Elements the Game Forum - Free Online Fantasy Card Game
Elements the Game => Game Suggestions and Feedback => Topic started by: penuser on February 04, 2014, 01:16:06 pm
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I suddenly bump up this idea.
Even if you are an experienced player, it takes really long time for you to get the first ~6000 coins, minimum requirements for a false god deck. Most new players are suffering from grinding Lv3 and being grinded by Bronze.
Since this is a really hard time to cope with, what if we offer a free upgrade on the very 1st card (can be a quest), and (if possible?) a 500 for the 2nd and 1000 for the 3rd?
In this way, new players can get 3 upped card for just 1500 electrums. Which can be a great help for their career.
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With the upcomming elements 1.4, many things will be different anyway, it will be easier to advance from the mid-level (now level 3) by playing against specific opponents, and opponents between the power of current AI3 and AI4. The rewards for opponents will appearently be raised as well.
Further, more quests will be implemented as well. But, letting the creator aside, nobody knows jet how many quests there will be or what the rewards for those quests are.
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No, it doesn't take a really long time. Doesn't even take a long time. See here for several people who have taken part in the NBC and have up to 9 upped cards already: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/general-discussion/%28nearly%29-no-bazaar-challenge/
That's without using the Bazaar to buy cards at all AND playing casually every day. I'm only at 444 wins on my aetherfish account and I have NINE upgrades. I started the challenge hoping it would be challenging, but not even without the Bazaar is it hard or takes a long time. This is mainly because of the extreme generosity:challenge ratio of AI4 and the daily predicted FG. Most FG's are easy to counter if you know they're coming, and with a ~47% droprate, they're extremely profitable even for a -complete- newbie.
Currently, come 1.4, you'll be able to get your first upped card in less than 20 minutes. I know because I've tried out all Elements in the beta version in Trainer, and I accomplished that feat with Life. -Hopefully- the AI that give you one spin at upped cards that early are either removed, their reward is changed, or they become MUCH harder. Elements is already easy, no need to make it pathetic.
I don't think most new players are struggling with Bronze at all. I see most of them making half-finished versions of some of the best unupped Bronze grinders in the game (such as Monodark) and kicking Bronze ass. Yes, they have a hard time getting special spins consistently, but what else would tell them they need to improve their deck? Silver is where I see people struggle, as well they should. Only the best unupped decks can compete there.
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On 1.4 I decided to play for one hour and see how far I'd go. I managed 10 upped cards with a deck entirely modded from my starting deck. There are some really easy AIs that drop 1 or 2 upped spins currently (don't know if they'll be tweaked before the release). AI4 can be a bit frustrating with the spins mixing upped and unupped cards, but they are profitable and you'll get to 6000 in 1 to 3 days tops.
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I think the 1.4 currently in trainer is bad and should be changed a lot before being implemented;
not only can you choose your opponent (infinite oracle predictions, yay!), but also, as has been said, the rewards are too high.
As for the current version, I actually agree with having a discount/free 1 upgrade.
Not to make the game easier,
but to give a motivation to new players who are not very good at deckbuilding yet,
and haven't heard about the oracle's prediction counters.
If you were to win from ai3 every 2 minutes, and make 50 profit from that (with losses included),
it takes 100 minutes to get a single upgrade.
sure, it is a very rough guess,
but the point is that it is quite some time;
and more importantly it will feel like the player isn't able to progress untill then,
and after that only a little.
then again, this might motivate newer players even more to reset their account because they 'didn't upgrade the good card'.
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There are ways to win money pretty fast starting killing FGs with unupgraded decks. See the tutorials section or the community recommended decks for reference.
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While I might not agree with the exact details of OP's suggestion, I recall that the issue of "newb friendliness" and "grinding overload" is hardly new, nor has it really been solved. Arena did go a long way in helping, and 1.4 is obviously a major change, but I think this community still has a distinct bias against anything outside of the norms established here. Granted, what we have here is great and efficient, but all I see here is a bunch of veterans saying "oh, this isn't hard at all," "I've gotten x upgrades already with only y wins!" and the like.
There is a difference between forum participants/veterans who have a solid or even intimate understanding of the entire game and newbs who have just discovered it. You can't compare playing with (perhaps less than) the resources of a newb to having the knowledge and experience base of one. As prolific and loud and exciting as this forum is, a majority of EtG players have likely never registered, or even lurked, on this platform to see all of the flashy deck ideas or cool tutorials. I think an extended or expanded format to introduce the game to newbies, in addition to all of the stuff we have here, inside the actual game window would be useful, and a feature similar to this would not be out of place. There is a reason why suggestions like this keep popping up.
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Not really. OP specifically stated it takes a really long time even for an experienced player.
Adding to that, all you need to do, as a newbie, is research -one- single effective deck for AI4 or Bronze/Silver and you're just as set as a vet would be if they started over. I'm not advocating copypasting decks, and I didn't when I started out. I did, however, read the forum and Kong to get a better general idea of the card pool. From there I found the efficient cards for myself, mainly ones with good attack:cost ratio. So, I propose that it has nothing to do with the game being grindy by nature, which it is. That's not going to change, since it's a CCG. And when it comes to CCG's, EtG doesn't start any slower than other ones.
What we're getting are more quests to help out people who are starting out, and that's the perfect solution. Why? Because if you don't like the grindy nature of the game, you're not going to play it much either way, early boosts or not. We have vets in the community who are like that, and they do stay mainly for the community and secondarily for the game, and that's fine.
Plus, quests add more content for all members, not just newbies. However, I have to reiterate that getting upgrades too easily as we can right now in Beta, the game will change completely. Newbies will be able to catch up to people who have been playing for 3 years and haven't gotten all cards yet. This is more of a problem because of the design shift than the injustice itself (I couldn't care less about that); I would probably stop playing besides the daily FG if there's no challenge anymore.
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I don't agree with every detail in OP, but I do agree with the general sentiment. That being said:
Higurashi: yellow
Aves: normal
Adding to that, all you need to do, as a newbie, is research -one- single effective deck for AI4 or Bronze/Silver and you're just as set as a vet would be if they started over. I'm not advocating copypasting decks, and I didn't when I started out. I did, however, read the forum and Kong to get a better general idea of the card pool. From there I found the efficient cards for myself, mainly ones with good attack:cost ratio. So, I propose that it has nothing to do with the game being grindy by nature, which it is. That's not going to change, since it's a CCG. And when it comes to CCG's, EtG doesn't start any slower than other ones.
I doubt that researching one effective deck would make you as effective as the average vet starting over. The vet has already gone through the game. The vet already knows about all of the mechanics, the metagame, and which steps to take to get back to upgrading cards. Resource-wise, yes, the vet will do similarly to a newb who does his or her research, but the experience of knowing exactly what to do can't be replicated. Not to say that tutorials or deck threads aren't helpful or can't provide a major helping hand, I am just saying that they simply can't substitute for the pure experience gained by playing the game.
My main issue is not that the game is grindy-- it's that the game is grindy and many people leave solely for that reason. For every newb who was like you, some other acclaimed community member, or even me, I'd wager that there's several people who've found or been introduced to the game, achieved the 500 score quest, and went :o at what came next.
What we're getting are more quests to help out people who are starting out, and that's the perfect solution. Why? Because if you don't like the grindy nature of the game, you're not going to play it much either way, early boosts or not. We have vets in the community who are like that, and they do stay mainly for the community and secondarily for the game, and that's fine.
I do agree that 1.4 is a major step in the right direction. I do agree that more quests is good, or even great. I believe I say that more support for newbies in the game would be great, and the things you mention here are definitely a part of that. I do agree that you don't have to grind all day to gain enjoyment form the game. As a person who's generally doesn't seriously grind, I agree with all of your statements here. What I do not agree with is the notion that the above and a mechanic similar to OP's suggestion must be mutually exclusive, or that OP's idea has absolutely no merit.
Plus, quests add more content for all members, not just newbies. However, I have to reiterate that getting upgrades too easily as we can right now in Beta, the game will change completely. Newbies will be able to catch up to people who have been playing for 3 years and haven't gotten all cards yet. This is more of a problem because of the design shift than the injustice itself (I couldn't care less about that); I would probably stop playing besides the daily FG if there's no challenge anymore.
I'm not quite sure where newbies getting their first few upgrades more easily translates into veterans not having any more challenges. Our pvp events will still be here, studies will still be conducted, arguments will be given, etc. Exactly what design shift are you taking issue with? An extended tutorial or introductory period doesn't seem like a major problem to me. I do suppose that if you find yourself creating new accounts and playing through them, it would be a hassle, but surely it would be a simple proposition to add a feature "turn off quests" or something of that mold, or even manually to avoid quests, just as people are voluntarily avoiding the bazaar in the NBC?
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Similar topics merged - Moderator
I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but heard from several newbies on Kongregate that 1500 electrum is far too much for an upgrade. I've even recommended using a mono rush deck but ended up getting slaughtered for it.
What do you think, should players pay less for an upgrade?
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Yes, yes it is. 1500 electrum is a really high sum for a newbie, but once you have a top-notch FG grinder it's quite easy to acquire. IMO upps should cost 1000 or 1200 electrum, with a decrease in their selling price.
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This topic has been debated MANY times before and to great length.
Please do a bit of research before dragging this topic thru the mud again.
I would hope that some admin will lock this topic.
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This topic has been debated MANY times before and to great length.
Please do a bit of research before dragging this topic thru the mud again.
I would hope that some admin will lock this topic.
Yes, I'm already aware of this and I apologize for it. It's just that I'm wondering on the up-to-date response compared to the past topics. Although someone really could do with bringing one onto Kongregate.
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This topic has been debated MANY times before and to great length.
Please do a bit of research before dragging this topic thru the mud again.
I would hope that some admin will lock this topic.
Yes, I'm already aware of this and I apologize for it. It's just that I'm wondering on the up-to-date response compared to the past topics. Although someone really could do with bringing one onto Kongregate.
Decreasing the price of upgrades would be a huge slap to the face of everyone who has upgraded dozens of cards. That would be a massive waste of electrum. Not to mention the several balancing parts that would have to be done with it, like decreasing the price of selling upgraded cards, which would only hurt later farming.
And not to mention that when you start farming ai4/gods, you can get a lot of electrum far more quickly. Mostly due to selling upgraded cards.
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Decreasing the price of upgrades would be a huge slap to the face of everyone who has upgraded dozens of cards.
Keeping a poor mechanic just because older players already had to put up with it is an awful excuse.
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I'd like to see a few newbie quests to get some earlier upgrades easier, like how they can get a free rare weapon now, but after that, they should learn to play the game.
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I'd like to see a few newbie quests to get some earlier upgrades easier, like how they can get a free rare weapon now, but after that, they should learn to play the game.
First 5 upgrades for 750 :electrum each?
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I think it should have a limit on the deck upgraded
maximum 50%, it would certainly be more fun and would cause the player to think better the cards upped to uses.
the prices I suggest 500 :electrum to pillars pendulums, 750 :electrum to common cards 1000 :electrum to rares cards and 1500 :electrum to hyper rare cards.
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I was thinking more like quests something like 'beat your first halfblood: get a free upgrade' or 'beat your first false god: get 3 upgrades free', just to get people started.
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Good and quest to 1 nymph to people starts ;)
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Good and quest to 1 nymph to people starts ;)
Something akin to the rare weapons quest? Like 'Get to score 2500 and get a nymph'?
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well 100k is fine, but then not will be to starters players, but a quest of 100k and choice your nymph is awesome! is exciting.
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I think it should have a limit on the deck upgraded
maximum 50%, it would certainly be more fun and would cause the player to think better the cards upped to uses.
the prices I suggest 500 :electrum to pillars pendulums, 750 :electrum to common cards 1000 :electrum to rares cards and 1500 :electrum to hyper rare cards.
This upgrade system is better, but altering prices isn't the change I would like to see in Elements. It also implies that rare cards are better since you spend more money on them.
I believe all of the cards should be upgraded for 900-1000 electrum, with sell prices dropping to 850-900.
Either that or make electrum easier to acquire.
I'm really not going to respond to a veteran saying: it worked and still works.
That is literally stating we shouldn't change it because it has been gone through.
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I mean, we could just compensate the 500so electrum each player is missing out on per upgrade.
If we're going to majorly change one of the more major mechanics of the game, we might as well go full on with it.
Mweh, imo, it's fine as it is. It just looks really towering at first, and the INSTANT you suddenly make Pdials/Swallow/Fiery SouFflé Rush/The Brave Malignant Ball That Could/Voodoo Bravery/SoW reflect... it's not a problem anymore. That's where any problem actually lies.
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Either that or make electrum easier to acquire.
The point is that electrum is easy to acquire if you figure some things. Even if you stay in silver with a semi upped deck you get the money to upgrade 1 or 2 cards in a reasonable amount of time. Once you get to plat you'll be making 300 electrum per victory (~1000 per special spin) and paying 15 to enter each game.
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Doesn't that imply that you need upgrades already to be able to earn upgrades reasonably? The huge hurdle is starting out, and giving new players an easier time with that hurdle can only help player retention.
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Doesn't that imply that you need upgrades already to be able to earn upgrades reasonably? The huge hurdle is starting out, and giving new players an easier time with that hurdle can only help player retention.
About so. By the time you have access to some real income, you don't really need it anymore
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Decreasing the price of upgrades would be a huge slap to the face of everyone who has upgraded dozens of cards.
Keeping a poor mechanic just because older players already had to put up with it is an awful excuse.
So its a good thing to slap every player who has suck hundreds of thousands in the face and make it so they essentially spent 30% more? Seems like the idea only punishes old players for starting early. Its like saying, "hey, you just wasted all this time."
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Decreasing the price of upgrades would be a huge slap to the face of everyone who has upgraded dozens of cards.
Keeping a poor mechanic just because older players already had to put up with it is an awful excuse.
So its a good thing to slap every player who has suck hundreds of thousands in the face and make it so they essentially spent 30% more? Seems like the idea only punishes old players for starting early. Its like saying, "hey, you just wasted all this time."
I don't think that the price of upgrades needs to be lowered, but I have to agree with mizekel that this particular reason is weak. As Frozengaia suggested, players could be given back the electrum difference for each upgraded card they own.
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Doesn't that imply that you need upgrades already to be able to earn upgrades reasonably? The huge hurdle is starting out, and giving new players an easier time with that hurdle can only help player retention.
Not so much. For example, you can make a fair bronze grinder with an unupped, no rares mono dark and make money selling the rares from the spin to make a FG grinder with 3~4 upgrades (limitless works with 3). You can make unupped FG grinders, you can make counters to FGs predicted by the oracle, etc.
In about one week tops you should be at the point where you can get ups more easily.
The problem is not having the ups in the first place, but knowing what makes a deck good and effective against a certain opponent.
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I suggested some time ago (don't remember the thread) that the players should get a free upgrade for 1000, 2000 and 3000 score (I don't really remember the numbers, just made them up now). That's 3 free upgrades, and it's enough to get things started. Plus, if you don't want the upgrade, you can just sell the upped card and keep the coins.
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So Omega. We should keep the system because everyone has went through it?
Poor reason.
Better system. First upgrade is 100, Second is 200, etc. until 1500. Then it stays there.
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So Omega. We should keep the system because everyone has went through it?
Poor reason.
Better system. First upgrade is 100, Second is 200, etc. until 1500. Then it stays there.
That's really TOO cheap. A few free upgrades are ok, but these are way too many.
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Only 6k difference really. The first 15 cards with 3 free ups costs 18k. The first 15 with deathreigns system costs 12k. All the rest are the same. And I agree that the up cost currently is too high. There is a *lot* of mindless grinding even with a "perfect" grinding deck. I don't really think it will ever change though.