel emotion, to go along with the series. Attacking creatures at their core and indirectly making them weaker (or stronger) is powerful.

I don't want them to fear a shield (through its effect). I don't want them to fear the creature/ability it possesses. I want the targeted creature to fear everything.

Fear is used -> Creature is forevermore cautious.
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Offline oblivion1212

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Re: Fear | Fear https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35259.msg444302#msg444302
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2012, 01:59:24 am »
"If creature is targeted.."

oblivion1212 used Plague/RoF/Pandemonium!

It's super effective!

on a more serious tone,

"If creature is targeted"

oblivion1212 used Blessing/Chaos Power/Momentum!

But it failed!

for those who aren't poke'fans, does this make vanilla creatures avoid buffs as well??

Offline ShrinkTopic starter

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Re: Fear | Fear https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35259.msg444333#msg444333
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2012, 04:16:22 am »
for those who aren't poke'fans, does this make vanilla creatures avoid buffs as well??
   Fear can be used in conjunction with Lobotomizers and Mind Flayers to weaken opponents' creatures even more. The opponents would no longer be able to buff their creatures with spells for they burrow instantly when targeted.
On a side note: I'm thinking over the wording. May need suggestions.
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Re: Fear | Fear https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35259.msg444337#msg444337
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2012, 04:22:17 am »
Nice, a full answer to question 1.

Your answer to question 2 was incomplete but that was in part due to my conciseness. In part to you missing the first half.
2) Why introduce Fear via a teaching spell? Consider both this form of teaching spell relative to alternative teaching spell variants and consider teaching spells compared to status effects, a temporary result of an activated ability or a shield effect.
This one is definitely trickier, but I believe it is because I want to give this card effect a limit. If a creature were to have such an ability to cause other creatures to gain "fear," it could be easily overpowered through cards like Quintessence.

At the same time, I don't want this to be temporary. I want creatures to be made to feel emotion, to go along with the series. Attacking creatures at their core and indirectly making them weaker (or stronger) is powerful.

I don't want them to fear a shield (through its effect). I don't want them to fear the creature/ability it possesses. I want the targeted creature to fear everything.

Fear is used -> Creature is forevermore cautious.
The teaching spell mechanic has many variations as I detailed in my first post.
You chose a Single Target spell that teaches an Active ability that can only affect Vanilla creatures rather than Lobotomizing.

1) Why single vs mass?
2) Why targeting? (You can ignore this one. Targeting is the design default.)
3) Why is Fear an active (lobotomizable) ability rather than passive (non lobotomizable)?
4) Why only affect Vanilla creatures rather than Lobotomizing the target's previous active ability if it had one?

I can see 4 ways to implement Fear. It could be a Teaching Spell, Status effect, a temporary result of an activated ability or a shield effect.
Teaching spell variants are covered in parts 1-4
Status effects vary between temporary ones like Freeze and permanent ones like Adrenaline. You mentioned in your post that you wanting Fear to be permanent.

5) What about a permanent status instead of a taught ability on the target?

Momentum and Immaterial are both active abilities and permanent status effects. This causes the status effect to be vulnerable to lobotimization while permitting it coexisting with a new taught ability (Accelerating Chargers have both a Momentum status and the Acceleration active ability.)

6) What about a teaching spell that bestows Fear as a permanent status that is also an active ability?

The activated ability and shield options were discussed in your post.
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Re: Fear | Fear https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35259.msg444346#msg444346
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2012, 04:49:25 am »
Sort of like a mini quintessence. Quint is better for the same cost.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Fear | Fear https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35259.msg444348#msg444348
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2012, 04:50:54 am »
Sort of like a mini quintessence. Quint is better for the same cost.
Reread the card. The thread might help you notice it has a use as CC as well.
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Offline ShrinkTopic starter

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Re: Fear | Fear https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35259.msg444356#msg444356
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2012, 04:56:24 am »
Nice, a full answer to question 1.

Your answer to question 2 was incomplete but that was in part due to my conciseness. In part to you missing the first half.
I apologize about not being able to completely follow up with an answer to your question. I was slightly thrown off by the detail and multitude of separate questions in the post itself. Anyways, let's move on.

I'm going to reply in pink so I do not have to break up the entire post down to separate quotes for each question.

The teaching spell mechanic has many variations as I detailed in my first post.
You chose a Single Target spell that teaches an Active ability that can only affect Vanilla creatures rather than Lobotomizing.

1) Why single vs mass?
I understand you're probably referring to cards like Luciferin. I believe the card itself would be overpowered. Using it to affect all creatures defeats the purpose of having this limitation. I believe six copies of this card can do more than enough damage if used appropriately and effectively.
2) Why targeting? (You can ignore this one. Targeting is the design default.)
3) Why is Fear an active (lobotomizable) ability rather than passive (non lobotomizable)?
I thought this over, and lobotomizing must use targeting, therefore the creature cannot be targeted to be lobotomized in the first place.
4) Why only affect Vanilla creatures rather than Lobotomizing the target's previous active ability if it had one?
I think I mentioned this here actually:
Fear can be used in conjunction with Lobotomizers and Mind Flayers to weaken opponents' creatures even more. The opponents would no longer be able to buff their creatures with spells for they burrow instantly when targeted.
I can see 4 ways to implement Fear. It could be a Teaching Spell, Status effect, a temporary result of an activated ability or a shield effect.
Teaching spell variants are covered in parts 1-4
Status effects vary between temporary ones like Freeze and permanent ones like Adrenaline. You mentioned in your post that you wanting Fear to be permanent.

5) What about a permanent status instead of a taught ability on the target?

Momentum and Immaterial are both active abilities and permanent status effects. This causes the status effect to be vulnerable to lobotimization while permitting it coexisting with a new taught ability (Accelerating Chargers have both a Momentum status and the Acceleration active ability.)

Ah, this would open up many different opportunities. Of course the card must have these abilities already, before Fear is played. I am only unsure of if this card should get any stronger through this tactic. My intention was to make the emotion cards' effects like Bioluminescence, so it could not open up strategies like this. I will need more feedback, but for now I believe it should only be able to be played on vanilla creatures, or cards using effects like Adrenaline that cannot be lobotomized.

6) What about a teaching spell that bestows Fear as a permanent status that is also an active ability?

I am slightly confused about whether I did or did not answer this already in my response to question five.

The activated ability and shield options were discussed in your post.

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Re: Fear | Fear https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35259.msg444360#msg444360
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2012, 05:13:20 am »
@srm359
Another good answer.

I think I did not communicate parts 5&6 well enough.

Consider these three card texts:
Target creature without skill gains the Fear ability.
Target creature without skill gains the Fear status.
Target creature without skill gains the Fear status and ability.

The first is the current version which is vulnerable to Lobotomy (provided the lobotomy source did not target) and would be removed if the creature gained a new active ability later.
The second version of Fear is unaffected by Lobotomy and would not be removed if the creature gained a new active ability later.
The third version is vulnerable to Lobotomy (provided the lobotomy source did not target) but would not be removed if the creature gained a new active ability later.
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Offline Xenocidius

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Re: Fear | Fear https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35259.msg444382#msg444382
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2012, 08:18:20 am »
Your opinion on the third card text is invalid; though 'momentum' is both a status and ability (where the ability does nothing), it is only lobotomizable because it is a special exception in the code. Had Zanz not added that, lobotomy would remove the 'momentum' active ability (which does nothing), but the creature would still keep the momentum status and be able to hit through shields. The reason momentum is both a status and ability is to tip off the player that the status can in fact be lobotomized; purely aesthetic purposes.

In other words, if Fear is a status, you should specify whether it is lobotomizable and therefore has an active ability associated with it (like momentum) or non-lobotomizable and does not have an active ability associated with it (like adrenaline). Either way, the card text should be 'Target creature without skill gains the Fear status.'

In this case, it gives a creature without a skill a skill (Fear), which suggests it should be an ability (lobotomizable) unless you wish to change the effect.

About the card, it seems fairly underpowered. Nearly useless against enemy creatures and nearly useless on your own (as well as only working with a small amount of in-game creatures). What use does it have? It's a cool mechanic though. My suggestion is this: why not have it so that all of the creatures on the target field gain the status 'Fear'? Or just all your creatures, or all your opponent's. Whichever works.
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