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Zeful

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Is this game worth playing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34476.msg434957#msg434957
« on: December 04, 2011, 11:33:27 pm »
I started playing three days ago, and since then have seen a lot of crap that just pisses me off as a person enlightened about game design. It's making me very seriously not consider playing the game. First and foremost being the tiny rewards for playing bots. I know it's there to encourage people to PvP more, but the game does not set you up to initially play against other players, heck it barely sets you up to play the bots, and bots are easy. Next is the pairing system for non-arena PvP, I'm not getting placed against new players, like would be expected from a system (because Elo's scoring system exists), I'm getting initially placed against people with 500+ games played? Really? This makes the 30 :electrum ante for PvP just not worth it. I can throw 30 :electrum away just by buying off type cards, which actually improve my ability to play, playing people with that much of an economic advantage means that I'm throwing money away that I could actually use. So I'm pretty much stuck just grinding the bots and their shit rewards so that PvP is a possibility rather than an automatic loss. The arena is worse. Automatically getting locked in 5 copies of "the oracle's" card means that new players have a 1 in 14 chance before entering a match of even being able to compete because they have 1 color their deck actually can support and getting 5 cards that are not that color means 5 card dead-weight, decreasing the odds to gain a useful card on a draw, and wasting space in their hand. I'm also aware it's to improve variety, but it's also an effective lockout for the "Newbie scrubs" to keep them from "tainting" the "pureness" of the arena.

Is this game eventually worth it or just more of the same?

PuppyChow

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Re: Is this game worth playing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34476.msg434958#msg434958
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2011, 11:42:09 pm »
You obviously haven't heard of False Gods if you think bot awards are too small.

In other words, yes, it gets better. Once you start farming False Gods it's fairly difficult, but eventually gets better. Part of what makes this game so great is the community, so since you've already found that it's a step in the right direction.

Zeful

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Re: Is this game worth playing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34476.msg434960#msg434960
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2011, 11:44:34 pm »
So I have months of grind ahead of me to gain the privilege to more grind?

Doesn't sound like it's getting better, just more tedious.

Offline Vineroz

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Re: Is this game worth playing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34476.msg434961#msg434961
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2011, 11:48:52 pm »
If you like finishing a flash game in an hour or two, this might not be the game for you.

Elements is an in-depth game you need to spend time in it. I suggest you to at least spend some time in the forum, look at the decks and cards. In the Trainer (http://elementsthegame.com/trainer.html) you can test any deck.

After you gain some more cards (at least more than 1 color) then I hope you can find the fun in this game :)
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Offline NikaZaslavsky

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Re: Is this game worth playing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34476.msg434962#msg434962
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2011, 11:49:38 pm »
Join some events. They make the game so much more fun.
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Offline Dm

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Re: Is this game worth playing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34476.msg434964#msg434964
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2011, 11:52:10 pm »
I started playing three days ago, and since then have seen a lot of crap that just pisses me off as a person enlightened about game design. It's making me very seriously not consider playing the game. First and foremost being the tiny rewards for playing bots. I know it's there to encourage people to PvP more, but the game does not set you up to initially play against other players, heck it barely sets you up to play the bots, and bots are easy.
First of all, welcome to Elements the Game. Secondly... yes, you're going to play the bots. Y'know, they're there for a reason. Mind you, bots are actually pretty easy to fight as you said, and the rewards are bad for the first few, but it's not so bad for AI3 (Elder or Level3 as some call it.) Just go ahead and farm that. Also, if you don't know, when you win the Maximum Health you will get something called "Elemental Mastery", which doubles your electrum gain (40.) Not only that, but you also get the spins, which can be used to get new cards. Ta-da.

Oh yes, meet grinding as well. It just has to be done. Killing bots is essential. You, a enlightened person about game design surely wasn't hoping to come into a game and expect all cards to be available to you from the start, and just go ahead and fight PVP forever, hmm?

Next is the pairing system for non-arena PvP, I'm not getting placed against new players, like would be expected from a system (because Elo's scoring system exists), I'm getting initially placed against people with 500+ games played? Really? This makes the 30:electrum ante for PvP just not worth it. I can throw 30:electrum away just by buying off type cards, which actually improve my ability to play, playing people with that much of an economic advantage means that I'm throwing money away that I could actually use. So I'm pretty much stuck just grinding the bots and their shit rewards so that PvP is a possibility rather than an automatic loss.
"PVP 1. Random Player."

Random. Gogo. Plus, it's all un-upped, so not all games will be an "automatic loss". And, if you fight 500games+ people, when you beat them, you're going to get more electrum and more score, so it's good, no?

Remember the Level3 I talked about a bit earlier? Any deck that can beat it regularly (And there are tons of those, just give this forum a look!) will beat most PVP1 people as well. It's not so bad, and it's not throwing money away. As I have said as well, not all bots have shit reward, and PVP isn't really a automatic loss, so on to the next part.


The arena is worse. Automatically getting locked in 5 copies of "the oracle's" card means that new players have a 1 in 14 chance before entering a match of even being able to compete because they have 1 color their deck actually can support and getting 5 cards that are not that color means 5 card dead-weight, decreasing the odds to gain a useful card on a draw, and wasting space in their hand. I'm also aware it's to improve variety, but it's also an effective lockout for the "Newbie scrubs" to keep them from "tainting" the "pureness" of the arena.
I.. don't think you understand how arena works. First of all, those five Oracle Cards are put in a Arena deck. A Arena Deck is a Deck made by you with the 5 obrigatory oracle cards that must have 35 cards, and you can use skill points to upgrade it as well. Plus, your Arena Deck is immediately placed on a League after you make it, based on your score. And further more, you won't be playing your arena deck, the AI will be (Which is a bot.) Technically speaking, people will go to arena and fight a deck made by a real player, but played by AI. (Bot.)

Dunno why are you pulling numbers out of your rear hole with the "1 in 14" thing. Plus, your normal deck won't need to have those 5 cards. Think you understood arena already, hmm? When you go fight leagues yourself, you use your normal deck - no 5 oracle cards.

Is this game eventually worth it or just more of the same?
I think it's worth it.

All in all.. welcome, and I hope you stick around for a while and get to like the game. It's always good to see a new face.

Offline gumbeh

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Re: Is this game worth playing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34476.msg434965#msg434965
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2011, 11:55:48 pm »
This is an easy game with small, slow rewards. You can't rush your way towards... whatever you think your end goal is.

Play this game as a relaxing break from more challenging games. You seem to be expecting higher reward, which would only make sense in a game with higher risk. You can, eventually, own everything in this game and never fear a significant setback. Ergo, it takes awhile to get there.

seventoo

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Re: Is this game worth playing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34476.msg434967#msg434967
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2011, 11:57:52 pm »
yeah well. i cant exactly remember the time but i m on my 2nd month i think.
I played on and off for the start , just build the fabolous newby-intruduction deck AFTEr  being close to Zero electrum. then slowly bought cards for grabbix/grabbix 1.29.

with that deck i farmed for electrum, ANYWHERE. i got lucky i have to admit. i made some rare spins in gold and plat arena, i went to buy some cards for the unupped FG farming decks, some of the decks re just outdated though, and slooooowly build up those 3 RoLs with  seemingly no hope of ever finding damn Lobotomizers. i got those eventually, and made a bunch of more updates to my RoL/Hope Deck (Awesome guide posted on General discussion) but you re damn right with one thing:

this is a big grind/farming game.

Show me some other game where you do that with Rainbows,SpeedBows, Wrecking Balls and Quadruple Machine guns ! + have a variety of PvP events, all about building  Decks, and wasting some time testing them.

So far i like it. i ll play it on and off, some days more some time less but rest assured, the Arena is not made with 5 Cards from the Oracle to keep the Scrubs out. i just lost with a 12x Upgraded deck vs some Mono Shrieker rush because i couldnt draw any Quanta + Defensive Cards.

Offline ZephyrPhantom

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Re: Is this game worth playing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34476.msg434968#msg434968
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2011, 12:00:29 am »
This is an easy game with small, slow rewards. You can't rush your way towards... whatever you think your end goal is.

Play this game as a relaxing break from more challenging games. You seem to be expecting higher reward, which would only make sense in a game with higher risk. You can, eventually, own everything in this game and never fear a significant setback. Ergo, it takes awhile to get there.
What he said. Elements takes time - a little effort every other day or so and you'll eventually have a large arsenal of cards that you can build several decks with. I suggest looking around the forum for some effective decks you could try using too. Scratch that, since it appears you're looking to get money really quickly. I suggest grinding AI3's a lot in this case, and yes, it gets better.

Once you've gotten enough cards or are feeling up to the challenge, try looking at the PvP Events (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/board,190.0.html), Leagues (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/board,78.0.html) or Tournaments (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/board,77.0.html) this forum's Organizers host. That's where the real PvP of this game takes place. (And if you do well enough in some you'll get a nice  :electrum boost or a rare card reward.)

Offline ElementalDearWatson

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Re: Is this game worth playing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34476.msg434971#msg434971
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2011, 12:06:04 am »
Have you tried looking around the forums to see what advice there is?  These two threads are both a little outdated, but they should get you on the right path:

How to become RICH in 1 Day (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,522.0.html)
From Rags to Riches (How to get rich quick) (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,7192.0.html)

Look around further, there's loads of decks and guides for how to make money.

As for whether the game is worth playing, the only person who can answer that question is you.

Offline ZephyrPhantom

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Re: Is this game worth playing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34476.msg434975#msg434975
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2011, 12:15:50 am »
Have you tried looking around the forums to see what advice there is?  These two threads are both a little outdated, but they should get you on the right path:

How to become RICH in 1 Day (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,522.0.html)
From Rags to Riches (How to get rich quick) (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,7192.0.html)

Look around further, there's loads of decks and guides for how to make money.

As for whether the game is worth playing, the only person who can answer that question is you.
Err... the first tutorial has some really outdated decks.(many of the cards it focused on were nerfed) Just saying.
I'd say Deckbuilding 101 (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,1190.0.html) is the most up-to-date tutorial for some solid anti-AI3 decks. (The Rags to Riches one looks good though)
vNG (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6960.0) and Grabbix (1.29) (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,32117.0.html) have unupped decks you might want to try out.
Some recommended FG decks can be found here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,25609.msg349336#msg349336).

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Re: Is this game worth playing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34476.msg434978#msg434978
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2011, 12:19:01 am »
Hi, welcome to the forums. Let me counter a couple of your points to answer your main question. All of your points are actually interconnected.

First and foremost being the tiny rewards for playing bots. I know it's there to encourage people to PvP more, but the game does not set you up to initially play against other players, heck it barely sets you up to play the bots, and bots are easy.
Initially, yes, the rewards for beating AIs are very little. However, the good majority of electrum early in the game can come from grinding ai3. Every element can make a good mono or near mono very quickly in the game, allowing you to start beating them up by the time you've finished 10 games.

As time passes, you not only get electrum to augment your deck the way you want, but win cards from AI3 that you can attempt to build arena decks around, or sell for more electrum. You can also buy cards from various elements to have a better chance of making a successful arena deck.

I'm assuming you're nearing completion of 500 score, which you can get in less than an hour by grinding, and the reward for it is a rare weapon and the ability to fight False Gods. Three of these rare weapons are centerpieces of decks made to grind FGs - but all these decks need an amount of upgrades, and each upgrade costs 1500 :electrum.

A very daunting number, so how do you get it? By grind, grind, grinding. Once you have a deck that can profit against FGs, you get more upped cards, which sell for more than 1000 :electrum a piece and slightly improve an arena deck with everyone.

Basically, the only true goals in this game are to reach Level 80 in arena to to posses 6 un-upped and non-upped of all cards. In the two years and a half this game has existed, I can name two people who have done this off the top of my head.

But most importantly, Elements is a game, and games are meant to be enjoyed. Whether you find being able to make any deck you want, interacting with people, doing kooky things with your electrum count, etc. fun, Element has the potential to offer it.

Next is the pairing system for non-arena PvP, I'm not getting placed against new players, like would be expected from a system (because Elo's scoring system exists), I'm getting initially placed against people with 500+ games played? Really? This makes the 30 :electrum ante for PvP just not worth it. I can throw 30 :electrum away just by buying off type cards, which actually improve my ability to play, playing people with that much of an economic advantage means that I'm throwing money away that I could actually use. So I'm pretty much stuck just grinding the bots and their shit rewards so that PvP is a possibility rather than an automatic loss.
Once you have a viable PvP deck or two - which you can get quite quickly, possibly with only an hour more of gameplay than the time needed to reach the 500 score quest I mentioned before - you can start going into PvP1 and making a good electrum profit.

However, random PvP quickly becomes nearly worthless, except for fun, as your score gets higher. While it is a fun endeavor, it's no good for long-term profitability. So most players go back to grinding ai3, and FGs when you get to them, with only the occasional random PvP every now and then.

Our forum offers completely different kinds, and arguably different, kinds of PvP. From two themed tournaments every week, to two free-for-all league systems, and individual and team events, to the mighty duet of War and Trials, the forums provide engaging PvP.

(And while we're talking about the forums, we also have non-PvP and pseudo-PvP events, such as World of Elements, the upcoming Forum Brawl, and various competitions.)

The arena is worse. Automatically getting locked in 5 copies of "the oracle's" card means that new players have a 1 in 14 chance before entering a match of even being able to compete because they have 1 color their deck actually can support and getting 5 cards that are not that color means 5 card dead-weight, decreasing the odds to gain a useful card on a draw, and wasting space in their hand. I'm also aware it's to improve variety, but it's also an effective lockout for the "Newbie scrubs" to keep them from "tainting" the "pureness" of the arena.
Every day you spin a card from the oracle, you have the chance to assign different buffs to it, with Level 80 enabling you to give your deck FG credentials. This deck goes into one of the four leagues, depending on your level, and competes with 499 decks against players who fight Arena.

Every win gets you electrum, and your deck being deemed by players as fun and original gets a bit more, but it's really only a little bit of side cash you have the opportunity to get without grinding. Even so, having a deck reach the top ranks of Gold and Platinum stacks up quickly.

As I said, getting cards from all elements enables you to have a wider range of decks you can build in the arena. Many cards can be plopped into a rainbow and do reasonably well, and certain other decks, such as balanced monos and (sadly) firestalls usually succeed as well.

The oracle has another, more useful feature - it gives you a False God that you are guaranteed to fight next, as long as you don't close the tab for it. By knowing the FGs and how to counters them, each day you can build an Oracle Counter, for a higher chance at beating that FG.

Of course some FGs are harder to consistently counter, but others can become guaranteed EMs (elemental masteries), and many of these counters are decks that wouldn't be viable, or even usuable, in other places.


So yes, I would say this game is definitely worth playing. Maybe I'm a bit biased, as I've been here for a year and half and counting, and I'm generally easy to please.

I'm also a bit of a scatterbrain, so feel free to ask me to clarify my post and I'll be glad to. I hope you stay with the game for a while, it's always nice meeting new people to talk to. Chat is also a good place to ask questions, as long as the conversation hasn't derailed to something else :)

Have fun!
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