Poll

Which Teries cards do you feel best represent Earth and Air combined?

Destructive Wings
0 (0%)
Airborne Weapon
0 (0%)
Jump
1 (10%)
Dormant Stone Demon
2 (20%)
Skyforge Scrap-Golem
4 (40%)
Duststorm Shield
1 (10%)
Skyiron Gauntlets
2 (20%)

Total Members Voted: 6

Voting closed: November 28, 2015, 04:55:22 pm

*Author

Offline ZephyrPhantomTopic starter

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Re: [Project] Designing Opposite Hybrids for Cygnia [Week 2/6 - Entropy/Gravity] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60036.msg1211729#msg1211729
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2015, 04:52:04 am »
We should probably also mention the (in)famous Discord/BH combo while we're at it. Quanta manipulation is definitely on the table, though Entropy is definitely geared much more towards quanta generation whereas Gravity cares about removing it. Both also have creatures with powerful repeatable instakill abilities (Otyugh, Maxwell's Demon) and limited access to repeatable permanent destruction (Pulverizer (technically), and Butterfly Effect).

Offline kirbylover314

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Re: [Project] Designing Opposite Hybrids for Cygnia [Week 2/6 - Entropy/Gravity] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60036.msg1211730#msg1211730
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2015, 04:58:26 am »
Don't forget SoFo on the list of repeatable PC.

I would argue that Devour and Paradox deals more of the theme of manipulation of creatures' stats in line with other Gravity and Entropy cards, as the two elements have Chaos Power, Antimatter, Gravity Pull, Acceleration and Momentum.

Offline ZephyrPhantomTopic starter

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Re: [Project] Designing Opposite Hybrids for Cygnia [Week 2/6 - Entropy/Gravity] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60036.msg1211732#msg1211732
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2015, 05:11:02 am »
Hm, that's a good point, Kirby - both Elements have quite a bit of cards that involve modifying creatures (Mutation and Gravity Pull arguably qualify as well).

I'd also like to note that Gravity's high HP and Entropy's random chance stick out as things that each element has; these seem difficult to reconcile into a design, though...

*ZephyrPhantom thinks.

Perhaps something like this?
Quote
Shifting Boson | Chaos Boson 5 | 1 
0 | 20
Unupped text: Each turn, loses 1-6 HP to gain that much ATK.
Upped Text:  Each turn, loses 1-6 HP to have a random creature lose the same amount of HP.

Offline ZephyrPhantomTopic starter

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Re: [Project] Designing Opposite Hybrids for Cygnia [Week 2/6 - Entropy/Gravity] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60036.msg1211742#msg1211742
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2015, 05:36:33 am »
This card works with both of them, and can give different synergies per element. The upgraded is borderline OP, or just completely OP, and I have no idea how to balance.
In all fairness, the upgraded requires a second card to instakill, much like Shockwave + Freeze. It contains a wide variety of effects that don't quite outright beat other more specialized cards (Heal, Lobotomizer) but has multiple uses.

A bit iffy on the the fact that it lobotomizes, though. This seems like it could be more :gravity / :aether , given that.

Offline EmeraldTiger

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Re: [Project] Designing Opposite Hybrids for Cygnia [Week 2/6 - Entropy/Gravity] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60036.msg1211797#msg1211797
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2015, 03:06:38 pm »
New Version for Dissa's Embrace.

Dissa's Embrace 5 | Dissa's Embrace 4
Target creature and a random creature in your possession combine to become a Dissan Chimera.

Notes: Both creatures are creatures in caster's possession.

Dissan Chimera | Dissan Chimera
Unstable: Gain up to +/-3 attack and gain up to +/-3 hit points. | Unstable: Gain up to +/-3 attack and gain up to +/-3 hit points.

I guess that would fall under creature manipulation.
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Offline OdinVanguard

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Re: [Project] Designing Opposite Hybrids for Cygnia [Week 2/6 - Entropy/Gravity] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60036.msg1211828#msg1211828
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2015, 06:31:31 pm »
One other intersting point. I'm working on a series that interacts with the level of dispersion in quanta distributions.

Spoiler for Calculating Dispersion:
The amount of dispersion in a player's pool is calculated in 2 steps. First, the total quanta, N is computed and fed into Stirling's Approximation for factorial logarithms:

A = N*ln(N)-N

Next the above formula is applied to the quanta count of each non-empty pool and the results are sumed:

B = Sum( Nr * ln(Nr) - Nr) over all Nr non-empty pools.

Then,

Dispersion = A - B

This could work well as a theme for Dissa ( :gravity , :entropy ) hybrid since the mechanic could interact with the quanta manipulation themes inherent in both elements.

E.g. reward the player for increasing / decreasing their quantum dispersion while penalizing the opponent.
Quanta manipulation, in terms of condesing / dispersing could make an interesting theme here.

This concept of dispersion interaction could also be extended to compute the dispersion of creature stats.
HP lends itself most easily since creature HP is always greater than 0.
ATK could be done as well, but may be more tricky since negative and zero values will complicate the math.

Again, this builds of the core theme of dispersion ( :entropy ) and condensation ( :gravity )
Example:


The above card ties in both the concept of dispersion as an entropy metric ( :entropy ) and the concept of condensation of power / mass ( :gravity ).

A spell idea that focuses on weapons instead:
"Meromorphic Overload: Target weapon siphons 1|0 from all creatures in the field with the least dispersed HPs.
It will self destruct on hit."

Another spell idea, this one does not need to resort to dispersion calculations:
"Quantum Holomorphism: Redistribute your quanta to match the distribution of card costs in your hand and deck, rounding up."
... Although this might be more useful for :aether :entropy decks.

A potentially more fitting spell:
"Power Accretion: Target creature siphons 1|1 from all other creatures each turn. It becomes a nova when either ATK or HP exceeds 30."
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 11:22:58 pm by OdinVanguard »
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Offline ZephyrPhantomTopic starter

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Re: [Project] Designing Opposite Hybrids for Cygnia [Week 2/6 - Entropy/Gravity] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60036.msg1211967#msg1211967
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2015, 05:40:49 pm »
Using Dispersion as a defining :entropy / :gravity mechanic seems like a great way to represent where the two intersect - high entropy should lead to max equilibrium, after all. While it doesn't use it directly I think Power Accretion is the most graceful of the ideas you've implemented,, since it provides a clear connetion without needing to explain what Dispersion actually is. Can you provide an example of how Power Sink works to better give an idea of what qualifies as "most dispersed HP"?

P.S. - Would love to see more input on the :light / :darkness poll on the ideas in the OP, if possible.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 05:42:53 pm by ZephyrPhantom »

Offline AD TienzuStorm

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Re: [Project] Designing Opposite Hybrids for Cygnia [Week 2/6 - Entropy/Gravity] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60036.msg1211983#msg1211983
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2015, 08:27:40 pm »
Something I noticed is that both have cards that deal with changing cards from one to another (Mutation/Elves and SoFo). Small but maybe worth noting.

Also, as somebody said earlier: both elements have quite a bit of focus on stats (with seemingly Entropy more caring about attack through Maxwell's Demon and then just neutral stat cards whilst Gravy likes HP as shown through cards like Catapult and GP).
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Offline OdinVanguard

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Re: [Project] Designing Opposite Hybrids for Cygnia [Week 2/6 - Entropy/Gravity] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60036.msg1211995#msg1211995
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2015, 09:52:56 pm »
Powersink example:

You have a field of 5 unupgraded cockatrices (4 HP each), which yields an HP dispersion of 32.2 
I have a purple dragon (5 HP) and an armagio (25 HP), which yields an HP dispersion of 13.5
--This makes sense, the hp on the field of cockatrices is evenly distributed among all 5 creatures while on the other field most of the HP is concentrated in the armagio, hence the lower score even though there are more total HPs.

I cast Power Sink on my armagio.
Since your field has more dispersed HPs, the 1|0 gets siphoned from each of your cockatrices and given to my armagio.
You now have 5 3|4 creatures while I now have a 10|5 and a 6|25.

Note that power sink favors players keeping most of their stats concentrated, so despite its potential power, it is easily countered by RT.
Similarly, Power Sink is a good 'soft counter' to mass CC since mass CC will tend to thin out massess of low HP creatures, leaving the HP more concentrated in a handful of survivors.

Also, as somebody said earlier: both elements have quite a bit of focus on stats (with seemingly Entropy more caring about attack through Maxwell's Demon and then just neutral stat cards whilst Gravy likes HP as shown through cards like Catapult and GP).
This is why power sink drains power ( :entropy ) and concentrates it into a single creature ( :gravity )
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 09:57:21 pm by OdinVanguard »
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Re: [Project] Designing Opposite Hybrids for Cygnia [Week 2/6 - Entropy/Gravity] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60036.msg1212044#msg1212044
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2015, 02:47:36 am »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropic_gravity this may help

I Googled this... where does Gravity and Entropy coexist
« Last Edit: October 24, 2015, 02:51:54 am by EmeraldTiger »
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Re: [Project] Designing Opposite Hybrids for Cygnia [Week 2/6 - Entropy/Gravity] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60036.msg1212047#msg1212047
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2015, 02:57:53 am »
In my opinion, other than the glaring similarity that is quanta disruption from Discord/Black Hole, both Entropy and Gravity dish out some interesting status effects, both negative and positive.

So, I was thinking a card based around a "scale", for the Gravity part, however, the Entropy part seems to be counterbalancing the scale!

Spoiler for Tilted Scale | Slanted Scale:
Tilted Scale
4 :entropy or :gravity
Randomly inflicts either Gravity Pull or Chaos Seed on a creature each turn.
1 :entropy or :gravity : Tilt
Shifts the current scale bias to the opposite option. Starts in Gravity Pull.

Slanted Scale
5 :entropy or :gravity
Randomly inflicts either Overdrive or Chaos Power on a creature each turn..
1 :entropy or :gravity : Tilt
Shifts the current scale bias to the opposite option. Starts in Overdrive.

Unbalanced? Likely. Just trying to get feedback on the idea.

Offline ZephyrPhantomTopic starter

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Re: [Project] Designing Opposite Hybrids for Cygnia [Week 2/6 - Entropy/Gravity] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60036.msg1212052#msg1212052
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2015, 04:57:51 am »
I'd also had constant infliction of Gravity Pull in mind when ET showed me Entropic Gravity, so I think Tilted Scale is on the right track.

Slanted Scale seems like it could be incredibly strong, even if it could hit enemy creatures.

My main concern about the idea atm is that it lets mono :gravity access mono :entropy effects and vice versa - if you look at the Duality cards, you'll notice that most of them try to strike a point where either element could conceivably have the effect or require the presence both :light and :darkness to unlock the full potential of their effects. Titled Scale on the hand allows for mono Gravity to constant spam Chaos Seed and Chaos Power without the need for any :entropy , which is a bit.... jarring to say the the least. I'd start by having it require :entropy to access "Entropy mode" and :gravity to access "Gravity mode", though that doesn't solve the issue of it starting in Gravity mode and being accessed by mono-Entropy.

 

anything
blarg: