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Elements the Game => Card Ideas and Art => Project Factory => Topic started by: AD TienzuStorm on July 30, 2015, 08:29:58 am

Title: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: AD TienzuStorm on July 30, 2015, 08:29:58 am
With the new Project Factory allowing everybody to post here, I think that it would be appropriate to see what the people outside of the select few who were allowed to post here want to do for a project.

Some ideas off the top of my head:

Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on July 30, 2015, 08:39:44 am
I'd be interested in starting a project regarding implementing Void into Cygnia through a development team of designers, since the present levels systems favors singles over series. Would anyone like to see a thread about that?
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: OldTrees on July 30, 2015, 06:53:34 pm
I would favor a structural change of some kind(void, a new status effect, tactical positioning/terrain, ...) which would probably require a series rather than a single card.

However I would advise against void, it is extremely hard to balance in part to its power being unintuitive in magnitude if not in kind.
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on July 30, 2015, 06:58:22 pm
I would favor a structural change of some kind(void, a new status effect, tactical positioning/terrain, ...) which would probably require a series rather than a single card.

However I would advise against void, it is extremely hard to balance in part to its power being unintuitive in magnitude if not in kind.
The combined flavor and mechanics are so attractive though, even long after the cards have become obscure, which is why I've stuck by it.

That being said, I'm willing to start with terrain effects/positioning and/or Mirror Pseuoquanta as less complex alternatives.
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: dracomageat on July 30, 2015, 08:54:45 pm
As the original Master of Void, I am well and truly in favour of its implimentation and, as a WotC approved Beta tester, I will play the hell out of it to balance and bug find should you need me to.
That said though, AoE also greatly interests me.
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: Solaris on July 30, 2015, 08:57:24 pm
"Define what exactly is taboo in card design and what is merely discouraged" As an avid card designer, I'd love to tackle this project. I'm a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to things, and I don't like to post half baked card ideas :P
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on July 30, 2015, 09:11:48 pm
"Define what exactly is taboo in card design and what is merely discouraged" As an avid card designer, I'd love to tackle this project. I'm a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to things, and I don't like to post half baked card ideas :P
By all means, you're welcome to start a thread for it in Project Factory. ^^

As the original Master of Void, I am well and truly in favour of its implimentation and, as a WotC approved Beta tester, I will play the hell out of it to balance and bug find should you need me to.
That said though, AoE also greatly interests me.
What do you mean by AoE?
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: serprex on July 30, 2015, 09:18:10 pm
oetg did void series as a half joke. Haven't come up with a void spell (http://imgur.com/ZBLmkG6,VTwl9IK,sJ20wau,LHf8ghZ)
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: dragtom on July 30, 2015, 09:25:36 pm
I'd like 13th element for no apparant reason.
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on July 30, 2015, 09:30:27 pm
I'd like 13th element for no apparant reason.
Could be done, though Cygnia may have to do some half-graceful fixes because of it.  As I've discussed in chat a "13th Element slot" similar to Spectromancer's class system may be viable in terms of design.
oetg did void series as a half joke. Haven't come up with a void spell (http://imgur.com/ZBLmkG6,VTwl9IK,sJ20wau,LHf8ghZ)

Shark of Void made my day right there.

Case in point of how directly implementing a series works better than just letting cards trickle though the levels system one at a time, IMHO. We should probably also distinguish between cards costing Void Pseudoquanta and Void being used to represent "loss of Max HP".
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: dracomageat on July 30, 2015, 10:12:58 pm
What do you mean by AoE?

Basically anything that affects a specific area, be it bolts that effect nearby creatures or simply more flooding type effects. Even creatures that go where you put them.
Anything that deals with the barely explored mechanic of positioning.
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: AD TienzuStorm on July 30, 2015, 11:10:41 pm
Yeah, I would like it if we could have a series of a under explored mechanic so that they can actually get in game and break out of the cycle.

Positioning is probably what I would suggest, although things working with airborne could work too.
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on July 30, 2015, 11:28:57 pm
Seems like we're sliding towards a development interest in a position/field/AoE based series, then. Does 1 card for each element sound like a good baseline?
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: AD TienzuStorm on July 30, 2015, 11:34:12 pm
Seems like we're sliding towards a development interest in a position/field/AoE based series, then. Does 1 card for each element sound like a good baseline?


That begs the question on "do we want every element to have CC"

Although I suppose the elements where CC is generally discouraged (namely Life and Light) could just have the more passive ones like "move target creature one slot to the left" or something (except, ya'know, actually a bit more useful).
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: dracomageat on July 31, 2015, 12:07:56 am
More like "Blinding Light 3 :light Creatures in target row are delayed for a turn."
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: OldTrees on July 31, 2015, 01:05:17 am
Seems like we're sliding towards a development interest in a position/field/AoE based series, then. Does 1 card for each element sound like a good baseline?
1 card per X is a card series trap we should avoid unless we coincidentally arrive at that conclusion as a result of development. If we opt for this kind of project, I would think the specific project would determine the amount and distribution necessary to add the concept. I would make a low estimate of 15 cards added in 2 waves(to gather further playtesting data as Zanz did).

A position matters based series would be looking to implement:
Terrain(minor and major), Auras, Minor AoEs(burst, column, cone?), Tactical Movement, and thing's I haven't thought of. (Might even entail a feature added to creatures in general)

This should be broad enough to grant potential to every element but that does not mean that a thin spread would be a good initial addition. The CIA can cover holes via the promotion of single cards afterwards.

"Define what exactly is taboo in card design and what is merely discouraged" As an avid card designer, I'd love to tackle this project. I'm a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to things, and I don't like to post half baked card ideas :P
I feel this has been covered already although buried with age. It basically is:
Taboo: Graveyard(Zanz: we can do better)
Severely discouraged: Instant Kill without considering a defense(exceptions exist in game), Multi element costs(due to the necessity for coding change and the card cost to implement fully with 12 elements)
Merely discouraged: Target the untargetable and other X the unXable language abuses(but Shard of Wisdom exists)
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: andretimpa on July 31, 2015, 02:28:00 am
Another taboo that is silly imo is multi targetting
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: OldTrees on July 31, 2015, 04:06:11 am
Another taboo that is silly imo is multi targetting
I knew I missed one. Although I would mark that as Severely Discouraged. The reason against it was the rapid clicking exploit. So it is a non trivial programming problem rather than a full Taboo.
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on July 31, 2015, 04:17:49 am
Worth noting that Cygnia suffers from less programming restrictions than EtG does - the example Fippe gave me is that it'd be fairly simple for a "prison"-esque card in Cygnia to store all the "data" of a creature, and even multiple creatures if needed. Hybrid/Pseudoquanta/etc... would require the creation of a new cost object defining what the card drains - it may be time-consuming but I think it falls within the realm of doable given enough combined effort.
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: AD TienzuStorm on July 31, 2015, 05:12:21 am
Isn't "remove immortality" a taboo thing too? I mean, even if it's severely discouraged, you might as well put it in taboo considering how quickly the community shoots those ideas down.
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on July 31, 2015, 05:17:32 am
Isn't "remove immortality" a taboo thing too? I mean, even if it's severely discouraged, you might as well put it in taboo considering how quickly the community shoots those ideas down.
Just because the community shoots it down constantly doesn't mean it deserves to be shot down (slot moving for example). Remove immortality should be warned against though because it starts devaluing it as a mechanic.
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: AD TienzuStorm on July 31, 2015, 05:23:19 am
Isn't "remove immortality" a taboo thing too? I mean, even if it's severely discouraged, you might as well put it in taboo considering how quickly the community shoots those ideas down.
Just because the community shoots it down constantly doesn't mean it deserves to be shot down (slot moving for example). Remove immortality should be warned against though because it starts devaluing it as a mechanic.

But the community doesn't shoot down slot moving because they don't like the mechanic (usually), it's more of a "this is useless because it can't really work with anything". Meanwhile, with removing immortality, it's just "been done before, and we don't like it".
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on July 31, 2015, 05:37:10 am
But the community doesn't shoot down slot moving because they don't like the mechanic (usually), it's more of a "this is useless because it can't really work with anything".
I'm in agreement with this...

Meanwhile, with removing immortality, it's just "been done before, and we don't like it".
But not this.

"we don't like it" =/= "bad design", which is a point I'd like to make clear so that it doesn't cause problems down the line. Are vanilla creatures 'bad design'?  In a vacuum, no. The community doesn't like them though because they'd currently be a redundant addition to EtG metas unless tons of vanilla support was suddenly added. Removing immortality should be considered "bad design" in most cases because it goes against the point of immortality being immune to spell targeting, regardless of how much the community likes or dislikes the idea.
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: AD TienzuStorm on July 31, 2015, 11:21:56 am
Also, just a thought: we could also have a series that gives passive (and/or airborne) a bigger impact in the game. This could be done in many ways, like making new passives (see Roar link in my signature), making passive lobo effects (see Roar again), making cards that give/trade passives, etc.

Or we could focus on airborne alone, although that's kinda boring. I'd say maybe a mix, like some of them introduce more passives while others focus on airborne. Thoughts on this?
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: OldTrees on July 31, 2015, 11:33:39 am
Isn't "remove immortality" a taboo thing too? I mean, even if it's severely discouraged, you might as well put it in taboo considering how quickly the community shoots those ideas down.
Frequently these ideas abuse the language by trying to X the unXable(X=target in this case). Once an idea stops targeting the response becomes less negative.

The discouragement of repetition is due to a combination of factors but none of them idea specific. 1) Badgering the polls, 2) Plagiarism, 3) Collecting 12 of the same idea isn't as useful as 12 different ideas.


Making passive abilities have a bigger impact is another good idea. Although that would be less a series and more a alteration of existing cards (with some new cards). Focusing on just 1 passive would be too restrictive.
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: OdinVanguard on July 31, 2015, 09:21:51 pm
Isn't "remove immortality" a taboo thing too? I mean, even if it's severely discouraged, you might as well put it in taboo considering how quickly the community shoots those ideas down.
Frequently these ideas abuse the language by trying to X the unXable(X=target in this case). Once an idea stops targeting the response becomes less negative.

The discouragement of repetition is due to a combination of factors but none of them idea specific. 1) Badgering the polls, 2) Plagiarism, 3) Collecting 12 of the same idea isn't as useful as 12 different ideas.

I would definitely like to see more use of field slot based mechanics. It would also be interesting to see more interactions with traits like airborne and ranged.

Making passive abilities have a bigger impact is another good idea. Although that would be less a series and more a alteration of existing cards (with some new cards). Focusing on just 1 passive would be too restrictive.
Removing immaterial can be done without disrupting the game as much as the hype suggests. Checkout Anubis in openEtG. His ability there can remove immaterial... It hasn't really had the disruptive effect the taboo would lead people to believe.
The trick here is that this mechanic needs to be handled carefully. Cards that remove immaterial en-masse are probably bad ideas... On the other hand if the mechanic is tricky enough to pull off it will probably be fine.
Anubis costs 8 :time quanta and then you need either a duo or SoR to use it. That seems to have made it hard enough to pull off that we aren't seeing PhaseDragon-tal strategies or other such abberations.

Isn't "remove immortality" a taboo thing too? I mean, even if it's severely discouraged, you might as well put it in taboo considering how quickly the community shoots those ideas down.
Just because the community shoots it down constantly doesn't mean it deserves to be shot down (slot moving for example). Remove immortality should be warned against though because it starts devaluing it as a mechanic.

But the community doesn't shoot down slot moving because they don't like the mechanic (usually), it's more of a "this is useless because it can't really work with anything". Meanwhile, with removing immortality, it's just "been done before, and we don't like it".
One way to get this sort of thing moving is to start adding cards that make slot location actually useful.
Checkout the card "brawl" in openEtG. It causes the owner's creatures to "Duel" the creature on the corresponding 'opposing' field slot (someone has a diagram somewhere, i'll leave it to the reader to dig it up). Essentially the two creatures attack each other.
Creatures that are in 'unopposed' slots get a free attack at the opponent instead.
Now, field slot location is actually quite important.
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: OldTrees on July 31, 2015, 11:10:22 pm
Frequently these ideas abuse the language by trying to X the unXable(X=target in this case). Once an idea stops targeting the response becomes less negative.
Removing immaterial can be done without disrupting the game as much as the hype suggests. Checkout Anubis in openEtG. His ability there can remove immaterial... It hasn't really had the disruptive effect the taboo would lead people to believe.
The trick here is that this mechanic needs to be handled carefully. Cards that remove immaterial en-masse are probably bad ideas... On the other hand if the mechanic is tricky enough to pull off it will probably be fine.
Anubis costs 8 :time quanta and then you need either a duo or SoR to use it. That seems to have made it hard enough to pull off that we aren't seeing PhaseDragon-tal strategies or other such abberations.

Removing immaterial is not and has not been a card design taboo (being unpopular is not the same kind of thing as being a discouraged idea) so it remains off the list I posted above(posted merely as a quick answer to a question, not as a tangent).

So back to the vote: How long before we determine a consensus?
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on July 31, 2015, 11:57:50 pm
Suggestions i've seen so far:
- Implement Void Pseudoquanta Series
- Implement Mirror Pseudoquanta Series
- Implement Field Manipulation Series
- Implement 13th Element Series
- Define Design-Unfriendly Mechanics

We could start a poll for this. Any other suggestions?
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: AD TienzuStorm on August 01, 2015, 12:09:54 am
Well there's also working with Passives, but I think that's it. I'll make the poll
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: Monox D. I-Fly on August 01, 2015, 01:48:48 pm
One way to get this sort of thing moving is to start adding cards that make slot location actually useful.
Checkout the card "brawl" in openEtG. It causes the owner's creatures to "Duel" the creature on the corresponding 'opposing' field slot (someone has a diagram somewhere, i'll leave it to the reader to dig it up). Essentially the two creatures attack each other.
Creatures that are in 'unopposed' slots get a free attack at the opponent instead.
Now, field slot location is actually quite important.

You mean like the system used in WarMetal Tyrants / Clash of the Heroes /  BattleCraft?

Suggestions i've seen so far:
- Implement Void Pseudoquanta Series
- Implement Mirror Pseudoquanta Series
- Implement Field Manipulation Series
- Implement 13th Element Series
- Define Design-Unfriendly Mechanics

We could start a poll for this. Any other suggestions?

I would like a Booster Pack system in the Bazaar.
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on August 01, 2015, 03:41:41 pm
I would like a Booster Pack system in the Bazaar.
First off, that's not a card design suggestion.

Second off, why? The whole point of Elements having a bazaar is to allow people to have ready access to basic cards without tearing through tons tons of booster packs just to get the cards they need.
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on August 03, 2015, 02:03:59 pm
Discussion seems to be floating around for a bit so I've started a poll.

Note: Regardless of what option wins this poll, all designers are welcome to start projects to explore the other options.
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: AD TienzuStorm on August 06, 2015, 08:03:52 am
Just a little bump. The poll ends on the tenth, so hurry and vote! :D

Also, in case some people forget, you can vote for two options!
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: AD TienzuStorm on August 10, 2015, 03:11:00 pm
Double post because yay.

There has been a tie between these two projects.

Vote for which one you want to work on as a community!
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on August 10, 2015, 07:41:33 pm
Wouldn't it be possible to tackle both?

(Also, probably should've kept older results. Void and 13th Element were tied for 2nd place if memory serves.)
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: AD TienzuStorm on August 11, 2015, 02:24:24 am
Wouldn't it be possible to tackle both?

(Also, probably should've kept older results. Void and 13th Element were tied for 2nd place if memory serves.)

Tackling both would be possible, but wouldn't give the full experience of both mechanics. Unless you mean to do both at the same time but separately, we're going to just end up losing some potential card mechanics that would've been great to have.

It all seems just like it would end with wasted potential to me.

Also, I don't see why you would need older votes. If you do, well.. Void was not tied for second, I believe it was taboo things and 13th element.
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on August 11, 2015, 05:20:35 am
Quote
Also, I don't see why you would need older votes. If you do, well.. Void was not tied for second, I believe it was taboo things and 13th element.
Posterity can be useful for the next iteration of this thread. Apologies for mistaking the vote results, but that is a possible occurence when I attempt to list things from memory.
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: OldTrees on August 11, 2015, 05:41:43 am
Wouldn't it be possible to tackle both?

While possible it would not be advised. Attempting both with the same card set would lead to compromising design for being concise. Attempting both in parallel would wish for more activity than attempting one at a time(and activity is transformed into quality).
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: OdinVanguard on August 12, 2015, 09:18:11 pm
I generally agree, although I think that in the process of introducing field manipulation we will out of necessity end up introducing new passives.
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on August 12, 2015, 09:19:15 pm
I generally agree, although I think that in the process of introducing field manipulation we will out of necessity end up introducing new passives.
Likewise - at the very least, I can see Airborne being expanded on in some degree.
Title: Re: What do YOU want to do next for a project?
Post by: AD TienzuStorm on August 14, 2015, 07:19:24 pm
The subject for our next project will be:

Implementing Field Manipulation series into Cygnia

More on that here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/idea-factory/(community-project)-implementing-field-manipulation-series-into-cygnia/new/#new).
blarg: