*Author

Offline AD TienzuStormTopic starter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1578
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 21
  • AD TienzuStorm is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.AD TienzuStorm is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.AD TienzuStorm is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.AD TienzuStorm is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.
  • I'm back bitches
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 6th Birthday Cake
[Study] Unique Mechanics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=58897.msg1196789#msg1196789
« on: July 14, 2015, 10:35:41 am »
Unique mechanics and implementing them into the CIA

Part 1 - Unique Mechanics themselves

These are highly controversial in the CIA, with different designers having different opinions on them. Several designers (including myself) design using slightly new concepts that are typically variants on mechanics already in game (examples being my FitG series cards). These cards are usually accepted with little to no question on mechanic.

However, there are other designers that design with completely new mechanics that question the current game's mechanics. The most prominent of these designers would be the one and only FrozenGaia. His latest series is the Divination series, which focuses on cards with two different active abilities (and also some obscure types of divination, but that's beside the point). But, these kinds of cards receive notably higher discussion levels on mechanic when compared to the first kinds of cards.

The question for Part 1 of this study is:

"Which is better: a little bit of uniqueness or a lot?"

Part 2 - Implementing new concepts into the CIA

This is actually a glaring problem (IMO) in the CIA and the reason why I made this study.

Let's look at a card like this:

Gravity Increase
2 :gravity, spell
All creatures lose the Airborne passive

This card has little to no use in the current game simply because there are not enough cards that interact with Airborne. This means that these cards never make it to the high levels of the CIA and are never implemented into the game (EtG and oEtG). That means there are continually never any more cards that deal with Airborne and prevents any cards from ever actually doing so. It's a vicious cycle:

- Card is irrelevant
- Doesn't make into game
- Rinse and repeat

This doesn't only apply to Airborne: effects like creature moving and field slot denial are denied because they can only really work with Flooding; milling is denied because there's only one card in game with even a small milling effect (SoB); et cetera.

Question for Part 2 of this study is:

"Is this actually a serious problem, and if so, how can we fix it?"
:light War #9 - Team Light :light | :life Brawl #5 - Gaia's Pride :life
Check out my card Flock!

Offline ZephyrPhantom

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7675
  • Country: aq
  • Reputation Power: 101
  • ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 6th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeFlavour Text Revival Competition - WinnerSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 2nd Birthday Cake
Re: [Study] Unique Mechanics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=58897.msg1196816#msg1196816
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2015, 04:28:34 pm »
One way to counter this problem is by adding more incentives to work with a mechanic first before introducing counters to it. For example, move-slot cards are not very useful right now because they only interact with Flooding, but if more elements had field-alteration cards, move-slot cards would become more viable.

Another way to counter this problem is by giving the counter-card in question a less situational effect. The most basic form of this is usually making the card a cantrip, aka having it draw a card on play. For example:

Gravity Increase
2 :gravity, Spell
All creatures lose the Airborne passive. Draw a card.

Other things you can do are give the card ways to generate resources that would compensate for wasting a card on such a situational effect. For example, you could refund the card's quanta or "mount" the card's effect onto a creature or permanent.

Gravity Increase
2 :gravity, Spell
All creatures lose the Airborne passive. Gain 2 :gravity .

Gravity Increaser 2 :gravity
2 | 2
On play, all creatures lose the Airborne passive.

Gravity Increasing Device 2 :gravity
Permanent
On play, all creatures lose the Airborne passive.
:life : Heal 2 HP.

The former is typically the more ideal solution but it also takes more time to implement. Conversely the latter solution is a more immediate fix but it doesn't actually address the 'meta' issue, so to speak.

Offline OldTrees

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 10297
  • Reputation Power: 114
  • OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
  • I was available for questions.
  • Awards: Brawl #2 Winner - Team FireTeam Card Design Winner
Re: [Study] Unique Mechanics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=58897.msg1196819#msg1196819
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2015, 04:40:51 pm »
The value of a card's addition to the card pool is mostly unrelated to how unique it is. However repeating the same suggestion is redundant. So for the most part the magnitude of the uniqueness is rather irrelevant.

But here we hit on the weaknesses of relying on the CIA to increase the card pool. The CIA judges ideas card by card meaning the rest of a series is usually irrelevant to the success of a card idea. The CIA also judges each card against the current game. These two factors result in reliance on the CIA will result in severely limited possibility space growth.

But the CIA was not intended to be the sole source for additional cards. The main source for additional cards was intended to be via development. Development can add multiple card series and can add some cards as preparation for later cards.
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
"Nothing exists that cannot be countered." -OldTrees on indirect counters
Ask the Idea Guru: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,32272.0.htm

Offline ZephyrPhantom

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7675
  • Country: aq
  • Reputation Power: 101
  • ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 6th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeFlavour Text Revival Competition - WinnerSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 2nd Birthday Cake
Re: [Study] Unique Mechanics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=58897.msg1196822#msg1196822
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2015, 04:46:33 pm »
The value of a card's addition to the card pool is mostly unrelated to how unique it is. However repeating the same suggestion is redundant. So for the most part the magnitude of the uniqueness is rather irrelevant.

But here we hit on the weaknesses of relying on the CIA to increase the card pool. The CIA judges ideas card by card meaning the rest of a series is usually irrelevant to the success of a card idea. The CIA also judges each card against the current game. These two factors result in reliance on the CIA will result in severely limited possibility space growth.

But the CIA was not intended to be the sole source for additional cards. The main source for additional cards was intended to be via development. Development can add multiple card series and can add some cards as preparation for later cards.
Unfortunately, CI&A's levels system currently is the most reliable way of adding cards to Cygnia, which also comes with the drawback of the initial cardflow being a slow process - we likely won't get our first 3 cards until August.

Fortunately for us, that doesn't mean it can't be rectified. On the flipside, we would need some more public-friendly ways to introduce card series into the system. (Or just more ways to get card input in general without straining Curator management) Do you have any suggestions for such a system?

(Sidenote: Old!CI&A definitely demonstrated its capabilities to form successful development teams, as shown by Idea Factory and Gaian vs Cthonic. I'm curious to see if other individuals of present!CI&A would be able to do the same thing.)
« Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 04:49:51 pm by Zblader »

Offline OldTrees

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 10297
  • Reputation Power: 114
  • OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
  • I was available for questions.
  • Awards: Brawl #2 Winner - Team FireTeam Card Design Winner
Re: [Study] Unique Mechanics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=58897.msg1196824#msg1196824
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2015, 05:06:53 pm »
The value of a card's addition to the card pool is mostly unrelated to how unique it is. However repeating the same suggestion is redundant. So for the most part the magnitude of the uniqueness is rather irrelevant.

But here we hit on the weaknesses of relying on the CIA to increase the card pool. The CIA judges ideas card by card meaning the rest of a series is usually irrelevant to the success of a card idea. The CIA also judges each card against the current game. These two factors result in reliance on the CIA will result in severely limited possibility space growth.

But the CIA was not intended to be the sole source for additional cards. The main source for additional cards was intended to be via development. Development can add multiple card series and can add some cards as preparation for later cards.
Unfortunately, CI&A's levels system currently is the most reliable way of adding cards to Cygnia, which also comes with the drawback of the initial cardflow being a slow process - we likely won't get our first 3 cards until August.

Fortunately for us, that doesn't mean it can't be rectified. On the flipside, we would need some more public-friendly ways to introduce card series into the system. (Or just more ways to get card input in general without straining Curator management) Do you have any suggestions for such a system?

(Sidenote: Old!CI&A definitely demonstrated its capabilities to form successful development teams, as shown by Idea Factory and Gaian vs Cthonic. I'm curious to see if other individuals of present!CI&A would be able to do the same thing.)
Cygnia? Found it. Relying solely on the CIA is going to stunt the growth in the long run.

I do not know of an idea ranking system that would work for general card development. However I cannot quite disprove the possibility of one.

I would be shocked if members of the present CIA did not still have such capabilities. But we know from experience that development does not filter through an idea ranking system very well.

So maybe also include good enough ideas from development teams made of CIA designers.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 05:14:56 pm by OldTrees »
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
"Nothing exists that cannot be countered." -OldTrees on indirect counters
Ask the Idea Guru: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,32272.0.htm

Offline ZephyrPhantom

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7675
  • Country: aq
  • Reputation Power: 101
  • ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 6th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeFlavour Text Revival Competition - WinnerSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 2nd Birthday Cake
Re: [Study] Unique Mechanics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=58897.msg1196825#msg1196825
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2015, 05:10:11 pm »
Cygnia?

I do not know of an idea ranking system that would work for general card development. However I cannot quite disprove the possibility of one.

I would be shocked if members of the present CIA did not still have such capabilities. But we know from experience that development does not filter through an idea ranking system very well.
For context: Cygnia.

A development system would have to be separate from an idea ranking system; I'm mainly wondering on if and how the two could coexist in CI&A, if they were to exist. (Cygnia being the outlet for both groups.)
« Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 05:23:48 pm by Zblader »

Offline Espithel

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2705
  • Reputation Power: 0
  • Espithel hides under a Cloak.
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 11th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 10th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 9th Birthday CakeGive us the video.Slice of Elements 7th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 6th Birthday CakeZanz Christmas Present Competition - Winner
Re: [Study] Unique Mechanics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=58897.msg1196907#msg1196907
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2015, 03:46:53 am »
This is slightly tangential, but worth saying: The more "unique" something is, the more cards the uniqueness needs for the uniqueness to be judged by itself. This is important.

Imagine if bloodshadow made ONE card that used Void quanta. Just one. Not the pillar or the pend, just one Void card. Just one.

... We would judge that card based on its card. We wouldn't be judging the merits of Void. At best, we could be saying "This card is interesting." And leave it at that.

But bloodshadow made many cards that used Void. (At least I hope he did, I admit I haven't checked too much.) And that told him quite a few things about it.

For example, Void turned out to be quite overpowered as a quanta type. With a normal element, if you don't have enough quanta, you can't cast that card. Simple. But you can cast Void at any given time in any given deck. Void pillars help offset the cost. So you can risk it. I mean, if your opponent is using the mark to splash, or using the mark to fix quanta (grabbows using earth to make getting grabbows easier, for example), you can just unload your entire void hand and not even care.
Void also had slightly less design space than what it was intended to look like, given the fact that it can go into any deck, thus shouldn't be allowed to use any programmed weaknesses into the elements, like :aether struggling with quanta ramp or :life having no CC.

This brings back to this argument easily:
If ONE Void card, Just one, was brought into Cygnia, it would feel really weird. We'd need at least 2, or 3, or 5, or 10 cards that use Void to "justify" the uniqueness of Void.

Some mechanics that are unique can get away with only one card: Nill Eater, for example. But nill eater isn't that unique, really. It makes a lot of sense. It's not complex. It does what it says it does - reduces minimum deck size. It's immediately obvious why this is a good card. It's unique, sure, but it's unique in a low-key way.

Some mechanics, however, have so much... Fruit, to them, we'll say, that it really does feel weird to only add one card with that mechanic, such as Void. It's an ENTIRE ELEMENT! It should have more than one card.

And then there are mechanics that would need so many new cards that it just becomes slightly silly to implement - Take hybrid quanta.  This post pretty much sums it up:

I think the biggest problem with introducing duo cards is the UI changes involved with making them.

It would imply needing many, many, combinations of new cards to effectively make itself a part of the game. And in the current game, the introduction of even one card from all the Duo combinations would swamp out the entire rest of the card pool, so I say not yet.

Maybe these could be added into the game when the card pool gets bigger, and we can make a big project out of it, but as the game currently stands, there's no point in adding 1 or 2 duo cards when mono cards work perfectly fine.


TL;DR: The more unique (Or, I suppose, complex cards), the more grand you make your mechanic, the more cards you need that use that mechanic to justify it having it in the game. Problem is, CIA isn't well equipped for methods like that.

PS: I like how I'm now a standard of weirdness in this forum.

Offline ZephyrPhantom

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7675
  • Country: aq
  • Reputation Power: 101
  • ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ZephyrPhantom is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 6th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeFlavour Text Revival Competition - WinnerSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 2nd Birthday Cake
Re: [Study] Unique Mechanics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=58897.msg1196908#msg1196908
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2015, 03:57:04 am »
All of this implies that for "larger scale" mechanics like Void and Hybrid Quanta, we would need a dedicated group of card designers supporting their development as opposed to just letting cards trickle in through the voting system. It seems like the most practical route this could go would be be to find some way to encourage volunteer groups of designers to 'form up' in threads and encourage/petition things like these to enter the game. (Worth noting that groups projects are exactly what Project Factory should encourage.)

Offline OldTrees

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 10297
  • Reputation Power: 114
  • OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
  • I was available for questions.
  • Awards: Brawl #2 Winner - Team FireTeam Card Design Winner
Re: [Study] Unique Mechanics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=58897.msg1196944#msg1196944
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2015, 11:09:27 am »
All of this implies that for "larger scale" mechanics like Void and Hybrid Quanta, we would need a dedicated group of card designers supporting their development as opposed to just letting cards trickle in through the voting system. It seems like the most practical route this could go would be be to find some way to encourage volunteer groups of designers to 'form up' in threads and encourage/petition things like these to enter the game. (Worth noting that groups projects are exactly what Project Factory should encourage.)
Yeah. But you will need to strike a balance between encouraging and scaring people off. If it is easier to get a set in than a card, then people will make more low quality sets. But at the same times you don't want to scare everyone off by having it be too much harder to get a set in than a card.
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
"Nothing exists that cannot be countered." -OldTrees on indirect counters
Ask the Idea Guru: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,32272.0.htm

 

blarg: FrozenGaia