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Offline plastiqeTopic starter

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Stratego https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13994.msg176692#msg176692
« on: October 15, 2010, 02:57:05 am »

Pound for pound this is probably our best card.  The other teams know we have it, but even still they will be using permanents.  If it's anything like last war team Darkness faced things like Discord and Ice Shield played against us.  Aether and Earth could counter with Protected Aether type decks.


Our rather expensive hax shield.  This along with Drain Life are our main source of CC, and that is probably our weakest point as an element.  I expect we should farm out for some stuff like Rage Pots/Lightning to make up the difference.

Our main creatures all start off at low HP.  Devourer (2), Lycan (1) Vamp (2) Gargoyle (3) Dragon (5).  I expect the other teams to make good use of CC against us, including the..

..Top 5 Anti-Darkness Cards


With larger vaults we'll likely see most if not all teams packing Holy Lights, which sucks.  We can counter using creatures of other elements and a quinted dragons deck akin to what team Entropy used in the last war.  Momentum should probably be used against Death to counter the Bone Walls.

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Re: Stratego https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13994.msg176726#msg176726
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2010, 03:57:20 am »
Thanks for starting this thread plastique! :) It looks good so far...


I think that Nightmare will actually play an important role in the war due to its denial potential - putting it on a semi-useless creature, such as Pests would probably irritate the enemy depending on the deck. What's your opinion on Voodoo Doll? (Do you think we can make a Basilisk Blood + Voodoo + Gravity Pull deck? Or would that be far too complicated to work?



On another note - people would be expecting us to use the following cards because of their massive synergy with Darkness, so we might have to avoid using them because of the other tactics/counters people will be taking against them...


Offline plastiqeTopic starter

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Re: Stratego https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13994.msg176740#msg176740
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2010, 04:14:24 am »
Earthquakes we should for sure take 12x.  Since almost all decks will be 50/50, pillar denial is an excellent strategy, especially against elements that need a lot of quanta to function like Aether, Light, Air etc.  Plus upped Quicksands are fantastic for Kael's decks.

Fractal is more iffy, in the right matchup a Fractal Devourer deck could dominate, but it is rather slow to develop unupped.  Fractal Gargoyle rush could also be a possibility but we really have to guess right for Fractal to work.

Adrenaline I'm not so sure on.  Adrenaline Vamps are weak and easy to kill, and even if we're using them against death to counter Bone Walls poison will ruin them.

I have messed around with Voodoo Dolls and I haven't found anything that I like yet.  I find that it takes too many cards to get them doing any damage, you're basically devoting the whole deck to the dolls.  If anybody has a really good Voodoo Doll deck I invite you to show it though.

Nightmare is gonna be a good sideboard card that we should hold 2-3 for later on when we've narrowed down who is likely to bring a Fractal deck against us.

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Re: Stratego https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13994.msg176757#msg176757
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2010, 04:58:16 am »
just putting down what comes to mind right now...

i think we should avoid adren-vamp at all cost, they're too fragile for what they do and you need another element to protect them

doll deck needs at least 3 element to work
and the best one uses 4 (aether/gravity/earth/darkness) and are prone to bad draws and the worse kind of CC, rewind effect

i have no doubt people will be packing EQ against us as they will be expecting fractal of some kind

EA vs us due to EQ and steals on our part (not a big concern if we counter their meta by not packing any)

they will have some expectation and the best way is to come up with something they totally didnt see coming like darkness/light, darkness/air, darkness/water or darkness heavy rainbow or poison rush (darkness/death)

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Re: Stratego https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13994.msg176841#msg176841
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2010, 07:47:52 am »
Earthquake might be one of the most important off-element cards for our decks, they know we'll pack devourers, and the only way to deal with burrowed devourers is to pack on a lot of pillars.

Fractal pest is powerful, fractal devourers less so, since they are so vulnerable to mass CC.

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Re: Stratego https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13994.msg177793#msg177793
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2010, 06:21:46 pm »
We also need to not over think our counters, and counter-counters.  Sure everyone knows that we have devourers, and dark decks like to synergize with earthquakes, discords, reverse time, and the like.  But those are not simple strategies to stop.  Mass CC that would kill multiple devourers and hurt our card economy (meaning getting better than a 1 card for 1 card trade) is either expensive (RoF) or requires a permanent (Owl's eye).  Devourers are out for 2, and start slowing their ability to get that quanta right off.  Permanents can, and will, be stolen.

Holy Light is just absurd in this environment.  Every team can take six copies of a one quanta cost card that can instantly kill (twice over even) any Darkness creature we field.  That either puts 50% of our deck into a support role, and our permanents are not game changers, makes us gamble on them not using the most obvious cards against us, or forces our highly efficient, creature based damage sources into other elements.  Quite a disadvantage against everyone right off the bat that we have to build around a high power, low cost, anti-Death/Darkness card, for which there is no equivalent counter card for.


Offline plastiqeTopic starter

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Re: Stratego https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13994.msg178448#msg178448
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2010, 05:49:17 pm »
Myself and Kuroaitou did a bunch of deck vs deck testing this morning. 

Against a mono Entropy (one of our most difficult matchups) I think our best bet is Aether/Darkness to make use of Lightning against their dragons, Qintessence against their Antimatter and Steal against their Discord and Dis Shield.

Our Earth/Darkness with quicksands worked like a charm against a couple high quanta elements like Light.

Voodoo Dolls haven't been working as an anti-rush strategy.. as much as I wish they would.


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Re: Stratego https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13994.msg179152#msg179152
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2010, 05:49:13 pm »
Voodoo Dolls... As much as I like the idea of a 16 health (Holy Lightproof) Darkness creature, I have never been able to make them as effective as I would like.

Probably because, like a number of the scorpions, they require a second card to make them useful.  Generally using up 12 card slots in a deck, and creating opportunities for the opponent to gain card advantage with freeze, reverse time, etc., and generally slowing things down.

Playstyle-wise, I prefer either more aggression or more control.  Dolls seem inherently reactive, and while they can delay enemy threats, they don't remove them.  I am still looking for a deck that feels strong with them in it.

On the other hand I love quanta control.  I agree entirely with plastiques observation about high quanta opponents.  Earthquakes I use in almost all of my serious decks that use earth (unless I am expecting speed rainbows/cremation).  The Devourer/Earthquake combo is one of my favorites, and I think that both Devourer/Earthquake and Devourer/Discord are strong options against any of the opponents that are building decks under war rules, with the possible exception of Underworld and Fire.

I haven't found that I require a full 6 earthquakes in these kinds of decks.  Usually 4 is enough to get one in time to play it early.  Generally the slowdown from early pillar loss is enough to swing the game.  I don't usually feel that I need to destroy every pillar/pend played for the entire game.  I'd like to hear other folks' experience with it though.

Also worth noting, that if I was fighting Darkness, I would always assume they were going to try to use Devourers and Steal.  I would try to tweak my anti-Darkness decks accordingly.  Thinking about Nova, or a couple quantum pillars, to try to blunt their effectiveness.  Also thinking about permanents, I'd expect to see anything important to have Enchant Artifact on it, or for people to push the creatures and spells, and not rely on permanents for key deck components.

A handful of Novas are easy to splash in for any opponent, and gives them fast and easy access to Holy Light, Reflective Shield (stealproof, and saves the player from Drain Life), etc., and a single Nova mitigates 12 turns of quanta drain from a Devourer.  Just some things to think about.

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Re: Stratego https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13994.msg179245#msg179245
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2010, 08:23:18 pm »
I do quite like Lycanthropes in this format. 

Most of the darkness-heavy decks that I have played have been to take advantage of the Devourer synergy with other quanta disruption.  Like Earthquakes and Discord.  The Discord/Devourer combos also allows easy access to Lycanthropes, who are Holy Lightproof, and provide a cheap, six attack hitter that can take advantage of the quanta delays we should be hitting the opponents with.  Only their first turn vulnerability to creature control is an issue.

