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cipher_nemo

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Multi-mark cards (multicolor) the can produce combos https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1129.msg10829#msg10829
« on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:20 pm »

I know this has probably already been discussed before, but I'd like to take the topic further.

I think one of the biggest drawbacks in promoting unique decks for Elements is its strict single quanta type cost for cards. Sure, some cards have one quanta type for casting and another for abilities, but there are no multicolor cards for casting costs.

Providing a range of these cards gives Elements the ability to have some interesting multicolor decks without going complete rainbow. Right now, Rainbow is pretty much the way to go for any total control deck since mutation/improved mutation is a powerful control-all factor at end-game of any match. And using random abilities means needed random types of quanta.

But what if we could create control decks with just two or three colors? This would lessen seeing Quantum Pillars/Towers all the time, and give us some flexibility in deck building. Elements is mostly about strategy, with a little bit of deck building. But increasing the range of possible good decks will help add some variety in PvP and end-game.

Here's one example I'll share. By itself this card is almost worthless, but when combined with Eternity it becomes interesting. Still not powerful, but it opens up combos with future cards.



chriskang

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Multi-mark cards (multicolor) the can produce combos https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1129.msg10830#msg10830
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:20 pm »

Sorry to kill your expectations but it's just impossible with the current database design.
This would require a complete rewrite of all the current cards code. I seriously doubt you'll ever see something like that in a near future.

It might be interesting though.

cipher_nemo

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Multi-mark cards (multicolor) the can produce combos https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1129.msg10831#msg10831
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:20 pm »

Sorry to kill your expectations but it's just impossible with the current database design.
This would require a complete rewrite of all the current cards code. I seriously doubt you'll ever see something like that in a near future.

It might be interesting though.
There are always creative ways to do this. ;)

First, if the current database has an Int value for a card's cost, then that column can be changed to a string. It wouldn't affect existing data and you could create a system for storing quanta of other types (than the card's primary type).

But a better method...

Just add two new columns in the database. If you call the quanta cost something like "Card Cost" and "Card Mark", then you'd just make two new columns as "Card Cost2" and "Card Mark2". Then handle nulls. If a card has nulls for these columns, then you just treat it as a single color card. Easy.

chriskang

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Multi-mark cards (multicolor) the can produce combos https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1129.msg10832#msg10832
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:20 pm »

I don't want to fight.
If you think it's easy, you're probably right.

You might just have forgotten that:
* you have to create 2 new columns for summon cost AND 2 new columns for skill cost.
* those 4 columns have to be created in the database AND in every structure that can potentially receive informations from the database: creatures, permanents, weapons, shields (that's already 20 columns).
* every piece of code that checks if a card can be played or not has to be modified to handle the new columns. This includes the code that puts a white background behind your card if you have enough quantum to play it, the code that is executed when you click the card, the code used by the AI to decide if it plays the card not, the code that removes quantum from your opponent's pool when he plays the card in PvP, and there's probably much more that I forgot.
* every piece of code that checks if a skill can be activated has to be modified. Of course, those checks are different from one side to the other (because you don't look inside the same quantum pool) and from one card type to the other (because it would completely overload the engine to check for every skill with every card).
* the AI rules to decide if a card has to be played or not have to be modified. Currently, a skill like "queen" is cast if CPU has at least 5 life quantums. What's the condition to cast a multi-mark card? Do we need to have 2.5 times the quantum requirement in both elements? Is it enough to have 3 fire & 2 aether to cast a "1 fire/1 aether" skill? This point alone probably needs several hours of testing.
* the AI1 deck generation algorithm has to be modified, because this algorithm picks 1 random card and 1 corresponding pillar at the same time. What pillar should it choose with multi-mark cards?
* the code that gives quantum back when you cancel a move has to be modified.
* many spells that deal with skills and skills costs have to be rewritten to handle the new columns (like Lobotomize, Parallel Universe or Mutation).

After those little things are done you'll be happy to have a tiny testing moment.
And pray that the lag introduced by those changes doesn't kill your game.

Evil Hamster

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Multi-mark cards (multicolor) the can produce combos https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1129.msg10833#msg10833
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:20 pm »

So all that should take what? About 5 minutes?

 :P

cipher_nemo

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Multi-mark cards (multicolor) the can produce combos https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1129.msg10834#msg10834
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:20 pm »

I don't want to fight.
If you think it's easy, you're probably right.
Oh, just discussing it. :) I am a software engineer after all, and I do a mixture of web apps and Windows apps, but no games.

You might just have forgotten that:
* you have to create 2 new columns for summon cost AND 2 new columns for skill cost.
Not a big deal in terms of database work.

* those 4 columns have to be created in the database AND in every structure that can potentially receive informations from the database: creatures, permanents, weapons, shields (that's already 20 columns).
Typically applications retrieve the information they need once. Applications shouldn't be retrieving information all of the time from a database unless they're as complicated as an MMO. As you've noticed from Saving, Confirming, and Confirmed status (and when you're offline), the Elements games retrieves data all at once from the database. Once code has that data, it can keep it and use it however it needs.

* every piece of code that checks if a card can be played or not has to be modified to handle the new columns. This includes the code that puts a white background behind your card if you have enough quantum to play it, the code that is executed when you click the card, the code used by the AI to decide if it plays the card not, the code that removes quantum from your opponent's pool when he plays the card in PvP, and there's probably much more that I forgot.
* every piece of code that checks if a skill can be activated has to be modified. Of course, those checks are different from one side to the other (because you don't look inside the same quantum pool) and from one card type to the other (because it would completely overload the engine to check for every skill with every card).
* the AI rules to decide if a card has to be played or not have to be modified. Currently, a skill like "queen" is cast if CPU has at least 5 life quantums. What's the condition to cast a multi-mark card? Do we need to have 2.5 times the quantum requirement in both elements? Is it enough to have 3 fire & 2 aether to cast a "1 fire/1 aether" skill? This point alone probably needs several hours of testing.
* the AI1 deck generation algorithm has to be modified, because this algorithm picks 1 random card and 1 corresponding pillar at the same time. What pillar should it choose with multi-mark cards?
* the code that gives quantum back when you cancel a move has to be modified.
* many spells that deal with skills and skills costs have to be rewritten to handle the new columns (like Lobotomize, Parallel Universe or Mutation).
Most of the game should be object-oriented, ie: classes. So checking things should be modular. But I have no idea how he wrote his flash application. Hopefully he created a modular, class-oriented code so that he doesn't have to repeat certain functions over and over again in code.

After those little things are done you'll be happy to have a tiny testing moment.
And pray that the lag introduced by those changes doesn't kill your game.
It's all part of coding and application development. Apparently there will be an update to Elements later this year, and I'm sure new cards and some app tweaks and fixes will be done. Personally I don't understand why you're worrying about suggestions to the game that you didn't write. :)

So all that should take what? About 5 minutes?

 :P
LOL. Well, good point, but probably more like a couple of hours. Still, a drop in the bucket. ;)

YoYoBro

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Multi-mark cards (multicolor) the can produce combos https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1129.msg10835#msg10835
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:20 pm »

Personally I find a multi-color cards a very intresting idea... more power to bi-color decks, I say! And I hope Zan reads all the purposes we post on this forum, lol >_>

Offline Bloodshadow

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Multi-mark cards (multicolor) the can produce combos https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1129.msg10836#msg10836
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:20 pm »

Personally, I disagree with this idea. It'll just strengthen rainbow further and weakening mono decks even more. Don't forget that rainbow can assimilate everything into itself. And no, I do NOT want Quantum Pillars removed; that is just plain NO.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

cipher_nemo

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Multi-mark cards (multicolor) the can produce combos https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1129.msg10837#msg10837
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:20 pm »

Personally, I disagree with this idea. It'll just strengthen rainbow further and weakening mono decks even more. Don't forget that rainbow can assimilate everything into itself. And no, I do NOT want Quantum Pillars removed; that is just plain NO.
Who said anything about removing Quantum Pillars in this thread? No one.

As for rainbow, it's already the end-game deck style to use. Mono isn't end game. Even dual color isn't end-game. Multicolor cards would make dual color decks more powerful.

Offline coinich

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Multi-mark cards (multicolor) the can produce combos https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1129.msg10838#msg10838
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:20 pm »

Personally, I disagree with this idea. It'll just strengthen rainbow further and weakening mono decks even more. Don't forget that rainbow can assimilate everything into itself. And no, I do NOT want Quantum Pillars removed; that is just plain NO.
I fail to see how these multicolor cards will stengthen rainbow; they would now have two types of quanta to fill.  Not a major factor midgame, but in the beginning it could be frustrating.

Offline Bloodshadow

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Multi-mark cards (multicolor) the can produce combos https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1129.msg10839#msg10839
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:20 pm »

I'm trying to promote MONO decks, not dual or rainbow. Mono decks are underpowered enough already.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

cipher_nemo

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Multi-mark cards (multicolor) the can produce combos https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1129.msg10840#msg10840
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:20 pm »

I'm trying to promote MONO decks, not dual or rainbow. Mono decks are underpowered enough already.
They are very much underpowered in PvP and against the AI end-game. If you want to promote more mono decks, why don't you put out some more mono ideas instead of bashing multi-color? Right now, Rainbow is by far the most powerful in Elements. Both dual-color and mono decks need help.

And you know, any card you make has the potential to help rainbow, regardless of whether it's mono or multi-colored.

 

blarg: