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Frosted Mirror | Frosted Mirror https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15708.msg201016#msg201016
« on: November 14, 2010, 02:47:17 pm »
NAME:
Frosted Mirror
ELEMENT:
Water
COST:
3 :water
TYPE:
Permanent
ATK|HP:
TEXT:
:aether :aether :aether : Reflect
Copies all frozen creatures to the other side of the field.
Absorb :water :water :water per turn.
NAME:
Frosted Mirror
ELEMENT:
Water
COST:
2 :water
TYPE:
Permanent
ATK|HP:
TEXT:
:aether :aether :aether : Reflect
Copies all frozen creatures to the other side of the field.
Absorb :water :water :water per turn.
ART:
patchx94
IDEA:
patchx94
NOTES:
Version 2: Cost: 3/2 :water with 3 :water drain per turn. Ability: 3 :aether
Version 1: Cost: 4/3 :water Ability: 2 :aether

To be used with permafrost, congeals, and quints (to unfreeze creatures on your side before reflecting).

So basically, all frozen creatures on the field (Even quinted creatures, I suppose. This needs confirmation.) are copied to the OTHER side (in respect to the original side the original creature is on). Consequently, whenever you use this, only frozen creatures will be summoned. BTW, congealed counts as being frozen.
SERIES:
N/A


Offline PineappleTopic starter

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Re: Frosted Mirror | Frosted Mirror https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15708.msg201046#msg201046
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2010, 03:54:05 pm »
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Re: Frosted Mirror | Frosted Mirror https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15708.msg201085#msg201085
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2010, 05:29:28 pm »
I like it because your frozen creatures would be copied to the enemy as well so it is balanced in that sense.

I don't like it because permafrost is already the most powerful shield in the game and doesn't really need a boost (like this card...)

:water + (3 :water + 3  :aether) is freaking cheap for up to 23 creatures... Also what happens if you don't have enough empty creature slots and you use this card? It just picks the creatures in order?

I think this card would be better if you got to target a frozen creature and it would basically PU just one frozen creature at a time...

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Re: Frosted Mirror | Frosted Mirror https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15708.msg201089#msg201089
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2010, 05:32:17 pm »
Powerful and the effect fits the elements involved perfectly.

If used as a spell (play when lots of creatures are frozen with at least 2 more turns)
Casting Cost + Absorb + Activation = 1 Copy


each copy would be about 4-7 creatures
So that is 6 :water and 3 :aether for 4-7 Copied creatures.

Probably increase the activation cost and absorb to 4-5 each.

I agree with wizelsnarf's suggestion.
You could even cut the activation cost and absorb down to 2 each.
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Re: Frosted Mirror | Frosted Mirror https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15708.msg201092#msg201092
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2010, 05:36:57 pm »
I think it should have an active ability so it's only usable once per turn, but it'd still absorb quantum. Additionaly, increase the cost to play this card to 5/4 so it's more balanced. I mean, it'd still be like PU. You just have to use a Squid to choose the creature you want to duplicate and you can have 6 of these mirrors out..
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Re: Frosted Mirror | Frosted Mirror https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15708.msg201116#msg201116
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2010, 06:19:39 pm »
Well, ice shield costs 6 :water for a 30% freeze chance, and so if there's a monster that you want to duplicate, you would play it once you play the ice shield in case it freezes on its first attack.

So, best case scenario, you use 6 :water + 3*1 :water + 3 :aether = 12 to duplicate 23 creatures, and then wait 3 turns for them to unfreeze, so 21 quanta for 23 creatures.

average case scenario, you use 6 :water + 3*4 :water + 3 :aether = 21 to duplicate three creatures, and then wait 3 turns for them to unfreeze, so 30 quanta for 3 creatures O_O

of course, it's probably very efficient with freezes and squids, but meh.

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Re: Frosted Mirror | Frosted Mirror https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15708.msg201132#msg201132
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2010, 06:50:59 pm »
Well, ice shield costs 6 :water for a 30% freeze chance, and so if there's a monster that you want to duplicate, you would play it once you play the ice shield in case it freezes on its first attack.

So, best case scenario, you use 6 :water + 3*1 :water + 3 :aether = 12 to duplicate 23 creatures, and then wait 3 turns for them to unfreeze, so 21 quanta for 23 creatures.

average case scenario, you use 6 :water + 3*4 :water + 3 :aether = 21 to duplicate three creatures, and then wait 3 turns for them to unfreeze, so 30 quanta for 3 creatures O_O

of course, it's probably very efficient with freezes and squids, but meh.
I think you mean

Average case
6 :water [Ice Shield] + 3 :water [Casting Cost] +3 :water [Absorb] +3 :aether = 12 :water + 3 :aether for N-23 creatures [would hold the mirror in reserve until the threshold N frozen creatures with enough turns remaining is reached]

Best case is 12 :water + 3 :aether to use as a spell to gain 23 creatures. (The mirror does not need to continue to absorb. It can be destroyed either manually or by lack of quanta)

Worse case is 9 :water + 3 :aether + (3 :water per turn) to gain N creatures.

15 quanta for 23 creatures best case is ridiculous. (However that is unlikely)
12 quanta + 3 quanta per turn for N creatures is a fair deal (However still unlikely)
More often it will return between these two values. Between fair and ridiculous is on the too powerful side.
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Re: Frosted Mirror | Frosted Mirror https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15708.msg201143#msg201143
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2010, 07:05:29 pm »
I like the way this works with ice/permafrost shield.

I think the costs (except absorb) could do with going up 1 though.

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Re: Frosted Mirror | Frosted Mirror https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15708.msg201185#msg201185
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2010, 08:02:52 pm »
Well, ice shield costs 6 :water for a 30% freeze chance, and so if there's a monster that you want to duplicate, you would play it once you play the ice shield in case it freezes on its first attack.

So, best case scenario, you use 6 :water + 3*1 :water + 3 :aether = 12 to duplicate 23 creatures, and then wait 3 turns for them to unfreeze, so 21 quanta for 23 creatures.

average case scenario, you use 6 :water + 3*4 :water + 3 :aether = 21 to duplicate three creatures, and then wait 3 turns for them to unfreeze, so 30 quanta for 3 creatures O_O

of course, it's probably very efficient with freezes and squids, but meh.
I think you mean

Average case
6 :water [Ice Shield] + 3 :water [Casting Cost] +3 :water [Absorb] +3 :aether = 12 :water + 3 :aether for N-23 creatures [would hold the mirror in reserve until the threshold N frozen creatures with enough turns remaining is reached]

Best case is 12 :water + 3 :aether to use as a spell to gain 23 creatures. (The mirror does not need to continue to absorb. It can be destroyed either manually or by lack of quanta)

Worse case is 9 :water + 3 :aether + (3 :water per turn) to gain N creatures.

15 quanta for 23 creatures best case is ridiculous. (However that is unlikely)
12 quanta + 3 quanta per turn for N creatures is a fair deal (However still unlikely)
More often it will return between these two values. Between fair and ridiculous is on the too powerful side.
Okay, wait. Have you ever had more than 2/6 creatures frozen at one time from an ice shield alone? I haven't...

Destroying it manually would mean dabbling in fire quanta for deflagrations/explosions, and this is already a water-aether duo. If you run out of water quanta, you wouldn't be able to have used water quanta for extra stuff. So basically, you won't be able to use a water stall if you plan on having no quanta for it to destroy itself. In that case, you'll have half the opponent's monsters on your side of the field, and when your monsters unfreeze, so will your opponents'.

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Re: Frosted Mirror | Frosted Mirror https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15708.msg201206#msg201206
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2010, 08:33:16 pm »
Well, ice shield costs 6 :water for a 30% freeze chance, and so if there's a monster that you want to duplicate, you would play it once you play the ice shield in case it freezes on its first attack.

So, best case scenario, you use 6 :water + 3*1 :water + 3 :aether = 12 to duplicate 23 creatures, and then wait 3 turns for them to unfreeze, so 21 quanta for 23 creatures.

average case scenario, you use 6 :water + 3*4 :water + 3 :aether = 21 to duplicate three creatures, and then wait 3 turns for them to unfreeze, so 30 quanta for 3 creatures O_O

of course, it's probably very efficient with freezes and squids, but meh.
I think you mean

Average case
6 :water [Ice Shield] + 3 :water [Casting Cost] +3 :water [Absorb] +3 :aether = 12 :water + 3 :aether for N-23 creatures [would hold the mirror in reserve until the threshold N frozen creatures with enough turns remaining is reached]

Best case is 12 :water + 3 :aether to use as a spell to gain 23 creatures. (The mirror does not need to continue to absorb. It can be destroyed either manually or by lack of quanta)

Worse case is 9 :water + 3 :aether + (3 :water per turn) to gain N creatures.

15 quanta for 23 creatures best case is ridiculous. (However that is unlikely)
12 quanta + 3 quanta per turn for N creatures is a fair deal (However still unlikely)
More often it will return between these two values. Between fair and ridiculous is on the too powerful side.
Okay, wait. Have you ever had more than 2/6 creatures frozen at one time from an ice shield alone? I haven't...

Destroying it manually would mean dabbling in fire quanta for deflagrations/explosions, and this is already a water-aether duo. If you run out of water quanta, you wouldn't be able to have used water quanta for extra stuff. So basically, you won't be able to use a water stall if you plan on having no quanta for it to destroy itself. In that case, you'll have half the opponent's monsters on your side of the field, and when your monsters unfreeze, so will your opponents'.
No I haven't had more than 6 frozen. (I included the absolute maximums and minimums not the likely results)
The manual destroy was a comment about a rainbow spell-like useage. The run out a quanta was refering to a tactical low QI and variable quanta levels probably by including squids.

In my examples I was assuming the duo tactic would be to use
Aether Mark
Water Pillars
Squids for additional freezes and for control of water quanta levels
Ice Shield for heap mass (2-6) frozen per turn
Mirrors for primary win condition
(assorted other cards)

So the user would wait until there was going to be a sufficient advantage from playing the mirror. Then play the mirror. Then uses squids to reduce water quanta level to below 3 and freeze extra targets. Then uses mirror to gain more creatures but without having to pay the absorb per turn.

Ideally this lockdown would have high water quanta costs per turn so very little effort would be needed to achieve the lack of quanta needed to cheat the absorb.

So if I wait until there are 3 creatures that are frozen with enough turns left to be reflected.
Then I will get those 3 + 30% of the rest + 2 more from arctic squid to lower water quanta

6 :water [Ice Shield] + 6 :water [arctic squid freezes] + 3 :water [mirror casting cost] + 3 :water [Absorb] + 2 :water [last absorb] +3 :aether [activation cost]

20 :water + 3 :aether for ~ 6 creatures that have approximate thaw times of 2 turns (if thaw times are conserved)
That is about 4 quanta per creature about half of Twin Universe. (assuming card advantage and lack of ideal targeting cancel each other out)
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Offline PineappleTopic starter

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Re: Frosted Mirror | Frosted Mirror https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15708.msg201275#msg201275
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2010, 10:18:48 pm »
Well, ice shield costs 6 :water for a 30% freeze chance, and so if there's a monster that you want to duplicate, you would play it once you play the ice shield in case it freezes on its first attack.

So, best case scenario, you use 6 :water + 3*1 :water + 3 :aether = 12 to duplicate 23 creatures, and then wait 3 turns for them to unfreeze, so 21 quanta for 23 creatures.

average case scenario, you use 6 :water + 3*4 :water + 3 :aether = 21 to duplicate three creatures, and then wait 3 turns for them to unfreeze, so 30 quanta for 3 creatures O_O

of course, it's probably very efficient with freezes and squids, but meh.
I think you mean

Average case
6 :water [Ice Shield] + 3 :water [Casting Cost] +3 :water [Absorb] +3 :aether = 12 :water + 3 :aether for N-23 creatures [would hold the mirror in reserve until the threshold N frozen creatures with enough turns remaining is reached]

Best case is 12 :water + 3 :aether to use as a spell to gain 23 creatures. (The mirror does not need to continue to absorb. It can be destroyed either manually or by lack of quanta)

Worse case is 9 :water + 3 :aether + (3 :water per turn) to gain N creatures.

15 quanta for 23 creatures best case is ridiculous. (However that is unlikely)
12 quanta + 3 quanta per turn for N creatures is a fair deal (However still unlikely)
More often it will return between these two values. Between fair and ridiculous is on the too powerful side.
Okay, wait. Have you ever had more than 2/6 creatures frozen at one time from an ice shield alone? I haven't...

Destroying it manually would mean dabbling in fire quanta for deflagrations/explosions, and this is already a water-aether duo. If you run out of water quanta, you wouldn't be able to have used water quanta for extra stuff. So basically, you won't be able to use a water stall if you plan on having no quanta for it to destroy itself. In that case, you'll have half the opponent's monsters on your side of the field, and when your monsters unfreeze, so will your opponents'.
No I haven't had more than 6 frozen. (I included the absolute maximums and minimums not the likely results)
The manual destroy was a comment about a rainbow spell-like useage. The run out a quanta was refering to a tactical low QI and variable quanta levels probably by including squids.

In my examples I was assuming the duo tactic would be to use
Aether Mark
Water Pillars
Squids for additional freezes and for control of water quanta levels
Ice Shield for heap mass (2-6) frozen per turn
Mirrors for primary win condition
(assorted other cards)

So the user would wait until there was going to be a sufficient advantage from playing the mirror. Then play the mirror. Then uses squids to reduce water quanta level to below 3 and freeze extra targets. Then uses mirror to gain more creatures but without having to pay the absorb per turn.

Ideally this lockdown would have high water quanta costs per turn so very little effort would be needed to achieve the lack of quanta needed to cheat the absorb.

So if I wait until there are 3 creatures that are frozen with enough turns left to be reflected.
Then I will get those 3 + 30% of the rest + 2 more from arctic squid to lower water quanta

6 :water [Ice Shield] + 6 :water [arctic squid freezes] + 3 :water [mirror casting cost] + 3 :water [Absorb] + 2 :water [last absorb] +3 :aether [activation cost]

20 :water + 3 :aether for ~ 6 creatures that have approximate thaw times of 2 turns (if thaw times are conserved)
That is about 4 quanta per creature about half of Twin Universe. (assuming card advantage and lack of ideal targeting cancel each other out)
six creatures? that's like 4 freezes, so you'd have to save up your freezes until late-game, when you'd probably be dead by then.
Or, if you're going the squid route, each squid costs 3 :water to play and 3 :water per freeze, so lets move everything up to congeal to better fit the "mass TU" theory.

permafrost and octopus in play.
octopus congeals one monster [3 quanta]
octopus congeals another monster [3 quanta]
mirror played and drains [5 quanta]
reflect activated [3 aether quanta]

7 :water [permafrost] + 9 :water [1 octopus congealing 2 monsters] + 3 :water [mirror played] + 3 :water [mirror absorbs] + 3 :aether [activation cost] = 25 quanta for maybe 4 monsters. taking in the fact that octos can easily be CC'd and the delay between the copying and the actual use, i think it's pretty fair.

Also, I still think there's no way to "cheat the absorb." To make it last past the first turn (so you can activate the ability), you need at least 5 :water before you play it. So, it'd have to be like 3 :water per turn, save for one turn, summon--or congeal with--an octo the next turn to cheat and use ability. To me, 3 :water per turn doesn't sound like a good stall to me..

Give me the EXACT numbers, cards, and strategy for a deck using mirrors and then we can go all medieval pen-and-paper on Frosted Mirror's ass. :D

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Re: Frosted Mirror | Frosted Mirror https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15708.msg201311#msg201311
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2010, 10:49:45 pm »
I'm not a good deck builder but here is an unupped deck. Improve it to your standards and you have your testing decks.

(http://helltgivre.free.fr/elements/?mark=4su&deck=z65i4z35i7z45i9z45ibz45ifz45jmz45l8z2621)

light pillars are mirrors

Specific Strategy (you can improve this too)

Use squids to lock opponent's offense down.
Try to keep 1 squid in hand until you can quint it.

Once you draw the mirror, setup a situation where as much quanta value can be captured on the turn the mirror is activated.

Their top 2 unfrozen creatures can be frozen with the quinted squid so you just have to wait until they have 3 more frozen and then play the mirror. Remember to accelerate your quanta expenditure so that you have less than 3 water quanta when the mirror is on its 2nd absorb.


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