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Re: Stratego https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13994.msg179304#msg179304
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2010, 09:14:54 pm »
My thoughts on the listed Top5 Anti-Darkness Cards.

Disclaimer: As always I am thinking out loud to encourage thought and discussion.  Not as a firm opinion that I think must be followed.

Disclaimer 2:  My Darkness thinking is overly-Devourer related.  I'm the first to admit it.

Reign of Fire:  Brutal, agreed.  Immolation makes it worse, because it can come out even in the face of good quanta control.  Otherwise I'd worry about it in a non-quanta controlling deck, but not that much in a quanta control deck.  Dark/Earth should be able to not only Earthquake mana sources, but provide Devourers the ability to burrow, and Gargoyles the ability to become defensive powerhouses.  Of course, Immolation can't be ignored, so Reign of Fire will have to be considered.

Bone Wall:  If our creatures weren't so easy to kill, this would be less of an issue.  A Nightfall out helps Devourers eat this up.  The rest of our creatures... meh.  Bloodsuckers are super easy to kill en masse', and their ability just helps fuel the wall.  Steal, and all other permanent control, just sucks vs. this wall.  It's rough, no doubt.  It is expensive though at seven cost, so a quanta control strategy should minimize it's appearance.  Death doesn't have a way to generate cheap Death quanta.

Maxwell's Demon:  Outside of a quinted one, this creature doesn't bother me much here.  Anyone that is in the initial damage range for Drain Life (2 Damage), I wouldn't generally worry about overmuch.  Almost any creature control can kill this guy for a lot less than his cost.

Antimatter:  Only a concern for me with a non-quanta control deck.  With quanta control, I would not expect to see an 8 casting cost card come out to bother me.  I'd have to feel very confident in my fast quanta production and creature control before I'd feel good about fighting a Darkness deck with an 8 casting cost card, regardless of it's excellent synergy against Vamprism.

Holy Light:  [rant] Let see.  A one light casting cost card that destroys every single darkness creature on the turn that it hits the table with the exception of Voodoo Doll... a creature with 0 attack which requires a second card to be made effective.  Death and Darkness are at a massive disadvantage because of this single, lopsided, no-counter, card.  I have no suggestions for this card.  It's underused and almost useless in regular play, and it is entirely overpowered and unstoppable in an event like this for Death and Darkness.  I am open to suggestions.  As it is, this single card is a massive impediment to Death and Darkness deckbuilding strategies.  Not being able to use any creatures from your element (Voodoo Doll and it's 0 attack notwithstanding) seems like a pretty brutal disadvantage. [/rant]

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Re: Stratego https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13994.msg179432#msg179432
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2010, 11:42:42 pm »
Since General gets 6 and Lt. gets 3, which cards give us the best bang for the buck upgraded?

    Black Dragons becomes a 12/6, 6hp being an important breakpoint as it gets you past lightning and rage pots.Minor Vampire becomes a 4/3, I think the vamps are much more worthwhile upgraded.Gargoyle becomes a 7/3 for the same cost, not a bad bump in attack power there.Pest becomes 0/4, 2 extra hit points are nice for surviving RoF among other things.Eclipse becomes +2/+1, worth the upgrade in fractal devourer over pest?
    Graboid turns into a 10/4 Shrieker and the cost stays the same, this is the best creature in the game.Basilisk Blood, Lightning and Reverse Time all cost 1 quanta upped, these are the best bargains for single target CC in the game.

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Re: Stratego https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13994.msg179591#msg179591
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2010, 02:45:35 am »
Since General gets 6 and Lt. gets 3, which cards give us the best bang for the buck upgraded?
EQ cost 2 :earth instead of 3 :earth
Dusk cost 4 :darkness instead of 6 :darkness
Antimatter cost 6 :entropy instead of 8 :entropy

we have no permanent that get ability reduction cost upgraded (like pulverizer or hourglass) and the closest is Lycan which is already fine as is

 

anything
blarg: